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Forced to work from home

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    #872
    C3PO
    Registered Users Posts: 3,752 ✭✭✭C3PO


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I can feed two of us all three meals plus snacks for a week for €100, and still have enough left over for a nice takeaway at the weekend.

    Ah here ... a “nice takeaway” for two is a minimum of €25 - so you’re feeding two of you for €75 - 3 meals a day for 7 days + all snacks etc! Really?


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    #873
    snotboogie
    Registered Users Posts: 3,570 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    Are people that commute to work not delighted to have 2+ hours extra every day of time back by working from home? (plus associated cost savings) .

    Can a raise to cover higher bills directly resulting from work not be negotiated, especially seeing as the company will be making large savings?

    The average daily commute time for Dublin workers pre covid was one hour. Outside of Dublin was 45 minutes. If you had a 2+ hour commute you were doing it wrong


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    #874
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,574 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    snotboogie wrote: »
    The average daily commute time for Dublin workers pre covid was one hour. Outside of Dublin was 45 minutes. If you had a 2+ hour commute you were doing it wrong

    It's actually not that unbelievable, often the drive from D4 to Bray was often 2 hours during school and college time. Drops to 45minutea when college closes and 25minutes when schools close but for a good chunk of the year, if you were driving, that's what you faced. PT is way less and cycling less again. Using averages here is misleading since there is such variation at different times of the year.


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    #875
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    C3PO wrote: »
    Ah here ... a “nice takeaway” for two is a minimum of €25 - so you’re feeding two of you for €75 - 3 meals a day for 7 days + all snacks etc! Really?

    Yep. Why so surprised? If you're spending more than that for two people try using a meal planner. Prevents waste and saves you a fortune.

    Takeaway doesn't cost €25 for two either. But maybe yours does, I don't know what you order....


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    #876
    Padre_Pio
    Registered Users Posts: 5,012 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Yep. Why so surprised? If you're spending more than that for two people try using a meal planner. Prevents waste and saves you a fortune.

    Takeaway doesn't cost €25 for two either. But maybe yours does, I don't know what you order....
    Something not off the eurosaver.


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    #877
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Padre_Pio wrote: »
    Something not off the eurosaver.

    The only thing from McDs that touches my lips is a flat white. :)


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    #878
    irelandrover
    Registered Users Posts: 3,712 ✭✭✭irelandrover


    I don't think the thread should descend into a conversation about food costs.

    I would. Like to ask the people who want WFH full time. What are the benefits that aren't related to a long commute?


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    #879
    Cuddlesworth
    Registered Users Posts: 13,983 ✭✭✭✭Cuddlesworth


    irelandrover wrote: »
    I don't think the thread should descend into a conversation about food costs.

    I would. Like to ask the people who want WFH full time. What are the benefits that aren't related to a long commute?

    Time, time and time. Almost every benefit comes back to time gained. Could be your commute. Could be flexible working times mean you can pop out for appointments/shopping without taking holidays. Could be the missus needs help with something. Could be that you have finished your work for the day and can head off early and get some jobs round the house done.

    I've found that once people get to work from home, they start to put a greater value on their time and what they are actually doing with it.

    I've been working at home for nearly 7 years now and to be honest, if I was to head back into a office I'd be looking for a 40% pay bump for the increased hours.


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    #880
    haskellgeek
    Registered Users Posts: 98 ✭✭haskellgeek


    irelandrover wrote: »
    I don't think the thread should descend into a conversation about food costs.

    I would. Like to ask the people who want WFH full time. What are the benefits that aren't related to a long commute?

    For me the one of the upsides as well as down side is not having to orginise meeting rooms, the down side is now meetings go on forever as you don't "have" to leave so people forget this and go on and on.....

    Less distractions I do have less noise at home most days also I control the temperature, my hours are more pickable. Nicer views more space more of the equipment I'd like.

    There are downsides obviously too I used to play a bit of five a side football at work I now sometimes forget to leave work behind, it's easier to teach some people face to face.


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    #881
    irelandrover
    Registered Users Posts: 3,712 ✭✭✭irelandrover


    Cuddlesworth wrote: »
    Time, time and time. Almost every benefit comes back to time gained. Could be your commute. Could be flexible working times mean you can pop out for appointments/shopping without taking holidays. Could be the missus needs help with something. Could be that you have finished your work for the day and can head off early and get some jobs round the house done.

    I've found that once people get to work from home, they start to put a greater value on their time and what they are actually doing with it.

    I've been working at home for nearly 7 years now and to be honest, if I was to head back into a office I'd be looking for a 40% pay bump for the increased hours.

    This is fair.

    I actually thought of a few since earlier when I posted my benefits of working in the office.
    I get some household chores done during the day. Throwing on 2 lots of laundry during the day instead of one in the morning. Can put the dinner in the slow cooker during lunch.

    The reason I asked is because most of the benefits people name really seem to be because they live too far from the office.

    Even what you state here, flexible working times should also be possible in the office I'd say. Same as finishing early if your work is done.

    Quite a good few people have mentioned they save on childcare but that's actually against any WFH policy I've seen.


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    #882
    Cuddlesworth
    Registered Users Posts: 13,983 ✭✭✭✭Cuddlesworth


    irelandrover wrote: »
    The reason I asked is because most of the benefits people name really seem to be because they live too far from the office.

    Lets assume a reasonable static commute of 30 minutes door to desk. That's a hour a day, 5 days a week. WFH is a 35 hour work week, office is a 40 hour work week(in my mind). Thats not just a extra 5 hours a week, its pretty much a full day per month or about 10 full days a year extra unpaid time. It adds up.
    irelandrover wrote: »
    Even what you state here, flexible working times should also be possible in the office I'd say. Same as finishing early if your work is done.

    Grand in theory, in practice bad middle management nearly always get pissy about early leavers. Its part of the reason so many of them are clamoring to get back to the office, so they can micro manage again.
    irelandrover wrote: »
    Quite a good few people have mentioned they save on childcare but that's actually against any WFH policy I've seen.

    Again that depends. Small children obviously require near full time care. But older children can be managed with little input, but rather a adult presence near by. In that case, they can both work and save on childcare.


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    #883
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,084 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    irelandrover wrote: »
    I don't think the thread should descend into a conversation about food costs.

    I would. Like to ask the people who want WFH full time. What are the benefits that aren't related to a long commute?

    I worked from home for the last 20 years of my working life and my wife even longer... I say a big part is participation in family life. I was always there to eat lunch with the kids, greet them when they came in from school etc... It was also much easier to get to their events and so on.

    The fact that you don’t have to get up early and travel means you are not always tired during the week so you are in better form for family events etc..

    You also have a lot more time and energy for hobbies, participation in the local clubs and societies etc... and I prefer an hour sitting in my garden watching the world go by to commuting.

    I know that when I turn off the work mobile at 17:00 I’m in far better form both mentally and physically to enjoy the evening than if have been commuting.


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    #884
    oisinog
    Registered Users Posts: 245 ✭✭oisinog


    irelandrover wrote: »
    I don't think the thread should descend into a conversation about food costs.

    I would. Like to ask the people who want WFH full time. What are the benefits that aren't related to a long commute?

    For me it has been the cost savings we no longer have child care after school so that has saved us more money.

    It's also the time, I can now take my kids to the swimming pool or their gymnastics classes after work something I was never able to do.

    I do miss my commute to work as I cycled beside a green way and it was a nice relaxing start and finish to the day, but I have offset that by cycling or going to the gym at lunch.

    Downsides are spending more time with my wife 😂 as she is also working from home

    All joking aside is the unstable networks due to higher usage during the day


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    #885
    irelandrover
    Registered Users Posts: 3,712 ✭✭✭irelandrover


    Cuddlesworth wrote: »
    Grand in theory, in practice bad middle management nearly always get pissy about early leavers. Its part of the reason so many of them are clamoring to get back to the office, so they can micro manage again.



    Again that depends. Small children obviously require near full time care. But older children can be managed with little input, but rather a adult presence near by. In that case, they can both work and save on childcare.

    Any WFH policy I've seen states that children must have another minder during work times. I understand people break the rules due to how expensive childcare is.


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    #886
    Flinty997
    Registered Users Posts: 11,770 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    snotboogie wrote: »
    The average daily commute time for Dublin workers pre covid was one hour. Outside of Dublin was 45 minutes. If you had a 2+ hour commute you were doing it wrong

    I'm baffled why you think someone deciding a long commute is worth it, is "wrong". It's just different priorities.


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    #887
    Flinty997
    Registered Users Posts: 11,770 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    irelandrover wrote: »
    Any WFH policy I've seen states that children must have another minder during work times. I understand people break the rules due to how expensive childcare is.

    ..and a global pandemic....


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    #888
    irelandrover
    Registered Users Posts: 3,712 ✭✭✭irelandrover


    oisinog wrote: »
    For me it has been the cost savings we no longer have child care after school so that has saved us more money.

    It's also the time, I can now take my kids to the swimming pool or their gymnastics classes after work something I was never able to do.

    I do miss my commute to work as I cycled beside a green way and it was a nice relaxing start and finish to the day, but I have offset that by cycling or going to the gym at lunch.

    Downsides are spending more time with my wife 😂 as she is also working from home

    All joking aside is the unstable networks due to higher usage during the day

    I know I've seemed it so far but I'm not against WFH. I see it's got big benefits for people but it seems almost entirely related to people that have way too long commutes.

    For me none of that applies as I live close to work.

    I do think the government should push WFH as it seems like an obvious solution to pollution problems. It would cause a big reduction in traffic. This is entirely personal but I suffer really bad hay-fever. The last year its been great and I'm convinced it's because the air is a lot more pure due to a lack of pollution and that really helps me.


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    #889
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    irelandrover wrote: »
    I don't think the thread should descend into a conversation about food costs.

    I would. Like to ask the people who want WFH full time. What are the benefits that aren't related to a long commute?

    For me personally

    - No commute
    - Sold the car (was costing 600+ a month between loan, fuel etc)
    - Cheaper to eat now (even with a subsidised canteen)
    - More time for study which has allowed me to upskill and since covid, move up.
    - More time for exercise, gone from dying after a 10km cycle to knocking out 50km spins no bother and looking forward to doing my first of many 100km's soon
    - More time with my wife. We now have all 3 meals together as her place of work just happens to be across the road from where we live
    - Not having to listen to loads of people yapping on phones, mobiles, chatting
    - Not having to feign interest or listen to boring ass conversations in the canteen
    - Just sitting down, doing my work and when done, getting up, and being done.
    - Less stress
    - House is so much cleaner as I often do a choir or two during my late break (15 mins). Instead of sitting at the kitchen table having a cup of tea, I'll stick on the kettle, then load the washing machine while I'm waiting, or put out the bins, or give the place a sweep, or give a toilet a clean etc, then grab my tea and sit back down to work

    and so on

    I've said it may times on WFH threads, I have 20 years left in my working career and I don't plan on ever stepping foot inside an office again. If I need to change jobs, no problem.


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    #890
    irelandrover
    Registered Users Posts: 3,712 ✭✭✭irelandrover


    Flinty997 wrote: »
    ..and a global pandemic....

    Sorry. I assumed this thread was about when the pandemic was over and normal working rules apply.


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    #891
    Flinty997
    Registered Users Posts: 11,770 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Curious, are you saying this as a justification for you working in an office or as a reason to not allow WFH for everyone else?

    Neither. Its only an issue during the lockdown. Normally people go out and meet people for lunch or dinner even when working from home.


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    #892
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    irelandrover wrote: »
    I know I've seemed it so far but I'm not against WFH. I see it's got big benefits for people but it seems almost entirely related to people that have way too long commutes.

    For me none of that applies as I live close to work.

    I do think the government should push WFH as it seems like an obvious solution to pollution problems. It would cause a big reduction in traffic. This is entirely personal but I suffer really bad hay-fever. The last year its been great and I'm convinced it's because the air is a lot more pure due to a lack of pollution and that really helps me.

    My commute is 18km from door to desk which may not be the longest in theory but in my real life experience of commuting in Dublin, I have to allow 90 minutes minimum in the morning to make it to my desk on time, and even at that, sometimes I don't make it on time. Weather also has a big impact on traffic in Dublin. If it rains, give yourself extra time!

    Public transport options would not save me any time, as posted already, I would need to change at least once, and even at that I would have a good 20 minute walk on each end. Cyling is not an option.

    I was working from home 1 day a week pre-covid, and had already agreed to increase that to 2 days a week when covid hit. Purely for commuting reasons. I find it exhausting and it was affecting my health. I am definitely more productive from home. I have never asked for, nor do I expect full time remote working, I'm willing to return to a hybrid model. But not just to be seen or socialise at the water cooler chats. That, in my view, is a waste of time and energy.


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    #893
    irelandrover
    Registered Users Posts: 3,712 ✭✭✭irelandrover


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    My commute is 18km from door to desk which may not be the longest in theory but in my real life experience of commuting in Dublin, I have to allow 90 minutes minimum in the morning to make it to my desk on time, and even at that, sometimes I don't make it on time. Weather also has a big impact on traffic in Dublin. If it rains, give yourself extra time!

    Public transport options would not save me any time, as posted already, I would need to change at least once, and even at that I would have a good 20 minute walk on each end. Cyling is not an option.

    I was working from home 1 day a week pre-covid, and had already agreed to increase that to 2 days a week when covid hit. Purely for commuting reasons. I find it exhausting and it was affecting my health. I am definitely more productive from home. I have never asked for, nor do I expect full time remote working, I'm willing to return to a hybrid model. But not just to be seen or socialise at the water cooler chats. That, in my view, is a waste of time and energy.

    I understand but that's all commute related. Those benefits are clear. I was wondering about other benefits.

    You also state cycling isn't an option. If traffic reduced and cycling facilities improved would it then be an option?


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    #894
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,084 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    After seeing this, I figured I better quality my previous comment...
    Cuddlesworth wrote: »
    Lets assume a reasonable static commute of 30 minutes door to desk. That's a hour a day, 5 days a week. WFH is a 35 hour work week, office is a 40 hour work week(in my mind). Thats not just a extra 5 hours a week, its pretty much a full day per month or about 10 full days a year extra unpaid time. It adds up.

    Here, Switzerland, the average working week is 42.5 hours excluding lunch time and coffee breaks. If you live in the city the commute would be say 20 mins to half an hour. If you live in one of the surrounding towns more like an hour. On top of this you must legally take a half hour for lunch. So around 55 hours a week.

    Consequently a WFH possibility is usually an attractive recruiting option.


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    #895
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    irelandrover wrote: »
    I understand but that's all commute related. Those benefits are clear. I was wondering about other benefits.

    You also state cycling isn't an option. If traffic reduced and cycling facilities improved would it then be an option?

    Not for me - suffice to say I have wheelchair blue badge.

    The other benefits I find goes back to food. I was eating a lot more takeaways and "quick" heat up dinners, and now, I have time to meal plan, and cook decent meals from scratch.

    And time to go for a walk when I want - which often got skipped when I was leaving the house before 7am and not getting home until 7pm. I'm looking forward to taking up swimming again regularly, as soon as I can.

    Its just a much healthier, better way to live, in my view.


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    #896
    StupidLikeAFox
    Registered Users Posts: 7,699 ✭✭✭StupidLikeAFox


    Hybrid working is the way to go for me. Looking forward to getting back for three days with two days at home. Think ill aim for Monday, Wednesday and Thurs in the office, Tuesday and Friday at home


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    #897
    oisinog
    Registered Users Posts: 245 ✭✭oisinog


    irelandrover wrote: »
    I know I've seemed it so far but I'm not against WFH. I see it's got big benefits for people but it seems almost entirely related to people that have way too long commutes.

    For me none of that applies as I live close to work.

    I do think the government should push WFH as it seems like an obvious solution to pollution problems. It would cause a big reduction in traffic. This is entirely personal but I suffer really bad hay-fever. The last year its been great and I'm convinced it's because the air is a lot more pure due to a lack of pollution and that really helps me.

    The reduction in pollution he been a welcome side effect of covid and hopefully people continue to realise that you no longer need to drive everywhere.

    One thing I hope to see from covid is the community spirit that we have lost over the years I was guilty of not knowing most of my neighbours and covid has helped with getting to know people in the local area and long may that continue


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    #898
    mrslancaster
    Registered Users Posts: 1,795 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    WFH suits a lot of people and there are benefits to not spending time commuting. On the other hand if a part of your home is used as an office for your employer there are costs associated with that and it's the company who save huge amounts.
    For example say a hot desk needs about 70 sqft. In an office set up that might cost €60 sq.ft + €10 for service charges (dublin) that's without toilets/ kitchen/ reception/ meeting rooms etc. More savings there as fewer needed if employees are not in the office. Employees WFH are saving companies around €5k every year by providing space the size of a hot desk, more if it's a bedroom, attic, garden room.
    IMO savings on commuting/lunches etc are outweighed by the value of the free real estate passed to the company. Maybe if companies were to pay homeowners or renters for the use of the space that they are probably paying a mortgage or rent on, then it wouldn't seem like the financial gain from WFH is so one sided.


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    #899
    Backstreet Moyes
    Registered Users Posts: 8,739 ✭✭✭Backstreet Moyes


    Positives to working from home for me

    An extra hour in bed each morning
    No need to rush to work after dropping off the kid
    More time with my kid
    Use lunch breaks to do housework
    Drop over for a haircut at half 10 on a Wedneday when it's quiet rather than when it's packed on a Saturday
    Avoiding small talk which eats into your hours
    Avoiding people who you have to keep helping which eats into your hours
    I am finished and at home an hour earlier so I can go out and exercise or socialise for an extra hour
    Use downtime to exercise or do something around the house instead of pretending to look busy
    Project teams using group chats where everybody sees updates instead of walking around talking in the office where messages may get mixed up

    Negatives to working from home

    I have a few people who I would consider friends

    Solution we are going to meet up for lunch and drinks regularly once everything opens up


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    #900
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,084 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    I left Ireland long before WFH was a thing and I don’t know anyone that worked that way in Ireland before that pandemic, so I’m wondering what was the typical setup before that for people who did WFH?

    Here in Switzerland before the pandemic WFH for employees came with:
    - Company supplied equipment: laptop, printer etc
    - Internet connection separate from home network
    - home office allowance 2,000 - 4,000 Euros per year
    Typically these people lived in the countryside where space was not an issue and a barn could be converted into office space.

    Of course WFH during the pandemic has been the typical living room table job etc....

    So I wonder how valid are assumptions that WFH conditions will remain the same as now going forward....


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    #901
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,796 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Jim2007 wrote: »

    Here in Switzerland before the pandemic WFH for employees came with:
    - Company supplied equipment: laptop, printer etc
    - Internet connection separate from home network
    - home office allowance 2,000 - 4,000 Euros per year
    Typically these people lived in the countryside where space was not an issue and a barn could be converted into office space.

    Of course WFH during the pandemic has been the typical living room table job etc....

    So I wonder how valid are assumptions that WFH conditions will remain the same as now going forward....

    Typical WFH jobs in Ireland pre pandemic were customer service for Apple Amazon, Sjopify.

    The employee supplied the workspace and high quality broadband. Employer supplied the salary (typically between 22-30k) and computer equipment.

    Some MNC allowed part time WFH. The employer supplied an ergonomic assessment.


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