Belarus forces Ryanair plane to divert *NO GENERAL POLITICS* *MOD WARNING POST 1*

Noxegon

tjhook wrote: »

I always assumed that it was an expense for a country to manage flights through its airspace. Less traffic = less expense? Or does a country get paid when foreign aircraft pass though? If the latter, Ireland must do pretty well with all the traffic between USA and Europe.

They get paid:

https://simpleflying.com/overflight-fees/

xper

tjhook wrote: »

If somebody could please relieve me of my ignorance...

I see a report that "Lithuania and Latvia were among countries which called for all international flights to avoid Belarusian airspace as a sanction against Belarusian authorities".

How would this be a sanction? They must be talking about flights passing through the airspace - if they meant flights to/from Belarus surely they'd say that.

Well, such a sanction would cover flights to, from and over Belarus so works on all coutns. Or maybe its mis-reported/mis-translated/mis-spoken.

I always assumed that it was an expense for a country to manage flights through its airspace. Less traffic = less expense? Or does a country get paid when foreign aircraft pass though? If the latter, Ireland must do pretty well with all the traffic between USA and Europe.

As mentioned above, airlines pay for ATC services. The IAA makes a nice little profit for the state (in normal years anyway) in no small part thanks to Ireland's strategic position under trans-Atlantic air routes.

JohnC. wrote: »

These days, post 9/11, I think it’s pretty routine for an aircraft allegedly under threat to have an escort like that. Certainly happens in US and UK.

Yes, lots of cases of alert fighers being scrambled to escort civil aircraft with issues though lack of communications from said airliner would probably be a more common than a bomb threat. Of course, in this Belarus case, the "bomb threat" was a hoax perpetrated by the state scrambling the fighter jets so completely different kettle of fish but would have been plausible to the flight crew depending on what they were being told.

Scot_in_Dublin wrote: »

To an extent I agree. But you don't ask an aircraft that is on a close aproach to its final destination to suddenly divert to another country under armed escort.

robinph wrote: »

Also normal for them to get diverted to an alternative airport, although not normally the main airport in your capital and probably also not 3 minutes before it ceases to be your problem by flying out of your airspace.

I think we can take it that the non-routine engagement with the Belarus authorities began a long time before the Ryanair aircraft made the 180 degree turn just short of the Lithuanian border. While it was only 3-4 mins flying time from the FIR boundary, it was still at 39,000ft. From that positon, it would have taken nearly as long to get down into Vilnius as Minsk. Flightradar tweeted an image illustrating this flight's vertical profile varied drastically from its previous ones where descent to Vilnius would normally begin a long way back in Belarus airspace. Its reasonable to assume that things probably kicked off shortly after they entered Belrussian airspace - they only has 25 minutes or so to execute their plan. Exactly what kciking off entailed is still unclear. The Belarussians talk about a bomb threat while tere are also reports about the 'agents' an board taking some sort of action though the latter doesnt seem to be widely reported through main news chanenls or authority statements.

Nijmegen

It's pretty (very?) interesting / odd that Ryanair are overflying the country the next day.

A lot of the other traffic are Russian airlines, inc Aeroflot. Doubt they'll ever get escorted to the ground.

Muahahaha

Just wondering in that scenario yesterday when a fighter jet pulls alongside the captains side of the cockpit does he have any instrument in the cockpit to tell if there are other fighter jets behind him or overhead, is there a close proximity radar that would show other aircraft on a screen.

PreCocious

Muahahaha wrote: »

Just wondering in that scenario yesterday when a fighter jet pulls alongside the captains side of the cockpit does he have any instrument in the cockpit to tell if there are other fighter jets behind him or overhead, is there a close proximity radar that would show other aircraft on a screen.

He uses the wing mirrors.

plodder

xper wrote: »

I think we can take it that the non-routine engagement with the Belarus authorities began a long time before the Ryanair aircraft made the 180 degree turn just short of the Lithuanian border. While it was only 3-4 mins flying time from the FIR boundary, it was still at 39,000ft. From that positon, it would have taken nearly as long to get down into Vilnius as Minsk. Flightradar tweeted an image illustrating this flight's vertical profile varied drastically from its previous ones where descent to Vilnius would normally begin a long way back in Belarus airspace. Its reasonable to assume that things probably kicked off shortly after they entered Belrussian airspace - they only has 25 minutes or so to execute their plan. Exactly what kciking off entailed is still unclear. The Belarussians talk about a bomb threat while tere are also reports about the 'agents' an board taking some sort of action though the latter doesnt seem to be widely reported through main news chanenls or authority statements.

True. FR24 shows a flight on May 16 and it seems to start its descent roughly halfway into Belorussian territory. So, I suppose that shows that the engagement started 10-15 minutes before it turned around, or maybe earlier.

Fann Linn

Not right at all what happened here. However I hope Coveney and MM gets just as upset the next time a US rendition flight lands at Shannon.

cnocbui

Muahahaha wrote: »

Just wondering in that scenario yesterday when a fighter jet pulls alongside the captains side of the cockpit does he have any instrument in the cockpit to tell if there are other fighter jets behind him or overhead, is there a close proximity radar that would show other aircraft on a screen.

I beleive civillian planes mostly rely on other planes having radar transponders turned on, which do show on a display, but military planes wouldn't normally have transponders turned on.

So basically no. Mk. 1 eyeballs in the main cabin would be the primary proximity sensors.

Strumms

They would have a system called TCAS ( Traffic Collision Avoidance System )

It’s wont identify the type or origin/callsign of the aircraft

Muahahaha

cnocbui wrote: »

I beleive civillian planes mostly rely on other planes having radar transponders turned on, which do show on a display, but military planes wouldn't normally have transponders turned on.

So basically no. Mk. 1 eyeballs in the main cabin would be the primary proximity sensors.

Yeah was wondering about the transponders and if in this scenario the fighter jets would have theirs switched on because they want the pilot to know that he is surrounded by more than one of them.

Would the tail of a modern plane have a rear facing camera the pilot could look at? And are there any external cameras on a plane that give a pilot a visual of safety issues like a wing icing up or landing gear not deploying

grassylawn

Fann Linn wrote: »

Not right at all what happened here. However I hope Coveney and MM gets just as upset the next time a US rendition flight lands at Shannon.

That is a non-sequitur. The USA don't hijack Irish aircraft.

Fann Linn

grassylawn wrote: »

That is a non-sequitur. The USA don't hijack Irish aircraft.

Agreed. Not hijacking but there have been allegations of kidnapping.

Hoboo

bb12 wrote: »

i absolutely believe belarus would have shot down this plane if they had ignored instructions to turn back...then would have conveniently blamed it on a bomb onboard. russia has previous form for this when they shot that airliner down during the crimea conflict. those passengers yesterday had a very lucky escape.

that young man is very much on my mind today. these despotic leaders are doing their best to pull the world back into the era of the cold war. and they've been getting away with it for too long...no wonder there is such a rise around the world in this type of leader; russia, brazil, turkey, hungary...in the grand scheme of things, all of our democracies are at risk if these guys are continued to be let get away with actions such as these and they are going to continue to get more brazen as times goes on

More brazen? That shipped long sailed after the Saudi state murder of Jamal Khashoggi. And the world did nothing.Our democracy isn't at risk because it's nothing more than a fantasy to maintain order.

cailinoBAC

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-57180275.amp

grassylawn

Hoboo wrote: »

More brazen? That shipped long sailed after the Saudi state murder of Jamal Khashoggi. And the world did nothing.Our democracy isn't at risk because it's nothing more than a fantasy to maintain order.

The moral equivalences are missing the point. It's about violent actions by a state against an Irish airline and an employee of a Polish company.

Irish Steve

We have a train wreck on our hands, and cleaning it up is going to take a while. Once I've deleted a shed load of posts that are the result of a (now banned) troll, it will be back. Until then, it's closed so that I can deal with the mess it left behind.

20 minutes later.

OK, so I have just deleted over 60 posts that had become pretty meaningless after the deletion of a very significant number of troill posts from one user, who is now not going to bother us again any time soon.

Apologies to users whos posts have been deleted where they quoted the troll, the thread had become very hard to follow as a result of this, so it needed a dramatic clean up to get is back to making some sort of sense.

xper

Strumms wrote: »

They would have a system called TCAS ( Traffic Collision Avoidance System )

It’s wont identify the type or origin/callsign of the aircraft

TCAS only works where both aircraft are fitted with and have activated a compatible transponder. Military aircraft could choose whether to have theirs on or not for good (from their point of view) operational reasons.
In a more benign example, if a fighter jet was intercepting an airliner that had lost radio communications, deactivating TCAS might be a good idea in order to not provoke the airliner's crew into following a mandatory manoeuvre due to a resolution avoidance alert from TCAS as it closed in.

Muahahaha wrote: »

Yeah was wondering about the transponders and if in this scenario the fighter jets would have theirs switched on because they want the pilot to know that he is surrounded by more than one of them.

Would the tail of a modern plane have a rear facing camera the pilot could look at? And are there any external cameras on a plane that give a pilot a visual of safety issues like a wing icing up or landing gear not deploying

Not on a B737-800. (There is a forward-looking enhanced vision option but Ryanair don't have that and would be irrelevant in this scenario).
A380's and some other more recent large models have external cameras primarily to aid with taxi-ing (and, incidentally, for passenger entertainment) but I am not aware of anything that gives a good view rearward or why you would want to (checking for a trailing fighter jet not being a reasonable scenario to cater for). At the end of the day, if a pilot is told by ATC that an intercept has been initiated, it would be incredibly foolhardy and irresponsible to call their bluff. A MIG-29 is well able to shoot down an airliner from beyond visual range.

xper

cailinoBAC wrote: »

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-57180275.amp

The passenger statements would seem to rule out that 'agents' on board took any action and that the diversion was entirely provoked by external communications to the cockpit.

igCorcaigh

Hmm.

https://twitter.com/Conflicts/status/1396811343584505856?s=19

igCorcaigh

igCorcaigh wrote: »

Hmm.

https://twitter.com/Conflicts/status/1396811343584505856?s=19

Seems to be all clear now.

Homelander

More of a geography question than anything but have I gone mad and imagined that it was ever pronounced as "Bela-roose-ee-an" rather than "Bella-Russian"?

I've always said the former but hearing it as the latter anywhere I've heard it today. I thought it might be a UK/US thing but hearing some US-based correspondents also saying "Bella-russian" today as well.

stephenjmcd

UK Transport Secretary Grant Shapps said he has instructed the Civil Aviation Authority to request airlines avoid Belarusian airspace in order to keep passengers safe and has suspended Belarus’ national airline Belavia’s operating permit

cailinoBAC

Belorussia is an older soviet style name. It should be Belarusian not Belorussian but some people take a long time to change. Similar to people talking about The Ukraine rather than Ukraine.

ClosedAccountFuzzy

Just saw Thomas Byrne TD on CNN with Becky Anderson. Seems the Irish Government is pushing fairly hard for an EU response.

Cookiemunster

Polo2020 wrote: »

And what about Éire and Ireland? is the latter just and older British Empire style name? ))

They're the two official and correct names of the country in each of the recognised languages.

tobefrank321

FuzzyThinking wrote: »

Just saw Thomas Byrne TD on CNN with Becky Anderson. Seems the Irish Government is pushing fairly hard for an EU response.

Not much they can do that hasn't been done already. They could ban Belarus flights but there are ways around that such as flying to Russia and getting on a Russian plane.

The blogger in question will be lucky to come through this alive. Absolutely brutal dictator in Belarus.

Polar101

Belarus official claiming that the flight was diverted, because they received a bomb threat from Hamas.

He said the group demanded that the "European Union renounces its support for Israel in this war" and if it did not fulfill their demands: "The bomb will explode over Vilnius on May 23".

..pretty pathetic material.

https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2021/0524/1223554-belarus-ryanair-flight/

monseiur

What happened to the Ryanair flight is a minor incident in the eyes of the ruling mob / dictators in power in certain Eastern Eurpean countries, they'll just have a good belly laugh about it while downing a few Vodkas
A Malaysian plane, enroute from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur was shot down in eastern Ukraine 6 or 7 years ago killing all 300 passengers - it didn't exactly start world war 3..............but things may be different now Simon Covney is in power and he may annihilate them with his pea shooter !

ClosedAccountFuzzy

Polar101 wrote: »

Belarus official claiming that the flight was diverted, because they received a bomb threat from Hamas.



..pretty pathetic material.

https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2021/0524/1223554-belarus-ryanair-flight/

If they're going to make stuff up, at least make something that seems even vaguely credible.

grassylawn

FuzzyThinking wrote: »

If they're going to make stuff up, at least make something that seems even vaguely credible.

It's not about being believed. It's about giving someone an excuse to not respond. Making that excuse unbelievable is a way of posturing as being powerful. They don't want people to believe it. They want people to know what they did.