Forced to work from home

GreeBo

oisinog wrote: »

You deflected the question I asked you what do you see as the downsides from working from home?

You seem to be here for an argument and have avoided answering questions directly.

If you had actually read the thread you would have seen lots of examples, but at a minimum there is additional cost associated with WFH.

floorpie

floorpie wrote: »

Apple in the US are pulling everyone back to office in September. They're allowing 2 weeks remote per year, and WFH on Wednesdays and Fridays for some. The decision to define remote days and split them in the week is interesting.

I think this is the type of rhetoric you can expect over the next year (corporate-speak trigger warning):


https://www.theverge.com/2021/6/2/22465846/apple-employees-return-office-three-days-week-september

My large company has stated we will be strictly hybrid, going forward.

floorpie

Deleted User wrote: »

My large company has stated we will be strictly hybrid, going forward.

On paper Apple's approach is hybrid, but it seems that they've made it awkward on purpose (?)

GreeBo

Deleted User wrote: »

I know exactly how many staff the OP stated there are and how many desks his employer intended to provide, and its been quoted multiple times.

You just want an argument for the sake of it.

Time to apply the ignore button.

I see you ignored my point about the contention for said desks, which is kinda the critical aspect.:rolleyes:

I'm not here for an argument, I'm here to explain the other side which yourself and others are determined to downplay as negativity.

floorpie

floorpie wrote: »

On paper Apple's approach is hybrid, but it seems that they've made it awkward on purpose (?)

Yeah, seems that way. I think it all depends on whether companies want to save money on office leasing. My company clearly does.

floorpie

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah, seems that way. I think it all depends on whether companies want to save money on office leasing. My company clearly does.

Yeah there's no way Apple would let Cupertino HQ sit dormant. They've hinted at a return for a while also.

floorpie

floorpie wrote: »

Yeah there's no way Apple would let Cupertino HQ sit dormant. They've hinted at a return for a while also.

Yeah, that was my thoughts when I read that. Though in Ireland they have been offering WFH options for customer service staff for years now, so who knows what will happen over here?

oisinog

irelandrover wrote: »

I'll also answer this. These are my benefits to working in the office.

I liked my colleagues. Work was also a social aspect,, not my only social aspect.

It was a 12 minute cycle or a 25 minute run so no travel expenses. In fact I got paid 19cent a kilometer so I lose money by not commuting.

Once A month we had a company meeting with beer provided afterwards and we were paid for this.

Air Conditioned office during the summer months. Don't have to heat my house during winter months.

Much easier to train new staff as they could shadow rather than me having to take time to call them.

Free tea and coffee at the office.

Quite often I'd overhear something from another project that I'd already dealt with so problems were avoided instead of solved after the fact.

I got 2 hours paid to visit the doctor or dentist.

Easier switch off from work when I close laptop and walk out the door.

Easier to work on my wife's day off with our child as she couldn't just knock on my office door.

Didnt have to dedicate a room in my house to a home office.

Benefits to working from home,
I'm home to accept packages

I can occasionally finish early without people knowing

Look you points are fair enough can I ask though why wouldnt you get your 2 hour paid to visit the doctor or dentist in the office and not at home (not trying to be awkard or anything just courious)

irelandrover

oisinog wrote: »

Look you points are fair enough can I ask though why wouldnt you get your 2 hour paid to visit the doctor or dentist in the office and not at home (not trying to be awkard or anything just courious)

Because it needs to be tracked carefully and the way they do it is clocking in and out. They'll probably fix this but for the moment it's not possible

oisinog

GreeBo wrote: »

If you had actually read the thread you would have seen lots of examples, but at a minimum there is additional cost associated with WFH.

You talk about costs, no matter where you work there will always be a cost to you.

Tell me over the last year how much more has it cost you to work from home against how much it cost you to go to work.

I still think you are avoiding the question

oisinog

irelandrover wrote: »

Because it needs to be tracked carefully and the way they do it is clocking in and out. They'll probably fix this but for the moment it's not possible

Ah fair enough.

You have made several good points why it suits you to work in the office, I think you said earlier you were in Holland so hopefully it starts to open for you to return

JohnChadwick

Wondering what kind of jobs are you guys WFH'ing in? Would be delighted to be forced to WFH myself.

bridest

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

So look for a job located close to where you want to live.

I am, well in a smaller town than Dublin. It's the kind of job that I can't work from home forever. A job I love , a city, Dublin, that I don't love

irelandrover

irelandrover wrote: »

Because it needs to be tracked carefully and the way they do it is clocking in and out. They'll probably fix this but for the moment it's not possible

Do companies actually do this? I find it insane. I have a job to do. Takes me was more than my contracted hours. And I just do it in whatever way works for me....whenever and however that is. Yesterday I did more than 12 hours work. Today I’ve done barely 5, and heading out now for a run. (And that’s not a WFH thing.....that’s how it was in the office, and I treat my team the same, as do all my fellow directors). Seems like there are a lot of companies out there who care more about how many hours you do and when, rather than how good a job you do.

This thread has certainly been an eye opener with respect to some office practices

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Do companies actually do this? I find it insane. I have a job to do. Takes me was more than my contracted hours. And I just do it in whatever way works for me....whenever and however that is. Yesterday I did more than 12 hours work. Today I’ve done barely 5, and heading out now for a run. (And that’s not a WFH thing.....that’s how it was in the office, and I treat my team the same, as do all my fellow directors). Seems like there are a lot of companies out there who care more about how many hours you do and when, rather than how good a job you do.

This thread has certainly been an eye opener with respect to some office practices

My company certainly doesn't do this. You are judged by the work you produce, not your time keeping.

Yeah Apple are again another terrible example if some are looking to knock WFH. They spent 5 billion building their Apple campus and same as Google, they would be happiest if they could get staff to live in the office

irelandrover

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Do companies actually do this? I find it insane. I have a job to do. Takes me was more than my contracted hours. And I just do it in whatever way works for me....whenever and however that is. Yesterday I did more than 12 hours work. Today I’ve done barely 5, and heading out now for a run. (And that’s not a WFH thing.....that’s how it was in the office, and I treat my team the same, as do all my fellow directors). Seems like there are a lot of companies out there who care more about how many hours you do and when, rather than how good a job you do.

This thread has certainly been an eye opener with respect to some office practices

Yes we have to clock In and out. However we are judged on the output we have and if we are in negative hours then nothing would be said as long as I'm doing my work.

It's also used to know who is in the building in case there's a fire

The one exception is sick leave and doctor visits. If you have too many in the year then the company assume you are overworked. And they take steps to reduce your workload or train you up more. Therefore sick leave and doctor visits are carefully monitored.

Mic 1972

Deleted User wrote: »

Do companies actually do this? I find it insane. I have a job to do. Takes me was more than my contracted hours. And I just do it in whatever way works for me....whenever and however that is. Yesterday I did more than 12 hours work. Today I’ve done barely 5, and heading out now for a run. (And that’s not a WFH thing.....that’s how it was in the office, and I treat my team the same, as do all my fellow directors). Seems like there are a lot of companies out there who care more about how many hours you do and when, rather than how good a job you do.

This thread has certainly been an eye opener with respect to some office practices

It depends on the Job, customer service and entry level jobs in general have shifts and clock-in clock-out policies.
They use systems to monitor attendance from remote

limnam

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah Apple are again another terrible example if some are looking to knock WFH. They spent 5 billion building their Apple campus and same as Google, they would be happiest if they could get staff to live in the office

The vast majority of jobs in Apple in Cork they won't allow you work in the office. That was before Covid. Why is Apple a bad example?

They're probably best setup for WFH than most.

CramCycle

Sorry for not reading the whole thread but here is my pre covid view of it:
I lived with a guy working for a computer game company. They used to rent in the city centre, he rented with us in a medium/high rent price area. Then one day his manager clicked on the idea that they all work at desks that financially they could provide multiple times over if people worked from home. He offered the whole team whatever set up they wanted for home, a load left immediately, a few stayed. Everyone who stayed done well. He worked from home for a few years and it went fantastically. Loved it, He got flagged as a key employee by their San Fran team, his manager got a huge thumbs up for the idea, and the guy is earning more that I thought anyone could earn in video game design and implementation. Upped sticks, moved to the US, rents a cheap house way outside SF but can go in if ever needed. Pops into meet the office team on occasion for pizza and beer night and the company pay his hotel costs if its a long day because WFH just saves that much money if it is a possibility.

I for one think that if you can mentally handle it, WFH is the way to go. If my jo didn't need physical work, I would do it in a heart beat and now make a conscious effort to timetable better and WFH once a week clearing paperwork.

Bass Reeves

CramCycle wrote: »

Sorry for not reading the whole thread but here is my pre covid view of it:
I lived with a guy working for a computer game company. They used to rent in the city centre, he rented with us in a medium/high rent price area. Then one day his manager clicked on the idea that they all work at desks that financially they could provide multiple times over if people worked from home. He offered the whole team whatever set up they wanted for home, a load left immediately, a few stayed. Everyone who stayed done well. He worked from home for a few years and it went fantastically. Loved it, He got flagged as a key employee by their San Fran team, his manager got a huge thumbs up for the idea, and the guy is earning more that I thought anyone could earn in video game design and implementation. Upped sticks, moved to the US, rents a cheap house way outside SF but can go in if ever needed. Pops into meet the office team on occasion for pizza and beer night and the company pay his hotel costs if its a long day because WFH just saves that much money if it is a possibility.

I for one think that if you can mentally handle it, WFH is the way to go. If my jo didn't need physical work, I would do it in a heart beat and now make a conscious effort to timetable better and WFH once a week clearing paperwork.

It amazing when you give certain employee's freedom they will work harder to maintain these freedom's. For s large percentage of staff WFH whether hybrid or virtually full-time can have huge time and cost savings. These employees will often work harder and more efficiently than if in an office.

For someone commuting 40 miles a day the cost saving on traveling by there own car can be 80-100 euro or more a week in costs and maybe 13+ hours in timesaving. Add in that this worker may be able to drop there kids to school and collect them in the evening.

Employers were shocked that productivity increased, why wouldn't it when staff are way less tired when at work and are not rushing out the door to get home

Bass Reeves

Bass Reeves wrote: »

It amazing when you give certain employee's freedom they will work harder to maintain these freedom's. For s large percentage of staff WFH whether hybrid or virtually full-time can have huge time and cost savings. These employees will often work harder and more efficiently than if in an office.

For someone commuting 40 miles a day the cost saving on traveling by there own car can be 80-100 euro or more a week in costs and maybe 13+ hours in timesaving. Add in that this worker may be able to drop there kids to school and collect them in the evening.

Employers were shocked that productivity increased, why wouldn't it when staff are way less tired when at work and are not rushing out the door to get home

Good points. The thing is you need a good set up working from home, not the kitchen table ideally but a separate office. Someone I know has a fabulous set up working from home, really nice office but misses the interaction with people, business lunches, work meetings etc so it’s kind of isolating.

Another person I know has a hybrid set up three days in office, two days at home. Person is single renting in a house share so wouldn’t have a nice home office but could choose the sitting room, kitchen or own bedroom to work from as others are out at work. It depends on personal circumstances but no doubt long commutes and lower costs can make it attractive. The hybrid model sounds nicest imo a bit of both worlds.

The hybrid model gives people a bit of everything, so whether you like WFH or WFO you get a bit of what you want.

Hybrid is the fairest compromise.

ineedeuro

Deleted User wrote: »

The hybrid model gives people a bit of everything, so whether you like WFH or WFO you get a bit of what you want.

Hybrid is the fairest compromise.

Which is what most companies will move towards

Flinty997

[Deleted User] wrote: »

My company certainly doesn't do this. You are judged by the work you produce, not your time keeping.

I've worked in many places where it's clock watching and seeing people looking busy and at their desk rather than looking at actual productivity. Its very common.

It's those places and people who will never accept WFH.

haskellgeek

I personally see hybrid as the worst if both worlds as already posted here. Basically have to go into an office in a city centre for me so I'd have to live commuting distance at the least and then also have a desk at home and semi office. If that was presented to me I'd be in the office every day. I don't see the office as a social place that was dying long before covid for us but I also wouldn't mind if others were hybrid/wfh.

I have asked myself to go fully remote as it suits me for now and looking longer term I could make that work but not a hybrid it would be wfh/office only. The lugging of equipment myself would annoy me enough.

Mrs OBumble

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

So look for a job located close to where you want to live.

Yeah, cos there's loads of jobs out in the suburbs and commuter towns dotted around Dublin. Do you not think that people ALREADY have exhausted such avenues when looking for employment? I mean, when I was applying for jobs I wasn't scouring places the other side of the country, I went where all the jobs are, centrally located in the CBDs of our cities.

Your comment above is about as helpful as someone telling Greebo to build an extension onto his gaff and use that as an office.

Flinty997

haskellgeek wrote: »

I personally see hybrid as the worst if both worlds as already posted here. Basically have to go into an office in a city centre for me so I'd have to live commuting distance at the least and then also have a desk at home and semi office. If that was presented to me I'd be in the office every day. I don't see the office as a social place that was dying long before covid for us but I also wouldn't mind if others were hybrid/wfh.

I have asked myself to go fully remote as it suits me for now and looking longer term I could make that work but not a hybrid it would be wfh/office only. The lugging of equipment myself would annoy me enough.

We've had a few people hybrid for many years. But its not really a set day. They tend to come up for specific meetings rather than a set day. I don't know any who aren't long distances from the office.

That's said I know people who do two hour each way commutes. So what's commuting distance depends really on the person.

Flinty997

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yeah, cos there's loads of jobs out in the suburbs and commuter towns dotted around Dublin. Do you not think that people ALREADY have exhausted such avenues when looking for employment? I mean, when I was applying for jobs I wasn't scouring places the other side of the country, I went where all the jobs are, centrally located in the CBDs of our cities.

Your comment above is about as helpful as someone telling Greebo to build an extension onto his gaff and use that as an office.

30% of Irish population live rurally. They can't all be unemployed.

ineedeuro

Flinty997 wrote: »

30% of Irish population live rurally. They can't all be unemployed.

The poster didn’t say that did they? I don’t see the point is twisting someone’s post?

I spent years in school/college and then worked in a company to get to a decent position. That job is not available anywhere outside a city.
I also have a family etc so I prefer to live outside a city for all the reasons you can imagine but mostly for my children.
The discussion is that if I can do my job from home then moving forward I should be able to WFH. Potentially 1-2 days in office

This has a better work/life balance. Reduces stress . Also from an environmental point of view reduces cars on the road plus it frees up public transport.
People moving from the cities to outside and working from home also frees up houses in the city for younger people who have different priorities

So saying “just find a job closer to home” is a very very silly statement. That is not an option for lots of people