Remote working - the future?

billyhead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118120669#Comment_118120669

Indefinitely is probably until February. The government will want civil servants back in offices asap because food/drink and pub businesses in the City Center are on their knees.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118120886#Comment_118120886

well, those businesses that are struggling need to think about reinventing themselves. Covid has only accelerated a flexible working trend that was starting to gather momentum anyway…..it’s not created anything new.

Electric Sheep

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118090895#Comment_118090895

I am guessing she is lower lower middle management. That is the only class I have seen or heard enthusiastic about a return to the office. They are afraid that they will be redundant if WFH continues to be the norm.

Sunny Disposition

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118121017#Comment_118121017

I can't see how the change to remote working can not see a lot of city centre businesses being killed off. There just won't be the footfall any more. The growth areas for cafes, restaurants, newsagents are in smaller towns or villages now.

City centres will be doing well to ever get 50% of the 2019 office workers back. Overall this change is surely good for society, but there are going to be losers too.

It'd be pointless the government trying to incentivise office work though. Remote work and changing spending patterns are just a new reality.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123782#Comment_118123782

Yeah, there will be some businesses in high cost locations that will fail, but there will be also be a lot of growth in the smaller towns and villages which is arguably where some of these lower paid jobs are more valuable. The small town I lived in saw 5 new cafes open over the lockdowns and they are thriving to this day

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118120886#Comment_118120886

You do realise that the member of the government plus the Dail come from the country and represent rural regions etc... that have seen a revival over the past while right?

billyhead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118128208#Comment_118128208

So you're saying they will want remote working indefinitely across the civil service?

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118128208#Comment_118128208

I was talking to a friend who works in a local financial services firm today. They're finding it harder than ever to recruit, because candidates want to keep their Dublin salary and career opportunities, while moving home to Galway, Limerick etc. They've also had more people than usual start and quit again within a few weeks/months because they got a better offer.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118128528#Comment_118128528

So what? There is no loss for the company in that case - a Dublin company will pay "Dublin wages" (whatever that means - wage disparity is nothing like UK and the London premium), so there is no increase in cost and no reduction in productivity. Back in 2019 did these employers care where the person is commuting from? Pre COVID, if a person was commuting from Buncrana to Dublin every day, would they get less because they live rurally? Or would the employer more likely simply not care?

As I said before, I'm still struggling to understand the problem you have with WfH. You might enlighten us as to what your problem is, instead of just posting general negativity regarding it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118128528#Comment_118128528

Those companies that are struggling to retain their people are just going to have to take a look at themselves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118128528#Comment_118128528

A "Financial services" company that is nitpicking over galway salaries versus Dublin salaries? No wonder they are losing staff.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129026#Comment_118129026

There absolutely is a disparity: look at the salary surveys published by every major recruiter, and your will find at least Dublin vs Rest of Ireland. (Some break rest down even further.) I've made a small snip of one page of the latest from Sigmar's guide, pic below. (https://www.sigmarrecruitment.com/blog/2020/12/salary-guide-2021).

There may not be an increase in cost for Dublin companies, but there likely will be for others, who can no longer hire from the pool of people who want to move closer to their homeplace, and will take a lower salary in return.

My "problem" with WFH is not with WFH. It's with simplistic thinking which says universally wonderful. Yes, it has some good features. But it also has some challenges which WFO doesn't have, which most here want to pretend don't exist.

It's a lot more work for managers, who have to go hunting for evidence that work is being done, or to diagnose the problem when it isn't. It transfers the cost of property from the employer to the employee, and will need changes to a whole bunch of technology, health and safety and operational procedures to stay legally compliant and manage risk. Yes - we all(*) coped since March 2020 without this, but at a cost to the amount of risk companies are taking. Some of this cannot be carried when there's not a public health emergency to justify it.

(*) and I know for a fact that not everyone coped. Many of you won't even know which of your colleagues are struggling, but I can say with 100% certainly that SOME are.

This paragraph from Mrs OB perplexes me:

It's a lot more work for managers, who have to go hunting for evidence that work is being done, or to diagnose the problem when it isn't. It transfers the cost of property from the employer to the employee, and will need changes to a whole bunch of technology, health and safety and operational procedures to stay legally compliant and manage risk. Yes - we all(*) coped since March 2020 without this, but at a cost to the amount of risk companies are taking. Some of this cannot be carried when there's not a public health emergency to justify it.

*More work for managers - well tough

*Property costs to employees - So you are concerned about employees as well as managers? Very magnanimous of you.

*Will need changes to a wealth of technologies - I dont remember my employer being responsible for my ergonomic, or health and safety when getting the Luas to CityWest every morning.

There is a host of technologies in place for a wide range of risks and those technologies have been around for a long time.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118134572#Comment_118134572

Most understand that instead of employers being responsible for H&S in a single building, they are now responsible in multiple workplaces which are not of their making. How you travel to your place of work (Luas) remains your business, regardless of whether you work in an office or remotely. And if managers struggle to ensure remote workers are doing their work, that will not auger well for long term remote working. Remote working on a mass scale is comparatively new, there will be a lot to work out, and it may not work for every business, so one view cannot be applied accross the board.

Backstreet Moyes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129026#Comment_118129026

The majority of her problems with it seem to be problems a manager might face, despite claiming she is not a manager.

So it would be nice to know why a non manager would want to force everyone into the office.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118134572#Comment_118134572

Indeed. There are two issues with it

1. it assumes that WFH is new. It isn’t. I’ve been hybrid working 2/3 days at home for nearly a decade now, even when technology was nowhere what it is now. H&S has been achieved, in my experience, through training and self assessment
2. ‘more work for managers’ should be rephrased as ‘more work for bad managers’. There is no reason as to why it should be harder to manage productivity remotely compared to in the office unless you are a micromanager who needs to see a bum on a seat to be confident that there is work being done

Electric Sheep

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118134556#Comment_118134556

Hunting for evidence that work is being done? It would be very evident very quickly in my work place if work was not getting done, we have deadlines and dependencies. Do you work for the Civil Service by any chance?

Would like to it a little perspective on this from a point of view of somebody who was a H&S rep and responsible for employees and the public in my workplace. I worked in the public service, where H&S was theoretically taken very seriously, although I have mentioned elsewhere in forums why too often it has been pure lip service & box ticking. In principal the structures are there and fundamental, and in a lesser management role (responsible half the week for running a public premises & second in line remainder of time) my top responsibility was to oversee its safe operation, a role I took very seriously and where I made many interventions.

During lockdown staff were deployed to work remotely, mainly contributing to online sociaL media content and informational write-ups. Senior management, of course, took up the entire responsibility for H&S in those circumstances, and it was an essential temporary measure and insurance covered the stopgap. Whilst undergoing formal H&S training for supervisors and for being a H&S Rep, I learned to make risk assessments and the scope of responsibility of the employer, the scope of which which covers their working time as well as any time spent on the premises of the employer. Getting to work, what you consume on the work premises (unless provided by employers) has nothing to do with the responsibility of the employer. You must conduct yourself in a responsible manner both during your working time and on the employer’s premises.

The WFH H&S scenario can be extrapolated from the above, with the exception that you are not on your employer’s premises. The employer is accountable for your H&S whilst you are on working time, so it is important to define your working time by logging on/off etc, which most employers require anyway.

Companies are liable to end up having successful legal action taken against them if they have not demonstrated to have exercised due care. Sometimes that’s a bit of box-ticking, as a good portion of the responsibility is on the part of the employer. Eg, if they place equipment poorly and trip over it and suffer an injury. Given that example it would be the responsibility of the employer to ensure the initial set-up is safe, and may require some evidence, be it an inspection or photographs etc. Then if employee moves the equipment to an awkward position and suffers a broken wrist whilst breaking their fall after tripping over it (and is unable to work or even sues because of injury) the employer may be able to de y payment/defend (in case of legal action etc) by demonstrating that the employee had significantly contributed to accident.

Because of the aforesaid, companies are likely to make regular inspections (probably virtual) mandatory, which would probably be a sensible solution.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118135359#Comment_118135359

It is likely that Mrs OB, is, like I admit to being, a public service worker who has some perspective on management. The public service has traditionally had excellent workers and those few who are eternally carried by the former. That goes for managers too, some of them lazy and lousy and some good. The good workers in the public service have to be pretty damned good indeed to make it work at all.

With latest news about Covid I believe that remote working is definitely going to be an accelerating norm, but as I pointed out in previous posts it does take a lot of adaption by organisations, most especially when it comes to rather important insurance matters and also supervision (especially in certain areas) that work is being delivered for the payment given. As others have indicated, in many areas, it is very obvious if an individual’s due share of the work isn’t being completed.

Insurance companies will adapt, risk assessors themselves can assess by video link, and it will work out. Currently there is a fairly steep learning curve, and no doubt there will be some legal cases which will direct practices in future. Where there’s an injury there’s a litigant, and no shortage of them in this country.

zom

So I presume there are only managers who left in the offices nowdays? I presume it is just for them all those lights in empty office buildings lid each day till late nights hours (Dublin here)?

XD

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118184942#Comment_118184942

Why? No reason for them to be in the office either if everyone else is at home. Though if you have an investment in office rentals, might be time to reconsider it...

Mrs OBumble

Have you ever seen a manager open and scan the mail, or print, frank and envelop the day's post?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118188062#Comment_118188062

Post?

storker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118188062#Comment_118188062

Hence the old rule that the lower down on the totem pole you are, the more you're missed if you don't turn up for work.

Hotblack Desiato

How else could golf clubs survive?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118188062#Comment_118188062

Literally no. Except for personal deliveries and trade magazines. The interweb thingy is good for the bills and invoices you know

Hotblack Desiato

I have seen this, but only because they got something sent to work they didn't want the mrs to know about

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118188459#Comment_118188459

But its shyte for proving that you've followed the legally required processes to make sure people have their rights.

I will guarantee that most organisations do still deal with some volume of hard copy mail. They may be very low for ecommerce based businesses, but they will not be zero. (Evidence: An Post are still doing deliveries, and most of their mail is business-generated.)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118193103#Comment_118193103

But its shyte for proving that you've followed the legally required processes to make sure people have their rights.

Outside of archaic practices among the legal professions I can't think of anything where using the internet to communicate, rather than snail mail, would result in the removal of a persons rights

Care to elaborate?