Options for a council owned shooting range.

Zxthinger

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What's yer thoughts on the possibility of a publicly owned and operated shooting range in some county..
Worth a discussion..

These councils around Ireland have golf courses and playing pitches etc etc. Why don't we have a public shooting range..

otmmyboy2

Zxthinger wrote: »

What's yer thoughts on the possibility of a publicly owned and operated shooting range in some county..
Worth a discussion..

These councils around Ireland have golf courses and playing pitches etc etc. Why don't we have a public shooting range..

Because no councilors shoot
And because it would be viewed as too much of a headache with insurance, construction to range standards, inspection, licencing.

Not to mention if something bad did ever happen there the council would be dragged through the papers for it, regardless of their culpability or lack thereof.

My guess anyway :rolleyes:

tudderone

You'd have the purple and pink haired Karens, and the wealthy student communist types up in arms, shrieking to the media who would lap up the bilge they go on with.

clivej

Never happen here

garrettod

Nice idea....

If the DCC are prepared to blow around €25m on white water rafting in Dublin's Docklands, then there's definitely a case for putting a few mill into a decent range

Feisar

It falls back to the issue that we don't have a tradition of shooting in this country. I have raised this before, back when we were target shooting on Dollymount Stand it would have been well heeled Angle-Irish as opposed to Paddy from down the road. As i said last time I'm not trying to bring in a political Irish/English thing into it. My point is that target shooting was never a grass roots pastime here for whatever reason.
Funny how social/economical reasons impact things. Game shooting was often for the rich in the UK, so you get Purdey and Holland&Holland, in the US hynting was an everyman pastime so one gets a more economical workmans gun.
I wonder if back in the longbow times we were required to train x amount of hours each week would we have developed a target shooting scene like the UK?

I'm starting to waffle here a bit however I hope people get my point.

Richard308

Unless some philanthropist donated the land(flat) and stated he wanted a range and wildlife reserve etc adjoining it etc. Would any council etc consider it.

Stanford

Shooting is a minority sport, why should the taxpayer subsidise it with public funds?

Stovepipe

why not? look at how much they give to greyhound racing.

sprucemoose

tudderone wrote: »

You'd have the purple and pink haired Karens, and the wealthy student communist types up in arms, shrieking to the media who would lap up the bilge they go on with.

not helpful, relevant or even funny tbh

jb88

The case for a public and regulated range is well founded. But the majority would cry over the idea.

Having been involved with a club which was shut down over planning regulations and seen another partly shut down for another reason its unlikely. Not counting a few others around the country

The govt thinking that an armed and confident population would just go along with their every wish isnt very well founded, except in the US and maybe Finland.

Its a control factor like everything in this world. Its only when all control is lost that they realise the error of their ways.

All local councils have neither the expertise or the understanding. In the US there are 2.5 times the shooting ranges to Golf courses.

How many golf courses are in Ireland?

cruizer101

A few reason I can think of

Its a minority sport, smaller sports don't get much funding and rarely get public facilities built for them, unless they can slot into general sports hall e.g. badminton or hockey on an general purpose all weather.

Many would not consider it a real sport (not my opinion btw) and group it with darts, snooker, chess. I'm not aware of any public facilities for those either

There are age restrictions, I'm not sure what they are, but a lot for funding for sports goes in with the idea of getting kids into sports.
Golf is probably a bit of an exception to that where most are

As a sport it is hidden away, I've never seen a gun club looking for members, so most aren't very aware of it as a sport so wouldn't see it needing funding.

Maybe it should receive more funding but it is up to a sporting body to promote itself and look for that funding,

Stanford

""The case for a public and regulated range is well founded""......evidence for this statement please?

Feisar

cruizer101 wrote: »

A few reason I can think of

Its a minority sport, smaller sports don't get much funding and rarely get public facilities built for them, unless they can slot into general sports hall e.g. badminton or hockey on an general purpose all weather.

Many would not consider it a real sport (not my opinion btw) and group it with darts, snooker, chess. I'm not aware of any public facilities for those either

There are age restrictions, I'm not sure what they are, but a lot for funding for sports goes in with the idea of getting kids into sports.
Golf is probably a bit of an exception to that where most are

As a sport it is hidden away, I've never seen a gun club looking for members, so most aren't very aware of it as a sport so wouldn't see it needing funding.

Maybe it should receive more funding but it is up to a sporting body to promote itself and look for that funding,

In Shooting has a variety of disciplines so how anyone can say it's not a sport I don't know. I appreciate you aren't saying that but I also get the point on darts/snooker/chess.
On it being a minority sport, fair enough but I would like to see a comparison of grass roots participation vs funding for sports in general and see where we lie.

BSA International

Stanford wrote: »

Shooting is a minority sport, why should the taxpayer subsidise it with public funds?

Maybe because us shooters pay lots of direct and indirect taxation, licence fees and get nothing in return.

Grizzly 45

sprucemoose wrote: »

not helpful, relevant or even funny tbh

But FACTUAL!;)

Grizzly 45

Be better off looking at trying to buy or lease a disused/decomissioned army range someplace off the dept of defence and renovating that into a viable range than trying to deal with a bunch of council Jobsworths and their ren ta mob opposition.:rolleyes:

Half-cocked

Some one needs to win an Olympic gold medal in shooting! Wicklow county council rushed to build a new boxing gym in Bray when Katie Taylor won gold in boxing.

(Sadly, subsequent tragic events at that particular gym mean they won't be rushing to build anything else for sport, especially for shooting)

Grizzly 45

By and by Irish shooters bring home from European and commonwealth games and Intl comps a wheelbarrow worth of medals and prizes. This is amazing when you think that this is all self-funded down to the last red cent.

Heck, even the ARW embarrassed the best snipers the US and the Western world had to offer a few years ago..But it never gets a mention of any particular value on RTE or MSM

So if by some miracle of money, training and dedication we won a gold in any shooting discipline in Tokyo 20 whenever.
It would probably be in the "and finally"news segment of the 6/1 news...That's if a dancing cat isn't trained to do a Riverdance number in Ballygropple Co wherever...:rolleyes::rolleyes:

BattleCorp

Stanford wrote: »

""The case for a public and regulated range is well founded""......evidence for this statement please?

Shooting is a sport enjoyed by thousands of people. Many councils provide sporting facilities for their constituents to enjoy their chosen sport.

Shooting is not quite as minority a sport here as it is portrayed. I'm a member of a privately owned and run range that has approx. 400 members.

While there are differing sources, there's between 180k and 200k licenced firearms in the State. It's difficult to tell how many gun owners there are but it wouldn't be far off 100,000 people. I'd wager that if there were local facilities, many gun owners would use them.

More people in my County own guns than skateboards yet my Council has built a skate park in the small town where I live.

Half-cocked

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

By and by Irish shooters bring home from European and commonwealth games and Intl comps a wheelbarrow worth of medals and prizes. This is amazing when you think that this is all self-funded down to the last red cent.

Heck, even the ARW embarrassed the best snipers the US and the Western world had to offer a few years ago..But it never gets a mention of any particular value on RTE or MSM

So if by some miracle of money, training and dedication we won a gold in any shooting discipline in Tokyo 20 whenever.
It would probably be in the "and finally"news segment of the 6/1 news...That's if a dancing cat isn't trained to do a Riverdance number in Ballygropple Co wherever...:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Unfortunately, anything other than the Olympics is ignored by the media in most minority sports. If an Irish shooter did medal at the Olympics, it would be very revealing to see how much coverage it got in the media compared to other sports.

tudderone

Stanford wrote: »

""The case for a public and regulated range is well founded""......evidence for this statement please?

The success of the midlands rifle range in Tullamore. QED

cookimonster

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Be better off looking at trying to buy or lease a disused/decomissioned army range someplace off the dept of defence and renovating that into a viable range than trying to deal with a bunch of council Jobsworths and their ren ta mob opposition.:rolleyes:

They are lucky to hold onto exsisting ranges as it is. Too many brown envelopes and glad handing with local politicians and officials saw residential planning permission getting the go ahead in areas that they shouldn't have. Now issues on noise pollution and infringement on safety templates are rearing thier heads. Not to mention the pillocks who either ignore safety flags and signs or deem it thier right to roam.

garrettod

Stanford wrote: »

Shooting is a minority sport, why should the taxpayer subsidise it with public funds?

Is it really?

Over the years, I've seen reference to 200k - 250k licenced firearms in Ireland. If you said that it only amounted to 50,000 people, then it's hardly a minority sport, compared to many other sports that get state support of one form or another

I seriously doubt that there's that many middle aged men in extra tight spandex, cycling bikes up and down the country - it only looks like there are more of them, because they are very much in your face, these days.

Now, just think about the level of support that they are getting, not to mention the bad attitude that some have developed

tudderone

garrettod wrote: »

Is it really?

Over the years, I've seen reference to 200k - 250k licenced firearms in Ireland. If you said that it only amounted to 50,000 people, then it's hardly a minority sport, compared to many other sports that get state support of one form or another

I seriously doubt that there's that many middle aged men in extra tight spandex, cycling bikes up and down the country - it only looks like there are more of them, because they are very much in your face, these days.

Now, just think about the level of support that they are getting, not to mention the bad attitude that some have developed

Like having cycle paths installed all over the place, and they still insist on cycling in the middle of the road. Talking to two chaps who are seriously into cycling and that both said cyclist (some of them) are their own worst enemy.

garrettod

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Be better off looking at trying to buy or lease a disused/decomissioned army range someplace off the dept of defence and renovating that into a viable range than trying to deal with a bunch of council Jobsworths and their ren ta mob opposition.:rolleyes:

Now there's a good idea!

tudderone wrote: »

Like having cycle paths installed all over the place, and they still insist on cycling in the middle of the road. Talking to two chaps who are seriously into cycling and that both said cyclist (some of them) are their own worst enemy.

Don't get me started

I know that there's good and bad in every sport - but it's a sport with its own risks and dangers, yet they aren't compelled to wear helmets, have insurance, or even pass a competency test.

Grizzly 45

Half-cocked wrote: »

Unfortunately, anything other than the Olympics is ignored by the media in most minority sports. If an Irish shooter did medal at the Olympics, it would be very revealing to see how much coverage it got in the media compared to other sports.

TBH,I don't think SS gets much coverage at all in the Olympics...Seems they are even embarrassed to have it now as well. There was even talk of doing away with firearms altogether and using those lazer pointing guns you find on an arcade game instead...[Costing a few grand of course.]. look at how ridiculous it was treated in London in 2012.

A multi-million-pound shooting range was built with armed security on the competitor's guns, and then once the last few shots were fired, the demolition crews were in to get rid of it. You usually leave the facilities standing in the host country for its athletes to use,[ and for them to become white elephants as well] Strange that one...:rolleyes:

tomtucker81

tudderone wrote: »

You'd have the purple and pink haired Karens, and the wealthy student communist types up in arms, shrieking to the media who would lap up the bilge they go on with.

The student communist types would need some sort of safe place to practice with said arms, if only one were available to them at student rates.

tudderone

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

TBH,I don't think SS gets much coverage at all in the Olympics...Seems they are even embarrassed to have it now as well. There was even talk of doing away with firearms altogether and using those lazer pointing guns you find on an arcade game instead...[Costing a few grand of course.]. look at how ridiculous it was treated in London in 2012.

A multi-million-pound shooting range was built with armed security on the competitor's guns, and then once the last few shots were fired, the demolition crews were in to get rid of it. You usually leave the facilities standing in the host country for its athletes to use,[ and for them to become white elephants as well] Strange that one...:rolleyes:

There are still ranges in Central-ish London though amazingly. The Ham and Petersham R&P club in Twickenham, near Eel pie Island (seems to be a few around Twickenham). The stock exchange rifle club, which shoots at London Bridge. One in a park at Hendon ! Another in Croydon, Carshalton R&P club. One in Wimbledon. There are quite a few. I suppose most date back to a time when it was good form to be a good shot.

Can you imagine if someone decided to seek to open a gun club in the Phoenix park in Dublin or a park in Limerick or Cork, the uproar :eek:


https://wprc.plexjet.net/public/home/view/180

https://www.hprpc.co.uk

https://www.twickenhamrpc.co.uk/about-us

http://www.hhrcuk.com

Half-cocked

garrettod wrote: »

Is it really?

Over the years, I've seen reference to 200k - 250k licenced firearms in Ireland. If you said that it only amounted to 50,000 people, then it's hardly a minority sport, compared to many other sports that get state support of one form or another

I seriously doubt that there's that many middle aged men in extra tight spandex, cycling bikes up and down the country - it only looks like there are more of them, because they are very much in your face, these days.

Now, just think about the level of support that they are getting, not to mention the bad attitude that some have developed

Most of those firearms are owned by farmers and are tools of the trade rather than sports equipment. The number of sporting shooters is much lower.

Half-cocked

tudderone wrote: »

Can you imagine if someone decided to seek to open a gun club in the Phoenix park in Dublin or a park in Limerick or Cork, the uproar :eek:

The ICPSA hosted a Home International in the Phoenix Pk.

(Ok, it was back in the 1930's. How times have changed)

garrettod

Half-cocked wrote: »

Most of those firearms are owned by farmers and are tools of the trade rather than sports equipment. The number of sporting shooters is much lower.

What's that based on?

tudderone

Half-cocked wrote: »

Most of those firearms are owned by farmers and are tools of the trade rather than sports equipment. The number of sporting shooters is much lower.

Rubbish, most farmers i know have a crappy single or double barrel shotgun that would give a gunsmith nightmares, and half of them haven't a clue where the thing is half the time.

meathstevie

Stanford wrote: »

Shooting is a minority sport, why should the taxpayer subsidise it with public funds?

The taxpayer is already pumping millions into minority sports, it’s not because someone uses a legally held firearm in a particular minority sport that it should automatically exclude that sport from the public purse.

Grizzly 45

Half-cocked wrote: »

The ICPSA hosted a Home International in the Phoenix Pk.

(Ok, it was back in the 1930's. How times have changed)

Did you ever notice the Phoenix park and the other parks in Ireland have this quaint by laws that prohibits target shooting, or the use, training or drilling with arms that go back 100 plus years?:eek:

tudderone

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Did you ever notice the Phoenix park and the other parks in Ireland have this quaint by laws that prohibits target shooting, or the use, training or drilling with arms that go back 100 plus years?:eek:

Don't forget the Creedmoor cup shot at Dollymount strand in 1875. 40,000 spectators turned out to see the competition.

https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/periodicals/NZT18750827.2.24

Another interesting fact is that Trulock and Harris gunmakers of Dawson street, had a range in Lansdowne road until late Victorian times. If you bought a gun from them, you could arrange to meet them there and try the gun there !

Half-cocked

tudderone wrote: »

Rubbish, most farmers i know have a crappy single or double barrel shotgun that would give a gunsmith nightmares, and half of them haven't a clue where the thing is half the time.

Doesn't matter how crappy a gun is, it still had to be licensed. The point I was making was that the majority of firearms are owned by farmers and the sport shooting fraternity is a minority sport. Why do you say rubbish?

Half-cocked

garrettod wrote: »

What's that based on?

Total combined membership of all shooting organizations versus number of gun owners in the country, plus figures discussed with DoJ and Gardai at firearms consultative panel meetings.

BattleCorp

Half-cocked wrote: »

Most of those firearms are owned by farmers and are tools of the trade rather than sports equipment. The number of sporting shooters is much lower.

Yep, that may be so but if you built a range you would increase sport participation.

That's that the Brits did with the indoor track cycling. They were sh1te at that sport, had few participants and then invested heavily in facilities and now they are one of the best countries in the world for that sport. Hard to take part in a sport without the facilities.

As Kevin Costner said, "If you build it, they will come".

tudderone

Half-cocked wrote: »

Doesn't matter how crappy a gun is, it still had to be licensed. The point I was making was that the majority of firearms are owned by farmers and the sport shooting fraternity is a minority sport. Why do you say rubbish?

I doubt most guns are owned by farmers anymore. When i started shooting there were all sorts of restrictions on ownership. Now we can have allsorts, centrefire rifles, pistols, there are all kinds of sports to take part in now, there was nothing like the midlands rifle club when i started.

Anyway most sports are minority sports, so what ?

JP22

garrettod wrote: »

Is it really?

Over the years, I've seen reference to 200k - 250k licenced firearms in Ireland. If you said that it only amounted to 50,000 people, then it's hardly a minority sport, compared to many other sports that get state support of one form or another................. (

We have all heard various numbers over the years.

To determine the true extent of firearms ownership, we would need to know the actual number of individuals who hold licenses, of course some individuals hold several licenses, but it would be a start.

A breakdown of numbers (shotguns, rifles, pistols/revolver (shorts) held) would be interesting.

In the old days it was mainly farmers, game shooters, deer shooters and clay pigeon shooters. With licensed ranges now in operation, we can add target shooters and plinkers/hobby/recreational to the mix.

garrettod

Half-cocked wrote: »

Total combined membership of all shooting organizations versus number of gun owners in the country, plus figures discussed with DoJ and Gardai at firearms consultative panel meetings.

I'm gonna need to ask you to produce the numbers and source please - that still looks a bit too loose to rely on (no offence).

Feisar

garrettod wrote: »

I'm gonna need to ask you to produce the numbers and source please - that still looks a bit too loose to rely on (no offence).

In fairness, it's not a wild assertion to make.

It would be interesting to know how many people have a rifle for target shooting.

garrettod

Feisar wrote: »

In fairness, it's not a wild assertion to make...

Hi,

I'm not saying that it is, or it isn't... the problem is that I don't think any of us really know.

There's been more speculation about this kind of stuff, then I've had hot dinners, so I don't think it's wrong to try and ensure that we work from facts, rather than hearsay etc. That's why I'm asking.

Feisar

garrettod wrote: »

Hi,

I'm not saying that it is, or it isn't... the problem is that I don't think any of us really know.

There's been more speculation about this kind of stuff, then I've had hot dinners, so I don't think it's wrong to try and ensure that we work from facts, rather than hearsay etc. That's why I'm asking.

I get ya, it’d be interesting to know how many individuals have rifle licenses in the country.

Chiparus

sprucemoose wrote: »

not helpful, relevant or even funny tbh

Actually they are correct , many of us would remember attempts to set up an indoor range in Dalkey in the 1980s or the attempts to set one up in Ticknock in the 2000s.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=50847639

badaj0z

I have been involved in the attempted setting up of 7 ranges. I have also watched 4 more from a distance. Some have been successful, some have not. The one common factor of all the failures is how public the issue became. Some were kept quiet from the start. Some attempted PR in the locality from the start. All that became a public issue failed to go ahead. The other relevant factor is how many people live in the vicinity of the range. The higher the number, the less chance of success. As regards the title of this thread, the chance of a publicly owned shooting range is zero. The most positive thing we can all do is to at least help keep open the existing ranges by using and helping run them. The main threats to these, other than changes to the legislation, are noise and management issues. Included in the latter are operational issues and disagreements within the committees that run the club owned ones.

tudderone

Chiparus wrote: »

Actually they are correct , many of us would remember attempts to set up an indoor range in Dalkey in the 1980s or the attempts to set one up in Ticknock in the 2000s.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=50847639

I remember that. Pity as it was an actual military range, and i do remember it being used back in the 80's by the free clothes association, god i am getting old. That was back before ticknock became a parade ground for fat oul lads on pushbikes.

jb88

Stanford wrote: »

""The case for a public and regulated range is well founded""......evidence for this statement please?

Just use the big G in your icons there and look up US Ranges.

Hope that helps

badaj0z

I should add that there have been 3 failed attempts, that I know of, to open ranges based on disused Army Ranges, viz., Ticknock, Kilpeddar and the Devils's Bit in Tipperary. When you look at the number of disused Ex Army ranges around the country, I am sure there must have been more that did not enter the media.

Grizzly 45

badaj0z wrote: »

I have been involved in the attempted setting up of 7 ranges. I have also watched 4 more from a distance. Some have been successful, some have not. The one common factor of all the failures is how public the issue became. Some were kept quiet from the start. Some attempted PR in the locality from the start. All that became a public issue failed to go ahead. The other relevant factor is how many people live in the vicinity of the range. The higher the number, the less chance of success. As regards the title of this thread, the chance of a publicly owned shooting range is zero. The most positive thing we can all do is to at least help keep open the existing ranges by using and helping run them. The main threats to these, other than changes to the legislation, are noise and management issues. Included in the latter are operational issues and disagreements within the committees that run the club owned ones.

Question? What if a range was set up in a non-residential area,like an industrial area of a town where "noise and pollution" was part of life even on weekends?

Was looking at some redeveloped industrial units down here in Limerick, where a range would be a possibility.Or even a 40foot self-contained range could be put in the container park?

We keep thinking of ranges having to be out in the country...maybe reverse and think the cities and warehousing or industrial areas for a range?