Options for a council owned shooting range.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120520714#Comment_120520714

I think that end game is being a bit paranoid. If they was actually the masterplan, they wouldn't need to be secretive about it. They could simply make all firearms illegal tomorrow. We don't have any constitutional protection here, they would be little grounds for a SC challenge.

The government also isn't some dystopian hive mind, or singular totalitarian entity. There are people in all walks of life that think firearms should be banned, mainly out of ignorance (as you've seen in threads on other forums on boards). No doubt individuals in various governments also have similar ignorant views. But that's not the same as being party or government policy. Making policies on a government level is really difficult. It would need to appear on a lot of agendas, and documents in order to get any sort of widespread traction. I just can't see a grand de-arming conspiracy being a high priority.

I used the London and Sydney venues as examples as both countries would have similarly conservative firearms laws as Ireland. We're obviously not in a position to make an olympic bid, so could never go with something of that scale. But the principle of being back for the Dept of Sport is the same. Although to receive the necessary funding, the olympic disciplines and the sport as a whole probably needs to be much more popular.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120528343#Comment_120528343

Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean that I'm wrong. It's death by 1000 cuts. If they get rid of guns in one foul swoop, the Government know they'd be voted out of office by the farmers. So they are doing it slowly, one gun type at a time, one new restrictive rule at a time......and so on.

tonysopprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120528343#Comment_120528343

Just since 2009,

Ban CF handguns, but thankfully a grandfather clause

Limit RF handguns to 5 rounds, damage, so no resale value

Announce in 2015 intention to ban SACF, wait 8 years to enact so no compensation

2019: Mag capacity reduction, 6 months to get rid of, but to where?. No compensation

Lead Ban, all common ammunition now to be made illegal

FEC consultation????. STRINGENT new security criteria costing thousands, NV and Thermal and sound suppressing now impossible to get/use, no compensation

Definitely an AGENDA, death by 1000 cuts, with no compensation to be paid

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120514907#Comment_120514907

Councils are local entities. They operate local facilities. Like pools, football pitches, tennis courts. That service the local area, and are generally pretty basic - even below basic standard. That would cut it with firearms imo.

there's one huge difference between operating a pool, say, and a firing range. the pool is open to anyone who can pay the small fee for use. only a tiny fraction of the population would be able to use a firing range.

why would the council dedicate several acres of land to an 'exclusive' activity (exclusive in the sense that the vast majority of the population would be excluded from using it)?

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120528431#Comment_120528431

The farmers rely on aid from the government. They aren’t nearly as big a lobby group as people make out.

And even then, it would be trivial to placate the farmers and screw everyone else.

Its also not like there are pro and anti firearms parties they would give firearms back. You are claiming the “government” when it’s likely each party contributed when in power.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120528551#Comment_120528551

We’re each of those decisions made by the sae party? You take of the government as a single group. I’ve never checked, but I’d assume each action was actually made by a different controlling party.

And there was obvious a motive to restrict firearms. Under the guise of public safety. I haven’t disputed that. I’m saying I doubt there is a current co-ordinated plan between multiple parties to take away all firearms. If they actually wanted to do that, they could just do it.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120528620#Comment_120528620

Not sure if you meant to quote somebody else. But I didn’t suggest the council could or should run a range.

magicbastarder

I was expanding on your point.

clivej

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120528431#Comment_120528431

"If they get rid of guns in one foul swoop, the Government know they'd be voted out of office by the farmers."

And who pray will be voted in??? Only the same Government under a different name. There are only 4 parties here in Ireland and they all want firearms gone.

Feisar

I don't think there's a hive mind at work however the net effect is the same. Things will only tighten and no one will put their neck out to relax any regulations due to being vilified the next time a gang shooting happens or some poor sod commits suicide.

Zxthinger

Because they have all the land..

They can’t discriminate against different sports..

.

Grizzly 45

As for Hive mind.

More like the UN and EU teacher's pet. Ireland's govts have over the year slavishly followed and signed us up for any and every right and civilian liberty restricting legislation proposed by those two utterly foul and corrupt organisations.The UN has had a plethora of civilian disarmament programmes and treaties restricting "Internation arms trafficking".While supposedly to stop 3rd world countries' local warlords from arming up 10-year-old kids to fight in their military. It affects us the civilian gun owner more than any multi-millionaire warlord who buys whatever they need in blood diamonds or drugs contrary to the UN's directives.

Think ITAR legislation and why your surplus ammo boxes and shotgun cartridge sleeves have a UN designation code printed on them.It's not there for fun.

How much debate was given in the Dail to the EU arms directive[aka the mag ban]? About all of 60 seconds probably. The Dail rushes thru legislation whether it is EU or national under two utterly despotic measures that should have NO place in a democratic parliamentary party. A guillotine and a party whip system.

Also, guess what it SUITS the Irish body politic too. Ever since 1974, Ireland has left critical international decisions to the "grownups in Brussels" It absolves the Dail and its denizens to be taken to account on having to make adult political decisions about the fate of the nation, when you can easily say "Shure Brussels decided it, its THE LAW we must obey it lads, and here's some of our own "gold plating" to show we are really good little serfs!"

So no, they don't have to ban anything,all they have to do is follow what Mammy UN and Daddy EU tell them to do on this or any other issue.

Feisar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120535462#Comment_120535462

I don't always agree with your POV and delivery at times however you're a wealth of info.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120532130#Comment_120532130

Agree with that. It’s a general tightening and restriction to only what is seen as necessary. That very different is a covert masterplan to ban all guns. It that were the case it would just happen.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120537762#Comment_120537762

As the years go by, less and less will be deemed necessary. General tightening and restriction, if it keeps continuing, will eventually leave people with fcukall guns or drive people away from gun ownership due to all the restrictions. Every few years we lose something, be it a firearm type or magazine size etc. Next up is semi-auto centrefire rifles and then it will be night vision/thermal stuff that will be curtailed. What'll be after that......smallbore pistols, restricted shotguns, restricted rifles, moderators????

I stick by my death by 1000 cuts comment.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120538752#Comment_120538752

I fully agree that there will be more restrictions over time. But I'm saying that's not the same as there being a current masterplan to take all firearms away. Certainly would mean that is an agenda to block support for shooting sports.

The biggest obstruction to restrictions is participation. But I don't know if that will improve. Ironically also goes back to the topic of the thread, building a facility. Very often the best pathway to support for sports is through the scholastic and collegiate routes. Doesn't Trinty college have a range? That was set to get a huge upgrade too iirc.

freddieot

I've seen indoor rangefacilities in Germany and The Netherlands that basically occupy the same campus as Judo halls and basketball arenas. However, that probably speaks to the culture and history in those countries. The issue here is that any heritage we had of target firearms as a common part of life, with the exception of clay shooting was seriously damaged with the great grab during the 70s. It's taken a huge amount of work to bring things even to where we are now. I can't ever see council's or other public entities having either the political guts or indeed enough public support to even contemplate providing any local resources for a project like that. Unfortunately.

You're right about the universities and they helped keep airgun sports alive in particular. Again, the impact is very limited as even their facilities are for students only as I understand.

Grizzly 45

Surely building somthing like this to acceptable DOJ range standards and finding a disused lot,farm yard or similar with a sympathetic owner in every county of Ireland is not beyond our skills? Instant and portable ranges in a 40 foot container?

https://www.arcada-company.com/?id=mobile

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjeJZ-uWPkY&ab_channel=ARCADA

tonysopprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120543840#Comment_120543840

If the government cannot build/supply a range for the army or gardai without having to resort to using private enterprise, then all hope is lost

Grizzly 45

If the government cannot build/supply a range for the army or gardai without having to resort to using private enterprise, then all hope is lost

They [AGS]went and bought apparently six of these container shooting ranges @appx 1million Sterling.Made in NI . So yeah...http://www.generalranges.com/

Zxthinger

In truth, I can see the complexity of trying to get Council staff to run a range, but there are a myriad of public golf courses that are all state ran.. or state funded.. so how are we not being funded too.

These golf courses are all probably all ran on a tender with prospective bodies offering their services. A potental range would also be managed in this format.

At the end of the day Its just the reabsorption of tax payers money into the community. Just like.every other sport..

A running track,

Football pitches

Bike track

Walking Routes

Miniature Rail way

Outdoor Gym Equipment

Public swimming pool

Pitch n Putt

Lakeside Fishing platforms - piers

Community Stables

The ideal starting place would be an air rifle range that could be be incorporated into any moderate park or outdoor space.

Something that syncs with a relaxation in licencing and storage of sub 12 foot pound rifles and is possible open on Saturdays and Sundays.. That might be considered as a parallel to pitch and putt vs 18 hole full sized course..thus the air rifle.range might be compared to the lowly pitch and putt.

If they deemed such an installation to be a task that is beyond their abilities then they should consider finance-funding and access to military ranges and allow hunters and others the use of these facilities even if was only on a special occasion. Open Days might serve to promote the defence force as a career option for some.??

It might just be worth hassling the LA to provide land for the purposes of forming a new range. The seek funding to build and run it..

But sitting here and not getting the word out that we are here and we want aid only serves to make the sport more elusive and appear more fringe than mainstream..

Regards Zx

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120544691#Comment_120544691

Wouldn’t all government buildings/facilities/projects be provided by private companies. As in the architects, engineers, contractors etc are all private businesses.

The was a Defence tender earlier in the year To upgrade the Army range. Curious as to the extent.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120546061#Comment_120546061

i, as joe soap public, can go to my local municipal golf course and book a round. i, as joe soap public, cannot go to a rifle range and book a round because i don't have a gun.

if the council spend money on land and facilities, it should be a facility open to everyone. a shooting range is not.

there's also the argument that the vast majority of your sample list are 'active' activities, i.e. for people to get up and move about, so there's a public health argument to be made there too. shooting is not a sport which i've ever heard any health benefits being claimed for.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120546782#Comment_120546782

It's certainly a stress relieving activity for me. That's a health benefit for me at least. But yeah, I can't see anyone convincing a council that there's health benefits to shooting.

Grizzly 45

shooting is not a sport which i've ever heard any health benefits being claimed for.

Try shooting biathalon. Cross-country skiing with target shooting with a rifle. Anyone who does this shooting discipline is a peak athlete.

Upper body and arm strength conditioning...A little challenge,grab the missus clothes iron and hold it out straight-armed for five minutes straight with no wobbles or movement. Whatsoever. An average domestic iron weighs about as much as an average target pistol Any little wobble or shake in your arm can throw your shot. The best pistol-shot lads and lasses have excellent upper-body conditioning.

Drag a 80lb stag carcass a good mile to your nearest road thru a bog or up or down a steep hill, along with a 6lb rifle as well plus ancillary gear. You'll soon learn the value of some cardio and weight training before the season starts.

magicbastarder

i don't think council firing ranges would be offering the health benefits of dragging stag carcasses around? and the fitness aspect of biathlon is surely due to the skiing, not the shooting.

Grizzly 45

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120548521#Comment_120548521

No I'm just refuting your point of the lack of health benefits concerned with shooting sports.

Grizzly 45

Main reason you wont see a council shooting range is Insurance RISK AVERSION.

If insurance companies are fleecing adventure sports sites, kiddie play areas,laser tag games etc in our ultra litigation-happy society[we are 2nd onto the USA these days].How much of an insurance premium do you think a council will have to carry for something like this?

Zxthinger

Insurance is generally covered by the entrants and not the host.. at least to some extent..

Aure just look at the state of the footpaths and cycle lanes in places.. Who’s covering the claims on that mess..

I dare say there’d be no claims from a small air rifle range compared to the litigation that befalls the street scape.

Jesus lads. I shot air rifles in Spain on holidays on a small outdoor range that the hotel ran., That event was offered on a holiday for relaxation and enjoyment..

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120546782#Comment_120546782

I don't think that golf example works.

You say Joe Soap can't go to a range a book a round if he doesn't don't own a gun. He also cannot go to a golf course and book a round unless he owns a set of clubs and other equipment.

And sure, some golf courses will let you rent clubs. So too could could a range.

BSA International

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120546782#Comment_120546782

Physically disabled people eg in wheelchairs, can shoot ....... or should the council only provide facilities for able bodied people. Shooting is a sport, same as any other.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120549002#Comment_120549002

What would be the law about me borrowing a gun from my friend and using it on a public range?

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120548560#Comment_120548560

Take away the non-shooting element of the biathlon (the skiing). What health benefits are you left with?

tehbaggins

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120549097#Comment_120549097

Breathing control, pulse control, mental state, focus, trigger discipline, muscle control, fine motor control... And that's just the shooting part. Don't overlook the mental health aspect of getting out of the house, meeting people, discovering a new interest or hobby and all the other things that will happen at a range.

Grizzly 45

Thats Spain or any other country with cop on in their legislation!Most countries dont classify air/gas powerd arms as firearms in their legislation and will sell them to anyone over 18 or with parenteal consent.I had one in Germany as a kid at age 12.Plus they come down like a ton of bricks on the parents for any misuse by their children of air guns or whatever.You dont have little scrotes knocking around the streets of Germany with 90 convictions of all types and parents getting away with excuses of broken homes and being on the dole to not being able to control them.They are gone into state care long before it gets to that level.Plus just about every village has a little air rifle shooting range in the back of the local pub on a couple nights a week.A lot of this goes back too to countries that had a tradition of militas being drawn from the citizenery.Like Spain,France and Germany.We never had that in Ireland .

Yeah ,so some little scrote robs the air pistol from the stand and goes and holds up the local shop because the teen attendent was too busy playing with his phone to pay attention to his customers or was distracted by a ruse to get one of the guns.Remember they are classified as firearms here,same as a 9mm pistol or shotgun.So imagine how much fun the press would have with that one.

We cant have nice things here in Ireland because simply said some morons will abuse whatever it is,and ruin it for the rest of us.There are still plenty of professional claim fakers out there,and this would be a gold mine to them.

Grizzly 45

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120549074#Comment_120549074

Not going to happen!You can't borrow anyones firearm here unless you are liscensed to that particular gun.So you borrowing a gun and sodding off to wherever is breaking the law on so many levels.

magicbastarder

that's what i expected - so Mellor's point about not being able to golf because you don't own clubs is not a valid comparison with a shooting range.

and i could buy a secondhand set of clubs for a couple of hundred euro probably, and not have to inform the gardai and ask permission to do so.

my point is not to be anti-shooting, but anti the idea of the council providing a shooting range.

Grizzly 45

I dont even think in the USA there is such a thing as a township funding a public range. BUT what they do give is an area that is a designated safe firing area.IOW something like an old sand quarry,or a town dump,or some kind of wasteground that is designated a safe area to shoot.Everyone knows about it and that shooting occurs there. You can pitch up and shoot whatever you have at whatever you want.Only requirement is to observe gun safety rules and haul away your targets,or not as the case may be,as many of these areas are the town dump or a junkyard.

We'd have a better chance of something like this than a council-funded and maintained range here.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120549710#Comment_120549710

I think you misunderstood my post. I was being ironic.

You claimed that you couldn’t use a range unless you own a firearm. That is incorrect.

I was pointing out that needing to own a firearm (in your example) was a parallel to needing to own clubs. And provided an example for why neither is true. You rent them for your visit.

And yup you can buy second have clubs for cheaper. Just like second hand firearms.

Basically many sports require equipment. I dint think that aspect of shooting is any grounds to exclude it from the community.

Zxthinger

I see that Dún Laogaire actually had a shooting gallery in the Pavilion on Marine Road but it burned down in 1906.. Afaik it was actually visited by Queen Victoria back in the day and as such it was a major civic attraction to the town of Kingston.. aka Dun LAOGHAIRE town..

Recently Dun LAOGHAIRE County Council spent 12years and several million restoring some public baths because of their historical significance.

It now seems that a shooting gallery may also have some historical significance after all..

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120549002#Comment_120549002

And sure, some golf courses will let you rent clubs. So too could could a range.

I'm open to correction but isn't day membership of ranges illegal here in Ireland? That would prevent Joe Public rocking up and renting a gun for a few hours shooting when they aren't a member of the range.

Grizzly 45

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120582495#Comment_120582495

Yup,day membership is gone.

Grizzly 45

Recently Dun LAOGHAIRE County Council spent 12years and several million restoring some public baths because of their historical significance.

And still managed to make an utter balls of it! God help you if you are disabled in a wheelchair getting down or up the HILL to and from the baths.

So if they couldn't take that basic human need into consideration.What sort of a mess do you think a council would make of building and running a range? The inability of organising a drinking session in St James Gate springs to mind with many local Irish govt bodies.

BattleCorp

Aside from day membership being not allowed, insurance would be a very big hinderance to opening a council range. As things stand, my range has its own insurance and all members must also have their own personal insurance. Do all other ranges in Ireland have that requirement? I'd guess so.

How do you get Joe Public to have their own insurance? Wouldn't happen.

The only way a Council shooting range would work would be for it to operate like an existing range, i.e. people become members and the range only caters for members.

Zxthinger

In all fairness the topographic levels at the DL baths were poor to begin with.. but that’s what they inherited.

Yes they had 12 years and the problems should have been solved but the elephant in the is not the excessive gradients that allow wheeled mobility units run out of control and to career into the walls of the development.

The point is It’s the fact that Kingstown, at it was called at the time was the pinnacle of modern entertainment and leisure pursuits at the time. The Pavilion was mirrored on the great crystal place of London and it was all built in the back drop of the worlds largest harbour at the time.. This is the nostalgic ambiance that the LA harkens towards..

Council money and potential spending is often based on preservation of the past or recreation of same. Regardless of the origins of the proprietor, whether they be a private member or a local authority, it still demonstrates that this particular enterprise was present in the town of Dun Laoghaire, and as, such this holds historical weight.

The building was also visited by Queen Victoria. She traversed over Marine Road on a wooden bridge to the pavilion and by doing so avoided having to mix with the riffraff below on Marine Road

A historical Shooting gallery in the 1900s was probably limited to 22flobert ammo but who knows. Regardless of this it’s sets a historical reference to shooting as a sport..

I dare say that an air rifle range could be funded locally by council money and ran by contract via a public tender..

The local authority have the land, the money and the power to pull this off..

Im only a peasant but if I would the Euro millions I put shooting on the map..

Zxthinger

And if that works then that’s great..

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120582495#Comment_120582495

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120582784#Comment_120582784

Day membership is not permitted. That is correct. But I think you are misinterpreting that.

The Firearms Act states that to be issued a FAC for target shooting you must be a member of a club. And SI 308/2009 states club can’t issue day or temp membership (as you stated). But that is to prevent FAC’s being issued on the back of Monthly membership or PAYG attendance.

But you don’t need to be a member to attend a range. The simple example being guest attendances. That also cover unlicensed guests, who are required to be supervised. It’s covered in 622/2011.

I believe Hilltop held Try Shooting Open days previous on that basis.

Zxthinger

Fair play to that gentleman for clearing up that minor issue.

I still would see a public rifle range operating much differently than a private venture.