Belarus forces Ryanair plane to divert *NO GENERAL POLITICS* *MOD WARNING POST 1*

BorneTobyWilde

harmless wrote: »

So you're the pilot and you have been given info that there is possibly a bomb on board and the hijackers have demanded you route to Minsk or it will go off.

You keep going for the border and risk everyone onboard?

So if they didn't turn they would have shot it down, and stuck to the bomb story?

zom

PommieBast wrote: »

There seems to be similarities with the Evo Morales grounding when the US was after Edward Snowden.

Its not hijacking when WE do it?

ted1

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

"The outrageous and illegal behaviour of the regime in Belarus will have consequences"

Thats a lot more than words like "concerned".

They did nothing about Israel committing war crimes snd genocide. They’ll do nothing here

Jack1985

MOL will be on Newstalk breakfast tomorrow AM with Simon Coveney.

ZX7R

More info on rte website seemingly a kgb officers initiated a fight with Ryanair crew insisting there was an IED bomb on board

ted1

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

If I was the pilot I would have kept going, he was seconds from border.

Hindsight is great.

Jack1985

Some video emerges after arrival in Minsk, this screams BORAT vibes to me. The Great state of Belarus deals with its free press.

https://twitter.com/BFreeTheatre/status/1396567115038068738?s=20

crushproof

In terms of Ryanairs response to this I doubt they'll do much, and their press release confirms this.

There is a huge untapped market out that direction and they're already playing catch up with Wizzair who have expanded through the former Soviet states in recent years. Ryanair is all about the €€€ so they won't want politics getting in the way of future expansion.

expectationlost

so they want to trap people in Belarus? https://twitter.com/NaomiOhReally/status/1396572001590992905

refusetolose

crushproof wrote: »

In terms of Ryanairs response to this I doubt they'll do much, and their press release confirms this.

There is a huge untapped market out that direction and they're already playing catch up with Wizzair who have expanded through the former Soviet states in recent years. Ryanair is all about the €€€ so they won't want politics getting in the way of future expansion.

and rightly so.

dockysher

Did they try saying another mass ?

ClosedAccountFuzzy

To sum this up: an intra-EU flight, between two EU cities gets forced (with military jet escort) to land in a third country under false pretences of a bomb on board, so that someone could seize a passenger.

It’s an enormous problem and needs a serious response, which will probably have to include restricting flights over Belarus.

It’s basically a state sponsored hijacking.

ClosedAccountFuzzy

Civilian flights pass over countries all the time without any risk to them. This goes way, way outside the norms of international aviation and that can’t go without a response at the very least to prevent further such incidents.

Even causing an emergency landing under false pretences is absolutely unacceptable behaviour for any civil aviation authority.

paul71

Lmkrnr wrote: »

I think this lad won't be involved in any colour revolutions for awhile. They call him a blogger but he's clearly an EU stooge.

EU stooge? Like the several million Belarusians ensalved by law on collective farms or the students who have been "suicided", included the poor chap who climbed a tree with broken legs and without a ladder to "suicide" himself.

Get a grip on reality and stop being a Putin and Lukashenko stooge.

Scuid Mhór

paul71 wrote: »

The Belarusian dictatorship, do keep up.

You beat me to it Paul, apologies.

paul71

Back on topic Belarus is a vile disgusting dictatorship. The torture and murder of opposition is well documented and I worry for the safety of this young man.

ClosedAccountFuzzy

It’s also a significant safety risk, placing an aircraft into a state of potential on board panic and causing them to divert from their flight plan, putting crew under extreme stress and forcing them to land at an unfamiliar airport.

All of the above increases the risk of an accident or incident.

You simply do not put aircraft into unnecessary danger or complications unless absolutely unavoidable. The whole philosophy behind civil aviation safety culture is about removing as many unexpected scenarios as possible and making things safely procedural and predictable. It’s all about risk minimisation.

It also places passengers under enormous stress. It’s not unheard of for someone to have a heart attack or asthma attack in a situation like that.

The whole thing was just totally unacceptable from any perspective.

ClosedAccountFuzzy

There are many incidents in many countries that are abhorrent and unacceptable, but when it comes to government responses, proximity (in this case an Irish airline) will tend to trigger a stronger response.

They did respond to the incidents you’re mentioning, but it’s impossible to respond the same to absolutely everything. We live in a world with a lot of horrible incidents and unfortunately all any of us can do is respond as best as we can. Things that are closer to us will tend to get noticed more.

It’s not a lack of empathy or caring, but it’s just that the incident being discussed directly impacts an Irish airline.

The international community could do a lot more for many, many issues and there are undoubtedly powerful economic and oil interests everyone afraid to offend and hand wring around, but this is an aviation thread and the topic being discussed is an one concerning an Irish airline.

ClosedAccountFuzzy

Lmkrnr wrote: »

All hearsay.

Like it or not by objective analysis it ranks 148th in the world in terms of democracy and is classified as an authoritarian regime.

That’s not just hearsay, nor is it a slight in the people either.

The reality is you’re talking about countries that came out of the authoritarian regime of the Soviet system and have only barely had a couple of decades of experience with democracy.

paul71

Lmkrnr wrote: »

Totally disagree, it has nothing to do with ordinary Belarusians.

It has everything to do with the ordinary Belarusians like the young man whose life is in danger by "suicide" and the 2 million collective farm slaves.

paul71

Lmkrnr wrote: »

All hearsay.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/belarus-news-protester-found-hanged-from-tree-minsk-not-suicide-friends-blame-lukashenko-police/

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-11189609

The murders of Oleg Bebinin and Nikita Krivtsov, and claims by Belarusian Police that they were suicide are not heresay. They are fact, and to claim they are hearsay is an insult to their families and them.

https://news.sky.com/video/screams-of-belarus-protesters-heard-from-prison-12055922

The screams of 1,000s of protestors being beaten and tortured as recorded by their families outside prison gates are not hearsay!

https://www.dw.com/en/belarus-accused-of-re-introducing-forced-labor/a-16529451

Belarus reintroduced serfdom on state collective farms in 2012, that is fact not hearsay.

paul71

Lmkrnr wrote: »

So by that logic ordinary Germans are responsible for the Holocaust?

Well done on failing to twist a post, he said "Belarusians who support him" not ordinary Belarusians, so yes Germans who supported the Nazis are to blame for the actions of the Nazis, ergo Belarusias who support Lusashenko are also responsible for his crimes, and the victims of those crimes are ordinary Belarusians.

Scot_in_Dublin

Lmkrnr wrote: »

I think this lad won't be involved in any colour revolutions for awhile. They call him a blogger but he's clearly an EU stooge.

Late to the thread. And this may be revealed to be a poor attempt at sarcasm or such. But, really. EU stooge. Guy is likely to die at the hands of the state. If you're all for that, I'd suggest you get the next flight, fully unscheduled stops, to there. You could be their next big TV anchor. May have missed a letter on that somewhere.

Scot_in_Dublin

Realistically, this isn't a Ryanair issue, nor an Irish issue, or an EU issue. This is kinda NATO level. Be really sad to have to do it but perhaps fights going that way may need to be escorted.

L1011

Lmkrnr wrote: »

So by that logic ordinary Germans are responsible for the Holocaust?

Take your trolling elsewhere. Do not post on this thread again

Dempo1

Bambi wrote: »

Should be very simple to deny access to European airspace for flights into and out of Belarussia.

Listening to Coveney on RADIO 1, I'm sure if the regime are listening in, they'll be shaking in their boots (not), surely to deny European airspace won't bother this regime in the slightest, their main route of concern is directly to Russia, they won't care too much if their citiz can fly in European airspace, infact, it would suit the regime nicely I would have thought.

Scot_in_Dublin

Dempo1 wrote: »

Listening to Coveney on RADIO 1, I'm sure if the regime are listening in, they'll be shaking in their boots (not), surely to deny European airspace won't bother this regime in the slightest, their main route of concern is directly to Russia, they won't care too much if their citiz can fly in European airspace, infact, it would suit the regime nicely I would have thought.

True. But perhaps we need to start 'escorting' flights from anywhere near these borders. A MiG being escorted by a couple of the newer 'Euro' fighters back to the edge of their local airspace would be interesting. Much as the RAF have been doing with the Russian long range bombers that like to come down this way every now and then

Scot_in_Dublin

Scot_in_Dublin wrote: »

True. But perhaps we need to start 'escorting' flights from anywhere near these borders. A MiG being escorted by a couple of the newer 'Euro' fighters back to the edge of their local airspace would be interesting. Much as the RAF have been doing with the Russian long range bombers that like to come down this way every now and then

There does seem to be, I'd like to almost call it, bravado? Bits swinging? No consequence pretty much. Rapid response from the airforce bases in the EU and UK are not only needed but perhaps we should be pushing flights to their borders also? Maybe I'm just havering...

Nijmegen

Scot_in_Dublin wrote: »

There does seem to be, I'd like to almost call it, bravado? Bits swinging? No consequence pretty much. Rapid response from the airforce bases in the EU and UK are not only needed but perhaps we should be pushing flights to their borders also? Maybe I'm just havering...

Whilst I’m all for saying the EU needs to get tougher on countries like this and Putin allies and proxies, you do have to be proportional. Probably having NATO aircraft screaming towards their border and pulling away last second allows them to escalate and in situations like that, someone gets hurt.

The correct responses are probably still in the civil aviation and economic realm. But even they are not guaranteed - from EU countries willing to veto anti-Putin/ally measures to those looking to soften the cough for economic / energy security reasons, there’s a lot to get past.

That being said this act was so brazen and so newsworthy they may have to act.

I think the details of how forceful they were in getting the plane down will also drive the severity of the response, for example was the MiG threatening to shoot at them.

Scot_in_Dublin

Nijmegen wrote: »

Whilst I’m all for saying the EU needs to get tougher on countries like this and Putin allies and proxies, you do have to be proportional. Probably having NATO aircraft screaming towards their border and pulling away last second allows them to escalate and in situations like that, someone gets hurt.

The correct responses are probably still in the civil aviation and economic realm. But even they are not guaranteed - from EU countries willing to veto anti-Putin/ally measures to those looking to soften the cough for economic / energy security reasons, there’s a lot to get past.

That being said this act was so brazen and so newsworthy they may have to act.

I think the details of how forceful they were in getting the plane down will also drive the severity of the response, for example was the MiG threatening to shoot at them.

I think, if they hadn't brought a MiG into it, they may have been able to successfully spin it as a 'potential bomb threat'. The fact they dispatched that fully armed aircraft, when the flight was less than 10 minutes from it's original destination airport, and forced it to fly to Minsk, really messed up any chance of, of no it was for passenger and crew safety.

JohnC.

Scot_in_Dublin wrote: »

I think, if they hadn't brought a MiG into it, they may have been able to successfully spin it as a 'potential bomb threat'. The fact they dispatched that fully armed aircraft, when the flight was less than 10 minutes from it's original destination airport, and forced it to fly to Minsk, really messed up any chance of, of no it was for passenger and crew safety.

These days, post 9/11, I think it’s pretty routine for an aircraft allegedly under threat to have an escort like that. Certainly happens in US and UK.

Scot_in_Dublin

JohnC. wrote: »

These days, post 9/11, I think it’s pretty routine for an aircraft allegedly under threat to have an escort like that. Certainly happens in US and UK.

To an extent I agree. But you don't ask an aircraft that is on a close aproach to its final destination to suddenly divert to another country under armed escort.

robinph

JohnC. wrote: »

These days, post 9/11, I think it’s pretty routine for an aircraft allegedly under threat to have an escort like that. Certainly happens in US and UK.

Also normal for them to get diverted to an alternative airport, although not normally the main airport in your capital and probably also not 3 minutes before it ceases to be your problem by flying out of your airspace.

plodder

I think it's more an EU thing than a NATO thing, and it's understandable that Simon Coveney focused on the hijacking aspect, but the kidnapping part isn't over. This incident is a lot like the way Russia has been bumping off its own citizens it wants to get rid of but are resident in other countries. So, surely the EU should be focusing on measures to get the guy returned alive and safe to his home, while he is still alive?

BailMeOut

Slightly off-topic and while this is a terrible event surely RyanAir must be loving the worldwide attention and free publicity as there is a picture of their aircraft on pretty much every newspaper in the world today?

jmayo

BailMeOut wrote: »

Slightly off-topic and while this is a terrible event surely RyanAir must be loving the worldwide attention and free publicity as there is a picture of their aircraft on pretty much every newspaper in the world today?

There is only one type of bad publicity with regards Airlines - accidents.

As O'Leary commented, the crew did a great job in some very unusual and actually scary circumstances.

Also did O'Leary make a comment about "KGB" being also on board and they left aircraft once it landed.
Wouldn't be surprised if the Belarusians had been following the guy.

BTW Belarusians in this sense are government state employees and government lackies. Just sayin' for the benefit of some pedantic types.

zom

plodder wrote: »

I think it's more an EU thing than a NATO thing,

In 2013, several European countries blocked Evo Morales’s Bolivian state plane from using their airspace because of suspicions that Edward Snowden, who was on the plane and also faced death penalty. But it is not a crime when we do it...;)

cailinoBAC

Just still can't believe this! Well be interesting to see who exactly did not get back on board. 2 Belarusians and 4 Russians. One of each is Roman and his girlfriend. KGB would be Belarusian secret service, but since most of the others are Russian, are people just referring to KGB as the generic ex Soviet secret service (like it was really the Russians). The opposition leader was on the same flight last week. I see airbaltic seems to be avoiding flying over Belarus this morning.

AlfaZen

zom wrote: »

In 2013, several European countries blocked Evo Morales’s Bolivian state plane from using their airspace because of suspicions that Edward Snowden, who was on the plane and also faced death penalty. But it is not a crime when we do it...;)

So they blocked the plane from using the airspace.....

They didn't claim a false bomb scare and force the plane to land with a military jet escort, remove Snowden from the plane never to be seen again.

Yea, its the same thing.

plodder

zom wrote: »

In 2013, several European countries blocked Evo Morales’s Bolivian state plane from using their airspace because of suspicions that Edward Snowden, who was on the plane and also faced death penalty. But it is not a crime when we do it...;)

Been discussed on the thread extensively

Christy42

zom wrote: »

In 2013, several European countries blocked Evo Morales’s Bolivian state plane from using their airspace because of suspicions that Edward Snowden, who was on the plane and also faced death penalty. But it is not a crime when we do it...;)

The US has killed many innocent civilians. Murder is still considered to be a crime. What happened to Snowden was wrong and I believe he should be pardoned.

However in this case I also believe a journalist should not be kidnapped and tortured nor do I believe that passenger flights should be diverted under false pretenses. But sure since a western country did it once we can stop caring about the fact that the journalist is soon to fall out of a 10th story window.

paul71

JohnC. wrote: »

These days, post 9/11, I think it’s pretty routine for an aircraft allegedly under threat to have an escort like that. Certainly happens in US and UK.

Ryanair operate a hundreds of flights a day. 100s of thousands a year. Millions in a decade, never once have I heard of a bomb on one of these flights.

Yet when a journalist critical of despositic criminal murderous regime is overflying that regime then sudenly there is a bomb? A remarkable story.

fly_agaric

plodder wrote: »

Been discussed on the thread extensively

Been bruited about in so many places all at once on English language Internet (probably many other languages too...) by lots of "people" since yesterday. That is fascinating in and of itself given it is a (formerly) obscure event from 8 years ago! One has to laugh (vs cry) I suppose.

Traumadoc

Is Julian Assange still in prison?

bb12

i absolutely believe belarus would have shot down this plane if they had ignored instructions to turn back...then would have conveniently blamed it on a bomb onboard. russia has previous form for this when they shot that airliner down during the crimea conflict. those passengers yesterday had a very lucky escape.

that young man is very much on my mind today. these despotic leaders are doing their best to pull the world back into the era of the cold war. and they've been getting away with it for too long...no wonder there is such a rise around the world in this type of leader; russia, brazil, turkey, hungary...in the grand scheme of things, all of our democracies are at risk if these guys are continued to be let get away with actions such as these and they are going to continue to get more brazen as times goes on

tjhook

If somebody could please relieve me of my ignorance...

I see a report that "Lithuania and Latvia were among countries which called for all international flights to avoid Belarusian airspace as a sanction against Belarusian authorities".

How would this be a sanction? They must be talking about flights passing through the airspace - if they meant flights to/from Belarus surely they'd say that.

I always assumed that it was an expense for a country to manage flights through its airspace. Less traffic = less expense? Or does a country get paid when foreign aircraft pass though? If the latter, Ireland must do pretty well with all the traffic between USA and Europe.

AlfaZen

tjhook wrote: »

If somebody could please relieve me of my ignorance...

I see a report that "Lithuania and Latvia were among countries which called for all international flights to avoid Belarusian airspace as a sanction against Belarusian authorities".

How would this be a sanction? They must be talking about flights passing through the airspace - if they meant flights to/from Belarus surely they'd say that.

I always assumed that it was an expense for a country to manage flights through its airspace. Less traffic = less expense? Or does a country get paid when foreign aircraft pass though? If the latter, Ireland must do pretty well with all the traffic between USA and Europe.

I'm not sure of the costs/charges involved for airlines but I think it just sets out to make an example of them. Plus it might affect Cargo flights into the country also.

Hansanter

Strange, after what happened yesterday at 1100 hrs today that Wizzair (W66285/WZZ6285 Kiev to Tallinn) are prepared to avoid Belarus yet Ryanair (FR3340/RYR7BJ Pafos to Tallinn) are not.
H./

Noxegon

tjhook wrote: »

I always assumed that it was an expense for a country to manage flights through its airspace. Less traffic = less expense? Or does a country get paid when foreign aircraft pass though? If the latter, Ireland must do pretty well with all the traffic between USA and Europe.

They get paid:

https://simpleflying.com/overflight-fees/

xper

tjhook wrote: »

If somebody could please relieve me of my ignorance...

I see a report that "Lithuania and Latvia were among countries which called for all international flights to avoid Belarusian airspace as a sanction against Belarusian authorities".

How would this be a sanction? They must be talking about flights passing through the airspace - if they meant flights to/from Belarus surely they'd say that.

Well, such a sanction would cover flights to, from and over Belarus so works on all coutns. Or maybe its mis-reported/mis-translated/mis-spoken.

I always assumed that it was an expense for a country to manage flights through its airspace. Less traffic = less expense? Or does a country get paid when foreign aircraft pass though? If the latter, Ireland must do pretty well with all the traffic between USA and Europe.

As mentioned above, airlines pay for ATC services. The IAA makes a nice little profit for the state (in normal years anyway) in no small part thanks to Ireland's strategic position under trans-Atlantic air routes.

JohnC. wrote: »

These days, post 9/11, I think it’s pretty routine for an aircraft allegedly under threat to have an escort like that. Certainly happens in US and UK.

Yes, lots of cases of alert fighers being scrambled to escort civil aircraft with issues though lack of communications from said airliner would probably be a more common than a bomb threat. Of course, in this Belarus case, the "bomb threat" was a hoax perpetrated by the state scrambling the fighter jets so completely different kettle of fish but would have been plausible to the flight crew depending on what they were being told.

Scot_in_Dublin wrote: »

To an extent I agree. But you don't ask an aircraft that is on a close aproach to its final destination to suddenly divert to another country under armed escort.

robinph wrote: »

Also normal for them to get diverted to an alternative airport, although not normally the main airport in your capital and probably also not 3 minutes before it ceases to be your problem by flying out of your airspace.

I think we can take it that the non-routine engagement with the Belarus authorities began a long time before the Ryanair aircraft made the 180 degree turn just short of the Lithuanian border. While it was only 3-4 mins flying time from the FIR boundary, it was still at 39,000ft. From that positon, it would have taken nearly as long to get down into Vilnius as Minsk. Flightradar tweeted an image illustrating this flight's vertical profile varied drastically from its previous ones where descent to Vilnius would normally begin a long way back in Belarus airspace. Its reasonable to assume that things probably kicked off shortly after they entered Belrussian airspace - they only has 25 minutes or so to execute their plan. Exactly what kciking off entailed is still unclear. The Belarussians talk about a bomb threat while tere are also reports about the 'agents' an board taking some sort of action though the latter doesnt seem to be widely reported through main news chanenls or authority statements.