Have FG finally noticed we have a vacant properties problem?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117997877#Comment_117997877

Out of interest how high should the tax be ?

Anything less than a couple of thousand a year won't move many people to change anything?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117997781#Comment_117997781

I do not inform the government of my whereabouts.

If I am in Timbucktoo for the whole of next year, my house will sit empty and still be my primary residence as far as they are concerned.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117997913#Comment_117997913

Don’t have such a strong view on that. My interest in the subject is more in Trying to understand/debate the very weird reluctance and opposition to it from almost all quarters.

in fairness to YippeeDee, his argument seems to be “its my property and I’ll do what I want with it.” It’s honest, and it’s an argument I can understand.

its all the other stuff about there is no point In introducing it because there are no vacancies/or it’s too complex/or poor granny in her nursing home etc etc that I find frustrating. It’s all nonsense.

this article flies a kite on the amount: https://www.thejournal.ie/vacant-property-tax-3-5441551-May2021/

It is understood that government is assessing if triple or quadruple levels of the Local Property Tax should kick in for apartments that have been vacant for more than six months. 

YipeeDee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117997877#Comment_117997877

Well a little over three years ago I was that idiot.

When political figures and housing campaigners were all over the media imploring people with second properties to rent them out to help ease the housing crisis. I stepped up.

Did what I foolishly believed was my civic duty and let out my property for the first time in 20 odd years.

I never had any previous ambition to be a landlord, the thought had never even crossed my mind.

My property had never stood idle, since moving out of it 20 years ago to the countryside. I used my property in Dublin 2-3 nights per week to break up the long commutes up and down to Dublin to work. I also had multiple members of my family live in my house throughout the same period.

I had zero ambition to change that.

But sucker that I was, I decided to forego my three night weekly commute break and do what I thought was the right thing.

And let out my house in order to try to do my bit.

Well, It didn’t take long for the very same political figures and housing campaigners who had implored people to rent out second properties to start knitting up ideas for laws to strip us of our property rights, along with being screwed sideways on taxes. And of course vilified as a greedy parasite for being a landlord which they had implored us to become in the first place!

If you have a second property and don’t rent it out, in the middle of a housing crisis, you’re a terrible person.

If you have a second property and answer the call to let it out, you’re nothing but a greedy parasitic landlord.

It appears you’re damned if you and damned if you don’t with some people.

Now they’re talking about implementing laws to take away our rights to move our own children into our own property.

And locking landlords into indefinite tenancies, in other words, once you’re a landlord you’re never getting out.

And of course now it’s your punishment tax for those of us who do find a way to escape and take back our properties.

Well sod that. I’ve learned my lesson the hard way.

Under no circumstances will I be:

1. Forced to remain in a profession against my will. (Forced to remain a LL)
2. Have my Constitutional right to have my children live in my own property taken from me.
3. Sell the home that I bought and paid for before half of these politicians and housing campaigners were even born!
4. Pay a single cent more in tax than I am due to pay.

As far as I’m concerned, when I get out of the rental market, I’m done.

I’ll never let out my property again.

Time to find other suckers to step up and be the patsy.

YipeeDee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117997952#Comment_117997952

PS Schmittel, I’m a woman, not a man. But your statement is otherwise correct.

I do believe, “It is my property and I’ll do what I want with it”…because I’ve bloody well paid through the nose for the privilege.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117998018#Comment_117998018

I'm in agreement with most of what you say about treatment of LLs, and I'm on record in other threads of this forum saying a vacancy tax should be accompanied by policies of removing all rent controls, removing conditions to which LLs can terminate a Part IV lease, fast tracking evictions of tenants in rent arrears, removing Central Bank lending rules, allowing non recourse loans and fast tracking repossessions of all properties with mortgages in arrears.

Whilst you label me a communist, I'm hardly Karl Marx.

You say:

Under no circumstances will I be:

1. Forced to remain in a profession against my will. (Forced to remain a LL) - A vacancy tax does not force you to be a LL against your will
2. Have my Constitutional right to have my children live in my own property taken from me. A vacancy tax does not prevent you allowing your children to live in your property. By definition it is occupied.
3. Sell the home that I bought and paid for before half of these politicians and housing campaigners were even born! A vacancy tax does not force you to sell the property, it simply adds a cost to holding it if you choose to keep it empty.
4. Pay a single cent more in tax than I am due to pay. - Taxes increase all the time, and new taxes are created. Nobody s forcing you to pay more tax than you are due.

To refer to "your punishment tax" and wail about the above as if it is part of some sort of burn the rich revolution is ridiculous. It's a fairly simple taxation measure that is not designed to target you and unlikely to cost you anything.

mrslancaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117998160#Comment_117998160

Not sure i understand what is the actual purpose of a vacancy tax...is it just to increase the general revenue pot of county councils, or is it to penalise owners so they either make that property available to the sales or rental market?

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117997307#Comment_117997307

Money talks. That you won't take the risk on property, but are full of ideas what people should do with theirs. Speaks volumes.

The reasons why people leave property empty are many and varied. Unless we know why they are doing that, any proposed solutions are likely to fail. We should ask them, not the people with no experience in property and more importantly not willing to take the risk.

I have no doubt making it punitive to hold on to property will certainly make some sell it. But since they are already paying (and losing) money by not renting but still having the expense of lpt and other costs, they seem well able to weather a tax aswell.

I suspect it all it will do it is further reduce supply in the rental market.

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117998218#Comment_117998218

That you can't discuss actual points I raised but have to resort to having a dig based completely on your imagination speaks even louder.

lossless

No, fg haven't noticed anything new. Neither have SF, ff or any of the adjacent crew.

What they and their friends did notice, however, is that nothing makes money like property. Be it rental, commercial, development, zoning, selling, buying, inheritance or what have you. The balance sheet of this entire nation is dependent on it.

And nothing remotely approaches the fruit extracted from rooftops. Nothing.

The Extraction Process

Step 1.

Increase price pressure. Allow practically unhindered inward migration and firesales to foreign investors. Rub hands briskly.

Step 2.

The defense. Inextricably link any opposition to racism/nationalism/what they're having. That's something the gombeens will swallow and self-perpetuate. Lick lips.

Step 3.

Look busy. Do actually build some extra roofs, but make sure that it's equally matched with step 1. One to one if it can be helped. Laugh.

Step 4.

Falsify problems. Make sure, and this is of the utmost importance, that conversation never, I repeat, never, be turned away from it being a "supply problem". It must always be a "supply" issue. Sprinkle in "vacancy rates", a dash of "density building", a pinch of "zoning". It doesn't matter, just keep em spinning around, dizzy = money. Congratulate each other.

No, I don't think vacancy rates have anything to do with anything. It's fluff. The statistics and policies back up everything I say. CSO, ESRI, county councils, just go and educate yourself.

Expecting the gang to kill their golden goose, to end this lucrative housing crisis, is insanity.

Year after year after year, the same stories going around and around and around. It's hardly a wonder why, now, is it?

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117998160#Comment_117998160

Added to that, if the property is occupied, be that by family or someone who commutes, it isn't vacant. It's occupied.

The main focus of campaigners are those property owners who own multiple places with no intention of renting them out not the people who have gone abroad for a while or the accidental LL or hands tied by fair deal.

It's the empty for decades and allowed to rot, the whole street earmarked for future sale once it can be cleared due to dereliction. It's the shops in town centres allowed to disintegrate driving customers away to more salubrious locations.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117998214#Comment_117998214

It is to try and make the most efficient use of the available housing capacity.

In a housing crisis which is constantly explained by a chronic lack of new build stock, one would normally expect the existing stock to be used near maximum capacity.

Is that the case in Ireland?

Some numbers:

Total Stock of Residential Dwellings - 2,052,429

Average Household Size - 2.75

Capacity = total stock x average household size:

Housing Capacity: 2,052,429 x 2.75 = 5,644,180

Population of Ireland: 5,011,500

Spare Capacity: 632,680

We have a pretty massive spare capacity given the supposed scale of our "housing shortage".

Put simply, the purpose of a vacancy tax is to try and make better use of that spare capacity.

YipeeDee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117998160#Comment_117998160

Apologies Schmittel, perhaps I didn’t make my point clear enough.

When I referred to being forced to remain a LL against my will.

That was with regard to the other laws these housing campaigners and politicians are knitting up to lock landlords into “indefinite tenancies” which I had mentioned earlier in my post.

Ultimately leading to once you make the mistake of becoming a LL you’re never going to get out.

Same with their plans to prohibit LL’s from allowing their own children to move in to their property.

The very same campaigners and politicians that 3 years ago implored citizens with 2nd properties to let them out.

Have done nothing but try to strip property owners of our rights ever since.

This vacant tax punishment law is just another punishment in their arsenal.

You said yourself most people won’t go to the extremes I am prepared to avoid this.

They’ll either pay the tax, sell up or rent out their property.

Again it’s about stripping property owners of their rights.

Furthermore, I no longer have any belief whatsoever that these punitive laws are designed to somehow solve the housing crisis.

You don’t ask someone to do you a favour and then hit them with a hockey stick and vilify them for doing what you asked.

If they want to motivate people to rent out their second properties and help, you don’t implement laws that crucify them for doing what you asked.

This is all about stripping away private property rights. Plain and simple.

The only positive thing I shall be taking away from my time as a landlord is that I know I did my very best for tenants I’ve had. And I’m glad to had such lovely people in my much loved home. I have recently two new lovely tenants and I shall absolutely honour my lease agreement with them.

But after that I’m out, there’ll be one less rental property on the market.

And it will be thanks to every last one of those housing campaigners and politicians and their punitive laws.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117998382#Comment_117998382

Why are you using the average household size (2.75) figure?, that’s the number of people per household, not the amount of space available for people to live in. Where are the variables for room numbers and location in your equation?

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117998426#Comment_117998426

Again, you'll get no argument from me on you points you raise about the treatment of LLs. I was specifically talking about a vacancy tax.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117998452#Comment_117998452

I'm using the average household size figure as over 5 million people and 2 million houses/apartments it is the most logical figure to calculate current national housing capacity. If you have a better suggestion I'm all ears?

We're talking about taxing vacant units, not vacant rooms. For the purposes of the point I was making - responding to mrslancaster - room numbers and location are irrelevant.

YipeeDee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117997704#Comment_117997704

1. I’m not your “bro” I am a woman.
2. You had made previous references to “people hoarding property” and owners either “using it or losing it. This led me to believe that the vacant house beside you is owned by a private citizen who purchased his / her own property. Rather than a state owned council property. When it comes to Stste owned properties, mismanaged and left idle. I am absolutely in agreement with you. There’s circa 5000 of them empty the length and breadth of the country. If the government actually wanted to help solve the housing crisis those 5000 properties could be quickly and relatively cheaply turned around to put roofs over heads and go a long way to taking pressure off the system. But instead of that they’re busy knitting up ever more punitive laws to strip private property owners of their rights to the properties they’ve bought and paid for.

mrslancaster

The councils who have lots of vacant dwellings around the country will hardly have to pay it, so it appears the purpose of a vacancy tax is to force private residential property owners to either become landlords, or increase the supply of places for sale.

Why not restrict citizens to ownership of a single dwelling then? Afaik that would be unconstitutional.

So, a vacancy tax, well, that'll teach 'em...they should never have spent their own after tax money on a product that was freely available for any citizen to buy...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117998382#Comment_117998382

ednwireland

Are council properties included? I remember reading councils were tardy about returning their own properties.

YipeeDee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117998160#Comment_117998160

Would just like to clarify one other point you made, with reference to some “burn the rich revolution”.?

For the record, I am in no way rich. I was born and bred in a working class area of Dublin and every stick that I own I worked my ass off for and paid my taxes on.

Its not about just burning “rich” people, it’s about burning every property owner who has busted their butts to buy their own property. Nobody should be obligated to account for their absence from the property they’ve paid for and own. They have a right to be able to come and go from their own property as they see fit.

And if the State wants to take that right away and make people account for absences from their own property, well then let the State pay a share in that property owners mortgage payments!

Then and only then should a property owner have to account to the State about their absence from their property.

Otherwise, the State should mind it’s own business and with 5000 empty council properties around the country clearly it needs to do just that.

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117998507#Comment_117998507

I apologise for misgendering you albeit in a 'internet speak' way where cool story bro is a catch all phrase.

The post I was responding to was riddled with assumptions which were completely incorrect and had nothing to do with the points I raised.

You were triggered by one fairly inconsequential sentence.

As my post was discussing vacancy tax there was little point in distracting from that with a tangent about the absolute hames most LAs are making of managing their housing stock. I agree with you on that score. I was, however, highly critical of LAs in general over their failure to collect outstanding taxes. So much so I suggested that task be handed over to Revenue.

'Hoarding' would generally apply to people with more than one vacant NPPR. Plus, if the properties are occupied, even as holiday homes, they are not vacant, and I would certainly hope none are derelict.

I also made it clear that I was aslo discussing retail units, heritage sites etc.

Lastly, the house that set you off on flights of fanciful was owned by an owner occupier, we bought at the same time. He emigrated and rented the house out to very good tenants but was reluctant to pay for any upkeep - not that he did much while he lived there - so evicted them to sell the house. Which took over a year. The local authority bought it. Moved a family in, moved the family out as there were rats. Now it's been empty for a further 2 years. And has rats.

So now my dogs are killing rats in my garden because the house next door has been empty for a total of 3 years minus 2 months.

So yeah, I'm not big on a person can do what they like with their property if it means I end up with rats in mine.

YipeeDee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117998587#Comment_117998587

Respectfully, it’s the State that has left that property vacant.

They are responsible to sort out the rat infestation.

Perhaps I’m not interpreting your words correctly here and forgive me if I am wrong.

But it seems (in this instance) like you want to punish private property owner with yet another punitive tax for the sins of a State owned entity?

I can understand being pissed off with a property owner (in this case the State) who allows their property become a hazard to those around them.

But to punish every private citizen who may decide at some point to leave their property vacant for an extended period of time is totally unjust.

Citizens are paying more than enough taxes already for the privilege of owning their own property.

You’re taxed when you buy it, you’re taxed whilst paying for it, you’re already taxed every year for having it, and when you die your kids are taxed and on and on it goes.

And you want people to have to pay even more tax just for their right to be able to leave their property and take a break from an adult lifetime busting their butts paying taxes?

No, just no.

YipeeDee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117997898#Comment_117997898

Exactly, a bedroom tax, no doubt that’ll be next on their agenda.

FFS Best get handy with a sledgehammer we’ll be needing to knock through walls and get rid of the guest room next.

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117998717#Comment_117998717

You are misunderstanding.

I want the owners of vacant properties to pay the taxes due. Not an extra tax. The tax that is already on the books. The failure of LAs to determine whether such taxes are due and collect them means it would be better for Revenue to take over.

Where a person has several vacant properties, let's say 5 +, taxes should be increased as they are hoarding a valuable commodity in a time of scarcity. Onus on the owner to provide proof they are not hoarding.

I believe those who allow properties to become derelict, often creating a risk to the public, should be forced to ensure these properties are properly maintained. If they cannot or will not do so CPO orders should be fast tracked.

It is insane that there are derelict properties in this country and no one seems to know who owns them when it comes to paying for maintenance but when it comes to selling for development there's no issue. Or when a CPO order appears.

You, and I, and all if us who pay our LPT are forking out for the works to stabilise these buildings.

There's about 7 3 story retail/flats properties on Cork's North Main Street in advanced decay. The street has had to be closed Several times for emergency work. It wasn't that long ago they were functioning shops. Paying rates. Employing tax paying people. People lived in the flats.

So yes, I think the owner's of places like these should be 'punished.

You seem to think I haven't burst my butt to buy my home, that I don't pay my way, that I don't have anyone to leave my house to. You are wrong. I also know my son will not have to pay a penny unless property prices go insane and they fail to raise the threshold for inheritance from a parent.

My grandchildren are in line to inherit 3 houses between 2 of them. I think paying 33% CGT on 1 of the 3 is fair enough personally, they will still have a house free and clear each.

Flinty997

Feels like a land grab as a political sop while continuing to do little to take the heat out of the market or increase supply where it's need.

The wolf doesn't want little red riding hood. They want Grandma's house.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117998771#Comment_117998771

This is just hysteria, nobody is proposing a bedroom tax.

A vacancy tax is proposed to tackle this sort of thing - block of 54 apartments for sale in Finglas. Prospect Hill built in 2005.

https://www.daft.ie/commercial-property-for-sale/prospect-hill-finglas-dublin-11/3432231

From the sales brochure:

"The remaining 28 units are vacant and available for immediate occupation. 26 of the vacant units are capable of achieving full Market Rent, having never been let and occupied on a temporary basis only"

26 apartments that have never been available on the rental market in the 16 years since they were built. And we're told we have a housing crisis!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117998968#Comment_117998968

Did you check who owned them and why they weren’t let? Seems the place has a history and wasn’t finished, Nama/State own and are selling the property.

https://dublinpeople.com/news/dublin/articles/2021/04/16/58-idle-finglas-apartments-still-idle-after-16-years-of-nothing/

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/commercial-property/nama-puts-finglas-residential-rental-portfolio-for-sale-at-14-5m-1.4606680?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fbusiness%2Fcommercial-property%2Fnama-puts-finglas-residential-rental-portfolio-for-sale-at-14-5m-1.4606680

https://www.dublininquirer.com/2019/03/13/a-block-of-58-social-homes-empty-for-years

Flinty997

Now that is funny...

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117999015#Comment_117999015

This was discussed a few months ago on the chat thread. Portfolio for sale was NAMA but not the same as the unfinished DCC ones as in the People article as far as I recall.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117999172#Comment_117999172

Yes it was, but the irony of you using it as an example of unlet, vacant properties which should be taxed by the Government seems lost on you.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117999198#Comment_117999198

Not in the slightest, NAMA should be top of the list to be taxed.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117999243#Comment_117999243

And the State is selling the portfolio to a private investor so that it will be brought into use. Perhaps you should have picked a more suitable example to make your point.

YipeeDee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117998819#Comment_117998819

Okay On your first point, wanting owners of vacant properties to pay their existing due taxes.

I’ve no figure on how many of them haven’t paid their existing taxes but I do know even if they haven’t paid as yet, they’re just delaying the inevitable they’re not going to be able to sell, transfer or bequeath their property without paying their due taxes. So either they’ll end up paying it, or their children will have to pay it. The Revenue is always going to get their pound of flesh.

With regard to people who have 5+ properties. Likewise, I’ve no figure for them or for how many of those properties may or who may be hoarding. But as far as I’m concerned, if their property is not causing a hazard to public safety, it’s their business what they do with their property. If they’d the money to go out and purchase 5 properties to leave to their kids and / or grandkids, fair play to them.

And although I personally, do not like to see any property left standing idle, if they don’t wish to rent out their property that is their right.

That said, I do concede, if we were having this conversation three years ago, I may have erred on side of trying to encourage them to rent out their properties until their kids / grandkids came of age to take over the properties themselves.

But given what I’ve learned during my three short years of being a LL in Ireland between the ever changing crazy legislation, high taxation and no protection. Right now, I think they’re dead right, they’d want to be nuts to let a property.

With regard to derelict retail properties in towns and villages. (There are a few in my nearest village too)

They're an eye sore and I would absolutely agree that their owners should be obligated to ensure they are not a hazard to the public and because they are on the Main Street of the village, a main thoroughfare at least the front of their building should be maintained and tended to in keeping with adjoining buildings. I can’t be certain but I think there may already be a dereliction tax?

But again, it’s not my business if they want to leave the inside vacant. That’s their right.

No matter what way I look at it, penalising an Irish citizen for being absent from their own property is unjust as far as I’m concerned.

Either take away the right of every Irish citizen to be absent from their property and prohibit every citizen from coming and going as they please, or none at all.

Either all Irish citizens have the same Constitutional property rights or they don’t.

And never, at any time should any citizen be forced, coerced, or bullied into any profession against their will.

If the price of purchasing a property includes being forced into becoming a landlord and renting out that property at some later date, the same should hold true for every Irish citizen buying a property.

YipeeDee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117998968#Comment_117998968

First of all take a breath there ain’t nobody “hysterical” here.

My comment was in response DubCount’s point, which is a logical progression from what’s being proposed here today.

May I remind you of the words of former Taoiseach Enda Kenny back in the 90’s

QUOTE: “"It is morally wrong, unjust and unfair to tax a persons home" - Enda Kenny, 1994 .

And here you are today, trying to convince me that the tax a former Taoiseach once considered “unjust, unfair and morally wrong” is now, not enough to be paying. Now citizens should be punished with even more unjust taxation just to maintain their right to be able to leave their own property and should have to explain their absence from their own property to the State.!

Given the progression from Enda Kenny’s words in 1994 to today, I don’t think it’s so much of a stretch to predict the probability of a spare bedroom tax coming next.

With regard to the apartment complex advert you shared.

Is the owner of those apartments a private citizen? Or a company ?

YipeeDee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117998968#Comment_117998968

No need to answer my question Schmittel, I’m just reading up on the history of that apartment complex that you shared.

(Thanks to Dav010 for the informative links.)

So the owner of those properties is actually the State / Nama, and you claim the proposed vacant property tax would “tackle this sort of thing”.

So you want to State to impose the vacant punishment tax on itself? 😂

Well, at last we’ve found common ground.

I couldn’t agree more, and while they’re at it, punishment tax themselves some more for the 5000 vacant council properties the length and breadth of the country.

10,000 citizens homeless, and circa 5000 vacant council properties, a four year old could figure out the solution to that one.

They should get their own house in order before coming after Irish citizens for even more punitive taxes for simply maintaining their right to leave their own property if or when they choose.

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117999288#Comment_117999288

You are arguing if people can afford to hoard they have the right to hoard.

Would that apply to fuel?

Food?

Medical supplies?

All would be a person's property after all. If they can afford to buy loads and not use it apparently that is their right.

I disagree. I see it as the same mentality as price gouging/fixing. It is exploitative. The role of the State is to protect all citizens, not just those with money to hoard resources.

I am also not sure you realise the extent of the problem. It is far beyond a 'few retail units in the village' - it is endemic.

There are more vacant properties with 2 km of Cork City GPO than homeless people in the entire country. Literally thousands in a city with a population of less than 200k people.

You were interested in reading the about the flats for sale - may I ask if you read this thread? https://twitter.com/frank_oconnor/status/1275900684186062849

It's the one started on Cork and it is an eye opener - for those who want their eyes opened to the dereliction all around us.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118000128#Comment_118000128

Not only is YipeeDee arguing it, but he/she has the benefit of the Irish Constitution to support his/her argument. There is no cap on the amount of food, fuel nor medicine you can store.

Have you researched to see who owns those properties and why are they derelict?

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118000200#Comment_118000200

That is one interpretation of the Constitution - the one advanced by an Attorney General with an extensive property portfolio. And even then the State can, and has, acted to CPO properties. Therefore there are exceptions for the public good.

You are claiming property rights are absolute, they are not. While they may be classified as fundamental rights - all fundamental rights can be limited or restricted in the public good.

"The Constitution declares that the State will vindicate the property rights of every citizen. This means that you have a right to own, transfer and inherit property. You also have the right to bequeath property upon your death. The State guarantees to pass no law to abolish these rights.

Article 43 acknowledges that these rights ought to be regulated by the principles of social justice. This means that the State may pass laws limiting your right to private property in the interests of the common good. The most common form of limitation is taxation on ownership, transfer and inheritance.

Other examples of restrictions or limitations on your right to own property include town and regional planning, protection of national monuments, compulsory acquisition of land."

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/irish_constitution_1/constitution_fundamental_rights.html

Hoarding property to the point it becomes derelict during a housing crisis is not in the public interest and therefore not an absolute right. The Constitution is clear the State has the right to act - taxation and CPO are two often used options.

Before wheeling out the Constitution perhaps research it a bit better.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118000247#Comment_118000247

There is a fundamental difference in your interpretation of what is in the best interests of the public, and that which is allowed and protected by the constitution, and that could not be clearer than in relation to the purchase of property. Under CPOs, doesn’t the State have to pay the market value of the property? Have you considered the costs to the State in buying all those properties in Cork and all the other towns/cities, and whether they represent value?

From my own experience of buying a derelict, town centre protected structure and turning it into a large health Clinic. It took years to close the purchase due to issues with the title, planning applications, refusals, re-submitting, then building the Clinic under the watchful eyes of the planners to ensure the structure retained its protected status. To someone such as yourself it was a vacant derelict eyesore during those years.

So do your own research, find out why they are derelict. Incidentally, it’s great to see Moores Hotel is finally being redeveloped and a pity the Harbour development isn’t going ahead due to issues with planning and finance/projected earnings.

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118000304#Comment_118000304

I never suggested the State doesn't pay for the property so you are arguing against a point I never made. I would say that the cost of any work to stabalise property be deducted from the price.

Have you considered the cost to the State of HAP? Vulture funds not paying tax? Long-term leases? It seems the funds are there for some projects.

You trotted out the Constitution in support of the argument that property rights are absolute. You were incorrect. It says in the Constitution the State can restrict property rights in the public good. Therefore the absolutist argument is void. Regardless of why properties are derelict. Part of acting to deal with the problem would include fast-track planning for restoration/renovation projects. It needs political will. While people deny there is a problem or claim the Constitution prevents action it let's govt (whatever party is in power) off the hook.

And yes, hopefully Moore's Hotel wouldn't shed anymore render on top of pedestrians.

YipeeDee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118000128#Comment_118000128

If the guy has the money and wants to buy 5 houses to give to his kids / grandkids, as long as the properties are not a danger to the public.

And he’s not doing anything illegal inside in them. That’s his right.

If you want to put a limit on how many properties an Irish citizen is allowed to buy. Simple. Have it written in to law.

I have repeatedly said that I, personally don’t like seeing properties standing idle but if a citizen doesn’t want to rent out their property, that’s their right too.

No citizen should be bullied, forced or coerced into a profession against their will.

You say that I don’t realise the extent of the problem.

That may be true, I said from the beginning I have no figures for the claims you are presenting.

How many citizens are there in Ireland that own 5 properties (as in your example)?

How many citizens own the properties falling in to disrepair ?

Can you present me with some solid data on this please?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118000337#Comment_118000337

I “trotted out the Constitution” to support my argument that there is nothing to prohibit the buying/hoarding of properties, if you have a link to any legislation that prohibits that, please post it.

What I posted in relation to CPOs was the consideration of the cost of buying derelict buildings/rebuilding them and the value for money that offers. It is not just a case of the State deciding to buy a derelict property and that is it, the owner has the right to object and seek arbitration.

CPOs have been primarily used for road widening or infrastructure projects like the Luas, in the case of town properties it has been used for dangerous/condemned buildings. Can it be used to buy a building the owners plan to develope?, I doubt it as any public interest would likely be countered by the owners plan to return it to use. I used my own experience as an example, to someone like yourself who knows nothing about the building it looked like a derelict eyesore, but my plan was to develope it, could the LA have CPO’d it in the public interest or would they have? Not a hope.

So rather than quoting a Twitter page, go find out what the plans for those buildings are.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118000550#Comment_118000550

Of course somebody can buy as many properties as they please, and also if they want to leave those properties empty then of course that's their right. And as far as I'm aware the government is not proposing that these rights should be abolished.

But it also the government's right to apply taxes to that property if they wish. So the only change would be it costs extra to leave a property empty. You're still perfectly entitled to exercise that right.

This is not trampling on somebody's constitutional or human rights.

YipeeDee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118000632#Comment_118000632

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118000632#Comment_118000632

My comment was in response to specific points Bannasaide made.

And also previous points he had made earlier in our conversation.

I suggest you read back the full conversation to understand the context in which I was making my responses.

With regard to the vacant punishment tax that is being proposed.

I have already addressed this multiple times previously.

Citizens are already paying tax every which way for the property they own.

We are taxed when we buy a property, taxed whilst we are paying for it, taxed to just have it, and when we die our children are hit with tax and on and on it goes.

The additional tax being proposed here is to actually tax citizens even more just so they can maintain their right to leave their own property. Every citizen has the right to come and go from their own property as they please. They should not be penalised with a punishment tax for just leaving their own floor. And they should not have to explain their absence from their own property to anyone. If the State wants a say in a private citizens movements with regard to their own property. Well then the State should be paying a share in that citizens mortgage.

Furthermore as I said to you earlier in our conversation.

If the State wants to impose a punishment tax on citizens leaving their own property.

They should take a look in the mirror.

With circa 5000 State owned properties lying idle the length and breadth of the country, in the middle of a housing crisis which is their job to resolve. If anyone deserves a punishment tax, it’s the State itself.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118000769#Comment_118000769

@YipeeDee

The additional tax being proposed here is to actually tax citizens even more just so they can maintain their right to leave their own property. Every citizen has the right to come and go from their own property as they please. They should not be penalised with a punishment tax for just leaving their own floor. And they should not have to explain their absence from their own property to anyone.

But this is absolute nonsense. If a vacancy tax exempts PPRs, the state is not imposing "a punishment tax for just leaving their own floor" or asking people "to explain their absence from their own property to anyone"

Their absence is already explained by the very fact they live somewhere else!!

Interesting article in today’s Times, HSE currently has 300 vacant buildings, double the number 3 yrs ago.

YipeeDee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118000825#Comment_118000825

I notice you have no response to the fact that State itself has circa 5000 council properties lying idle right now. In the middle of a housing crisis that is their job to resolve. No response to idea that the State should impose this vacancy punishment tax upon itself?

Instead you want to pursue the private citizen who has busted their arse to purchase their property and paid their taxes all their adult life.

Whether they’ve purchased just one home for themselves or multiple homes in order to bequeath to their multiple children and give them a start in their lives. Property that those children will most likely also be paying taxes on to inherit It is still their own property that they have bought and paid for and are already paying their due taxes on.

At no time when I purchased my property did I read anywhere in the terms.

Thou must not leave this property for more than six months without a letter to the teacher explaining your absence.

Thou may be forced to become a landlord against your will at some point in the future.

And if you refuse to enter into a profession against your will, the State can and will force you to sell to them to them the property you’ve busted your butt paying for and you wish to bequeath to your children. Which will also mean you’re going to be punished by getting screwed on Capitol gains tax which will most likely leave you unable to purchase another property to leave to your child.

lossless

A magic wand is waved and every empty room in the country is made available for purchase or rent.

When that surplus is soaked up quicker than lightning and the housing crisis remains right on track...what then?

At what point are people going to realise the basics, that Ireland is smaller than earth, and that demand, not supply, is the problem?

mrslancaster

Seems there will be a new tax on zoned land suitable for residential development. Its to encourage house building & the development of small sites in towns. Local authorities to publish maps before it starts, lead-in time 2 years for land zoned before jan 22 and 3 years for after that.. Tax of 3% based on the market value of the land and self-asessed, administered by Revenue.

Exclusions are dwelling houses and their gardens, amenities and infrastructure. This new tax to replace the vacant site levy.

according to this the zone land tax will actually be kinder to land hoarders than what it replaces:

https://www.businesspost.ie/houses/zoned-land-tax-will-cut-penalty-for-hoarding-and-wont-take-effect-for-two-to-three-years-20f832f8