The great myths of housing

sprucemoose

C14N wrote: »

Right, but that's why I'm saying they'll do it, because it will make them money. Trying to sell an apartment with no parking is objectively harder than trying to sell one with money. A parking space ads value, and in many cases will allow a higher sale price than it costs to build.

the build cost in general will outweigh the cost recouped from sale - in general we're talking about a basement or an extra floor, this is not cheap

C14N wrote: »

Natural light doesn't only come from having a dual aspect. It's not a case of dual aspect vs no windows at all, it's a case of dual aspect vs a single aspect. Even a north-facing single-aspect apartment will get plenty of natural light, even if it's not direct sunlight.

i know this already (except the parts you are incorrect about). however, windows on multiple facades are desirable as light pentration varies due to time of day. your statement that a north-facing window will get 'plenty' of sunlight is not strictly true either as any light entering the space will be around the window itself, with very little light penetration

sprucemoose

sprucemoose wrote: »

no, but smaller units would generally be corner units.

i dont know what 'just do light' means?

Measure light, make light not dual aspect the requirement.

C14N

sprucemoose wrote: »

i know this already

So why even bring up the effect of natural light on personal wellbeing and mental health? I never made any statement that said apartments shouldn't have some kind of natural light.

sprucemoose wrote: »

your statement that a north-facing window will get 'plenty' of sunlight is not strictly true either as any light entering the space will be around the window itself, with very little light penetration

I didn't say sunlight, I said natural light. I specifically said it won't get direct sunlight. In my previous apartment (which was dual aspect), the room where I did all my working from home was north-west facing, so I got no direct sunlight until the evening (when I was no longer even using the room), but the room was still plenty bright from natural light. In fact, if I had been getting direct sunlight during the day I'd probably have to close the blinds to reduce the glare. The kitchen/living area was on the opposite side. I would have been quite happy to have both rooms on the same side of the building, especially if I was a buyer and it was able to knock some money off the price.

sprucemoose

fvp4 wrote: »

Measure light, make light not dual aspect the requirement.

that actually makes a bit of sense, youre the first person to make an argument against the DA requirement that is actually worthwhile. having said that, a dual-aspect design is still the better option due to light penetration varying because of sun position, but i take your point all the same. I'd argue both should be requirements really

sprucemoose

C14N wrote: »

So why even bring up the effect of natural light on personal wellbeing and mental health? I never made any statement that said apartments shouldn't have some kind of natural light.

that wasnt what i was referring to, you were (sort of) explaining how light works

C14N wrote: »

I didn't say sunlight, I said natural light. I specifically said it won't get direct sunlight.

fair enough. sunlight is more important for reasons previously mentioned, but fair enough

C14N wrote: »

especially if I was a buyer and it was able to knock some money off the price.

if a unit had no windows im sure you could get it very cheap but thats not the point, building regs are (among many other things) about providing better quality buildings rather than economy. and as ive repeatedly explained, if something is required and becomes the market norm, then the premium on this will go away

James Bond Junior

I live in an apartment abroad. 2 bed with large balcony. Both bedrooms are bigger than my main bedrooms in my 3 bed in Ireland. Kitchen is twice the size. The living/dining area would easily take the entire floor plan of my Irish house. The purchase price for this apartment in this development is around €240k and it is in a prime location in the most sought after area of this city. I have a marina within 45 secs walk and a private beach within 5 mins. I can't see myself leaving this apartment until the day comes that we move home. Even if a small person came along, we wouldn't bother moving as it is perfect.

Now, why can't that be replicated in Ireland? Apartment living is seen as a dirty word in Ireland and it comes from the top down sadly.

hometruths

James Bond Junior wrote: »

I live in an apartment abroad. 2 bed with large balcony. Both bedrooms are bigger than my main bedrooms in my 3 bed in Ireland. Kitchen is twice the size. The living/dining area would easily take the entire floor plan of my Irish house. The purchase price for this apartment in this development is around €240k and it is in a prime location in the most sought after area of this city. I have a marina within 45 secs walk and a private beach within 5 mins. I can't see myself leaving this apartment until the day comes that we move home. Even if a small person came along, we wouldn't bother moving as it is perfect.

Now, why can't that be replicated in Ireland? Apartment living is seen as a dirty word in Ireland and it comes from the top down sadly.

As with so many other property related statistics we are outliers on this:



The EU average is 46.1% of people live in flats and 18.5% live in semi-d/terrace.

We are less than 10% in flats and over 50% in semi ds/terraces!

We need to build more high quality apartments. But as mentioned above we're in a catch 22 situation - developers won't build them because people say they don't want to buy them.

kippy

JimmyVik wrote: »

Plus in most other cities people will buy to suit their needs.
In Ireland everyone wants a 3 bed in the city with a garden as their first house.
Even single buyers.

Not everyone.
And it's not exactly a stupid idea when the risks associated with buying an appartment in this country are massive.
If we had a stable housing market perhaps people would buy to suit their needs at that time of their lives but needs change as do property prices so the risk is lessened buy buying that could suit you far longer than an apartment.

hometruths

kippy wrote: »

Not everyone.
And it's not exactly a stupid idea when the risks associated with buying an appartment in this country are massive.
If we had a stable housing market perhaps people would buy to suit their needs at that time of their lives but needs change as do property prices so the risk is lessened buy buying that could suit you far longer than an apartment.

Apart some of the dodgy construction issues of the past, what do you men by the risks of buying an apartment are massive?

Assuming you buy a well built apartment, what is the risk involved in buying one, and if your needs change, sell it and buy something more suitable?

kippy

schmittel wrote: »

Apart some of the dodgy construction issues of the past, what do you men by the risks of buying an apartment are massive?

Assuming you buy a well built apartment, what is the risk involved in buying one, and if your needs change, sell it and buy something more suitable?

Have you ever lived in an Irish apartment?
They tend not to be well built from a sound insulation perspective, have very little shared or open space and most importantly really fluctuate in value.

Not much point buying one to sell in years to come if you can't get back what you paid for it. Now that is a result of a dysfunctional market but nonetheless a reality.
There is a reason banks are tighter on lending towards an apartment purchase.

hometruths

kippy wrote: »

Have you ever lived in an Irish apartment?
They tend not to be well built from a sound insulation perspective, have very little shared or open space and most importantly really fluctuate in value.

Not much point buying one to sell in years to come if you can't get back what you paid for it. Now that is a result of a dysfunctional market but nonetheless a reality.
There is a reason banks are tighter on lending towards an apartment purchase.

Therein lies the problem. The purchasing decisions. People are wary of apartments fluctuating in value which leads to outsized demand for 3 bed semis which leads to apartments fluctuating in value.

We have everything back to front. And we cannot expect to fix our dysfunctional market with the same thinking. We cannot wail why can we not have a functioning property market like other countries and continue to expect that over half the population should live in semi ds.

Which is the point of the article in the OP. The whole crisis is of actually of our own making, our collective actions in the market, and we perpetuate these myths which help nobody.

To solve the problems we need to start thinking differently about the entire market.

JimmyVik

kippy wrote: »

Have you ever lived in an Irish apartment?
They tend not to be well built from a sound insulation perspective, have very little shared or open space and most importantly really fluctuate in value.

Not much point buying one to sell in years to come if you can't get back what you paid for it. Now that is a result of a dysfunctional market but nonetheless a reality.
There is a reason banks are tighter on lending towards an apartment purchase.

Ive lived in apartments in many countries.
tbh sound insulation is the same in them all.
In some countries you have some communal facilities, such as pools, gyms or party rooms you can use, but usually these cost a bit more than those without.
Ireland is just now starting to get these facilities in apartment block, and indeed they are more expensive.
If people changed their attitude to apartment living in Ireland then you would always have buyers when you want to sell. The overall problem is that everyone is holding out for the 3 bed with a garden. Thats why the price of houses are rocketing.

Deeec

kippy wrote: »

Have you ever lived in an Irish apartment?
They tend not to be well built from a sound insulation perspective, have very little shared or open space and most importantly really fluctuate in value.

Not much point buying one to sell in years to come if you can't get back what you paid for it. Now that is a result of a dysfunctional market but nonetheless a reality.
There is a reason banks are tighter on lending towards an apartment purchase.

Just to add to this most apartments are occupied by tenants rather than owner occupied which sometimes leads to issues - parties, anti social behaviour etc.
It is often hard to sell apartments for these reasons as they are not attractive for someone who wants to establish a proper home.

Ace2007

Deeec wrote: »

Just to add to this most apartments are occupied by tenants rather than owner occupied which sometimes leads to issues - parties, anti social behaviour etc.
It is often hard to sell apartments for these reasons as they are not attractive for someone who wants to establish a proper home.

So basically the masses want apartments built that won't be let to students, or social housing tenants.

Someone mentioned Ballymun, the flats in theory were ok, it's just they took all those in requirement of social housing and lumped them all together - and anytime there was a recession, they were the first to lose job and last to prosper and then Drugs took hold. The same could happen anywhere in the country if the wrong set of circumstances occurred regardless of how they are built.

sprucemoose

Ace2007 wrote: »

Someone mentioned Ballymun, the flats in theory were ok, it's just they took all those in requirement of social housing and lumped them all together - and anytime there was a recession, they were the first to lose job and last to prosper and then Drugs took hold. The same could happen anywhere in the country if the wrong set of circumstances occurred regardless of how they are built.

you are correct in this, but this also combined with a lack of adequate facilities (outdoor space etc,) in the design meant the project was doomed to fail. i mentioned it more as an example of bad planning on the part of both the designer and the council, rather than any slight on the people or the area itself

blackbox

Deleted User wrote: »

The cost of getting these houses to the standard required for modern living would be prohibitive. Even if they got the houses for nothing!

What's so different about modern living compared to 40 or 50 years ago?

Definitely we need more sockets for our appliances, but should people be denied a house because they will have to wear 2 jumpers in the winter?

It's great to have A rated homes where you can walk around in your t-shirt all winter, but this is a Mercedes S-class luxury.

Older standard houses should be available and let the rental or purchase price reflect that, both for council and private houses.

This would realistically bring lots of older houses and over-shop dwellings back on the market.

And why were bed-sits banned? Sure, they weren't ideal, but they met the basic needs of lots of low paid people and students. Their abolition put huge pressure on prices.

Deeec

Ace2007 wrote: »

So basically the masses want apartments built that won't be let to students, or social housing tenants.

Someone mentioned Ballymun, the flats in theory were ok, it's just they took all those in requirement of social housing and lumped them all together - and anytime there was a recession, they were the first to lose job and last to prosper and then Drugs took hold. The same could happen anywhere in the country if the wrong set of circumstances occurred regardless of how they are built.

Well yeah a family doesnt want to live in an apartment next door or above a group of partying students or drug addicts.

I think the biggest problem with Ballymun is the council/government ignored the problems and done nothing to improve/police the situation.

sprucemoose

blackbox wrote: »

It's great to have A rated homes where you can walk around in your t-shirt all winter, but this is a Mercedes S-class luxury.

Older standard houses should be available and let the rental or purchase price reflect that, both for council and private houses.

i see where youre coming from, but the requirement are there for the benefit of the customer. unfortunately we have a system currently which allows a premium to be charge for basic facilities

JimmyVik

Ace2007 wrote: »

So basically the masses want apartments built that won't be let to students, or social housing tenants.

Someone mentioned Ballymun, the flats in theory were ok, it's just they took all those in requirement of social housing and lumped them all together - and anytime there was a recession, they were the first to lose job and last to prosper and then Drugs took hold. The same could happen anywhere in the country if the wrong set of circumstances occurred regardless of how they are built.

I actually know a guy who bought an expensive apartment in a lovely building to live in after moving out of his house. Within a year he sold it because of anti-social behavior from renters either side of them. He had spoken to their landlords and their landlords said they werent allowed to evict them, as much as they wanted to.


So he sold the apartment and moved to another house.
The problem in Ireland is that scumbags dont get dealt with properly, making like miserable for ordinary citizens forced to live near them.

Deeec

sprucemoose wrote: »

i see where youre coming from, but the requirement are there for the benefit of the customer. unfortunately we have a system currently which allows a premium to be charge for basic facilities

The standards drive up costs though. Builders will agree that standards are a good thing but some of them are absolutely ridiculous and achieve very little but adding expense and labour to a build.

Good older properties are empty and decaying because owners dont have the funds to carry out the work to meet the standards. These properties could be available to the rental market.

MarcusP12

ec18 wrote: »

Not really if you're a couple with two incomes one say is a senior accountant and the other is that high level it person a household income of 150K - 200K is possibly on the lower side even. Take the middle of 175k income

175 * 3.5 = 612,000

Add in a deposit of say 200K which wouldn't be terribly un reasonable to have saved on those salaries over a number of years. And you're in the neighbourhood of 1 million. Maybe they get an exception to 4.5x salary and you're at

175 * 4.5 = 787,000 + 200,000 = 987,000

so the million euro house isn't that far out of reach that you'd need a VP on 500k...

Don't forget the equity in the gaff they just sold....that could run into 100s of ks if you were smart/lucky....

JimmyVik

JimmyVik wrote: »

...............
The problem in Ireland is that scumbags dont get dealt with properly, making like miserable for ordinary citizens forced to live near them.

Yup, anti-social behaviour is a problem for government that should be solved with more expensive housing for wasters, pandering to their "needs" and facilitating them essentially............ any government who decided to deal with them properly would be slaughtered by the yellow vest brigade etc.

sprucemoose

Deeec wrote: »

The standards drive up costs though. Builders will agree that standards are a good thing but some of them are absolutely ridiculous and achieve very little but adding expense and labour to a build.

very few of the regs are ridiculous, some planning requirements are but the regs are largely good

Deeec wrote: »

Good older properties are empty and decaying because owners dont have the funds to carry out the work to meet the standards. These properties could be available to the rental market.

if theyre as 'good' as you put it then there should be no problems

blackbox

blackbox wrote: »

....................

Older standard houses should be available and let the rental or purchase price reflect that, both for council and private houses....................

As far as I know you can buy or rent a property with a BER rating of A-G
It's the new builds have to be A or whatever.

Deeec

Deeec wrote: »

Just to add to this most apartments are occupied by tenants rather than owner occupied which sometimes leads to issues - parties, anti social behaviour etc.
It is often hard to sell apartments for these reasons as they are not attractive for someone who wants to establish a proper home.

This is why Irish people don't buy apartments, because they have some kind of snobby weird attitude that apartments are full of useless partying layabouts.

timmyntc

bubblypop wrote: »

This is why Irish people don't buy apartments, because they have some kind of snobby weird attitude that apartments are full of useless partying layabouts.

Irish people dont buy apartments because soundproofing is awful to non-existent - because most apartments are rented not owner-occupied, increasing the chances you live beside renters and increasing the chances of living beside anti-social tenants.

Not to mention the actual size of Irish apartments, which are pitifully small for the most part.

Deeec

bubblypop wrote: »

This is why Irish people don't buy apartments, because they have some kind of snobby weird attitude that apartments are full of useless partying layabouts.

Well lets face a lot of apartment blocks are full of anti social behaviour. Its not snobby to not want to live beside people like this.

Deeec

Deeec wrote: »

Well lets face a lot of apartment blocks are full of anti social behaviour. Its not snobby to not want to live beside people like this.

Are they?
I can honestly say I haven't noticed anymore anti social behaviour in apartment blocks then housing estates.

This is what's wrong!

hot buttered scones

[Deleted User] wrote: »

He is qualified to comment, which doesn't mean that he is correct. I am still waiting for proof of the extraordinary claim that 0.3% of transactions are first time buyers, or that this is healthy, if true. Also there clearly is a generation rent.

As for the vacancies in Dublin. Pinch of salt with that one. Is it places where people never answered the census? I think we all know that that is pretty dubious.

I don't know about Dublin, but there was a lot of vacant properties in my area in Cork during the last census, and the majority of them where council properties. As for people not answering the census - it turns out that not completing the census makes planning more difficult, just like we were told. All you have to do is walk around any town or city in this country and see the amount of boarded up and derelict properties. Cork City centre has a big problem with dereliction and a lot seems to be as a result of the property owners buying up properties and just leaving them rot. Weak enforcement by the council just excerbates this. I'm not denying there is a housing problem, not am I saying restoring all the vacant properties is the answer. However, I would like to see a bit more action of the empty houses, especially the council ones. Near me, planning has gone in for 28 social housing units. Good news. But there is at least 7 or 8 boarded up units that can be seen from the site. Surely if there is s need for housing in the area, then sorting out the vacant houses first should be prioritised?
The one thing that rings true from that article is the almost perpetual state of victimhood we are supposed to be in. It has been the constant refrain since the economic crisis. The message that comes across is that there is no point in trying, the system is stacked against you so no point in trying until we get that lot out and get us lot in.
I'm not denying there is a problem. I'm not a youngster, so I may be accused of having an "I'm alright Jack" attitude. I have 2 young adult children at college age and I recognise that it is going to be so much harder for them than it was for me, and it wasn't that easy for me. I don't know what the answers are to be honest. Maybe cities and large towns should have a higher proportion of social housing and it should be easier to qualify for one - raise the wage limits. If done properly then surely social housing estates would have a more mixed population (socio-economically speaking). Set aside units in the bigger cities for essential workers (nurses, teachers, paramedics, Gardai etc) and cheap units for service industry workers (shops, restaurants etc) maybe? Cities (Dublin in particular due to its size) need these people to run the flippin place. I don't know. I'm just worried about the kids really, but I'm not hopeless.

Deeec

bubblypop wrote: »

Are they?
I can honestly say I haven't noticed anymore anti social behaviour in apartment blocks then housing estates.

This is what's wrong!

I think you have been lucky. I have friends who bought expensive apartments who have had nightmare experiences due to antisocial behaviour. Yes it can also happen in estates - but it is less likely.