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The great myths of housing

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    #32
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    I'm assuming the writer is from one of the "I'm alright Jack" set who don't have to worry about the roof over their heads? Or put up with a house share as a mature adult or consider the merits of living in a fücking converted builders van?


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    #33
    tommybrees
    Registered Users Posts: 389 ✭✭tommybrees


    Just reading all the comments is so depressing.
    Housing is absolutely F##ked here isn't it.


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    #34
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,524 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    It depends very much on your circumstances and where you want to live/work.
    If you want to live in or near a big centre of work it's gonna cost you a lot more than living in the periphery.


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    #35
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 28,833 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Do the 'vacant property' figures also includes cases where someone has a family home say in the country and something like a 'pied de terre' apartment in Dublin for occasional work or personal reasons?
    Or vice versa, holiday homes in the country and principal residence in Dublin?

    In which case, they aren't vacant... under utilised but not vacant really.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #36
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,845 ✭✭✭hometruths


    the_syco wrote: »
    How many are near Dublin, or nearby a town that has non-retail jobs? By non-retail, I mean not the local shop.
    And the ones that are in Dublin, how many are in nice places that you'd want to live?
    When not the above two, how many are affordable?
    And finally, how many are held by the HSE to fund the owners end of life facilities?

    Vacancy rates for Dublin city:

    535895.JPG

    Thanks to Timing Belt


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    #37
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,845 ✭✭✭hometruths


    whisky_galore wrote: »
    I'm assuming the writer is from one of the "I'm alright Jack" set who don't have to worry about the roof over their heads? Or put up with a house share as a mature adult or consider the merits of living in a fücking converted builders van?

    He's a former chair of the Housing Agency and a lecturer in planning at TUD. According to his firm's website:
    Conor Skehan, BSc, MLArch, our Director, has an unparalleled range of international and Irish experience. With a background in architecture and landscape Architecture, he is a recognised authority on strategic planning, landscape management, visual impact assessment and Environmental Impact Assessment. He has written a number of seminal guidelines in these areas and maintained a position as a leading academic in planning and impact assessment for over twenty years. He is also an advisor to the UN on SEA.

    He's probably alright Jack, but he's also undoubtedly qualified to comment.


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    #38
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    schmittel wrote: »
    He's a former chair of the Housing Agency and a lecturer in planning at TUD. According to his firm's website:

    He's probably alright Jack, but he's also undoubtedly qualified to comment.

    You would think, albeit detached from reality.


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    #39
    Hubertj
    Registered Users Posts: 2,000 ✭✭✭Hubertj


    schmittel wrote: »
    He's a former chair of the Housing Agency and a lecturer in planning at TUD. According to his firm's website:



    He's probably alright Jack, but he's also undoubtedly qualified to comment.

    I think he would be 1 of the more qualified people to comment on the problems and possible solutions. He’s not just an academic or politician ( we all know who they are)basing their housing policy on politician ideology. He has real world experience of the sh*t show that is the Irish property market.


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    #40
    Ace2007
    Registered Users Posts: 19,705 ✭✭✭✭Ace2007


    notAMember wrote: »
    I don’t know about that…

    Fair deal is one cause of these, 20k homes that cannot be rented out, sometimes for decades, because the govt has a stake in them in return for nursing home care. Most of those are urban.

    That's not entirely true, there is nothing stopping the houses in questions being rented out per se. The issue in many cases is that

    1. The houses in questions are out dated and would cost money to refurbish, and no one is willing/can spend the money.

    2. The house will then be seen as a rental home and not a PPR, and so that full value of the house will be used in calculating the cost of the nursing home each year until the individual dies. If the individual in the nursing home has no cash assets, and the house is worth 400k for instance, they may only get 1k in rental as it's outdated, but instead of having no liability in the house (if past the 3 years cap), they would then have to come up with 30k a year, which they won't be able to. All in all it makes no sense for the owner who is in a nursing home to rent out there home as unless the house is in good condition and can attract market rent.

    3. If the house is sold, again the full amount is liable for nursing home care every year.

    So it has nothing to do with the government having a stake in them at all, it's policies relating to the fair deal that makes it a non runner in the majority of cases.


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    #41
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 28,833 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Ace2007 wrote: »
    So it has nothing to do with the government having a stake in them at all, it's policies relating to the fair deal that makes it a non runner in the majority of cases.

    Plus the house will be sold, in the forseeable future, and who wants to be dealing with a possibly difficult tenant and other such hassles for very little reward in rent.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #42
    Jinglejangle69
    Registered Users Posts: 7,311 ✭✭✭Jinglejangle69


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Avocado eating millennials am I right?

    Spot on squire.


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    #43
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,845 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Jinglejangle69 wrote: »
    Spot on squire.

    In fairness he's not banging the avocado toast drum.

    He makes the point that if you can't afford your preferred location you'll have to cut your cloth to measure, but nowhere does he is he suggesting that affordability is driven by a propensity to fritter away cash.

    As far as modern trends and tastes go, he points out the difference between the car manufacturing industry and housing.

    Despite ever increased standards of safety and customer expectation, the car industry have improved value for money increasing efficiencies and technologies

    Why hasn't the housing industry done the same?


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    #44
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,524 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    schmittel wrote: »
    In fairness he's not banging the avocado toast drum.

    He makes the point that if you can't afford your preferred location you'll have to cut your cloth to measure, but nowhere does he is he suggesting that affordability is driven by a propensity to fritter away cash.

    As far as modern trends and tastes go, he points out the difference between the car manufacturing industry and housing.

    Despite ever increased standards of safety and customer expectation, the car industry have improved value for money increasing efficiencies and technologies

    Why hasn't the housing industry done the same?
    There is no 'housing industry' - you simply cannot compare both.


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    #45
    notAMember
    Registered Users Posts: 1,657 ✭✭✭notAMember


    Ace2007 wrote: »
    That's not entirely true, there is nothing stopping the houses in questions being rented out per se. The issue in many cases is that

    1. The houses in questions are out dated and would cost money to refurbish, and no one is willing/can spend the money.

    2. The house will then be seen as a rental home and not a PPR, and so that full value of the house will be used in calculating the cost of the nursing home each year until the individual dies. If the individual in the nursing home has no cash assets, and the house is worth 400k for instance, they may only get 1k in rental as it's outdated, but instead of having no liability in the house (if past the 3 years cap), they would then have to come up with 30k a year, which they won't be able to. All in all it makes no sense for the owner who is in a nursing home to rent out there home as unless the house is in good condition and can attract market rent.

    3. If the house is sold, again the full amount is liable for nursing home care every year.

    So it has nothing to do with the government having a stake in them at all, it's policies relating to the fair deal that makes it a non runner in the majority of cases.

    Also, the gross rental income is seen as income for the elderly person, not including any costs

    Here's an article on it.
    https://denisnaughten.ie/2019/09/15/families-penalised-for-renting-out-fair-deal-homes-naughten/

    It's incentivised dereliction and vacancy during a property shortage.

    Silly policies like this have us tied up in knots.


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    #46
    tommyombomb
    Registered Users Posts: 261 ✭✭tommyombomb


    schmittel wrote: »
    Vacancy rates for Dublin city:

    535895.JPG

    Thanks to Timing Belt

    How do they define vacancy rate. I am convinced that a high percentage of those are rented in the black market


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    #47
    Topgear on Dave
    Registered Users Posts: 4,545 ✭✭✭Topgear on Dave


    schmittel wrote: »

    Despite ever increased standards of safety and customer expectation, the car industry have improved value for money increasing efficiencies and technologies

    Why hasn't the housing industry done the same?

    Can you imagine if every local politician gets involved in the automotive industry the way they are involved in development. :pac:


    "Yes I understand the transport crisis but this company should not produce vans because they are entirely unsuitable for family motoring"

    "There is a transport crisis that we all recognise but no one should be building articulated trucks. Look at the size of them. They are too expensive, too big for local roads, ruin the views and you will never ever fill them."

    "This company wants to provide a large amount of rental cars in my local area, however right now most cars in the area are privately owned. We do not believe that these rental cars will be suitable for the local community"

    "You should not be allowed park your brand new Tesla in our local area since it will spoil the historic views from my three wheeled Reliant Robin"

    "I feel that 2 door and 1 litre cars should be banned. We need to be raising standards and ordinary people should allways have a 4 door car and at least a 2.5 litre engine."


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    #48
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,451 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    Blaming it all on the government and government policy makes me laugh although they are a part of the issue, because of being in a position for a few days to listen every day to all the talking heads, commentators, experts.

    So going by the 'experts' we need higher density and high rises, then the next expert says no we don't we need mixed-use medium density medium-rise, the next expert we need family apartments, the next expert we need duplex and townhouses, not every single person want to live in an apartment, the next expert its land tax, land hoarding tax we need, the next expert its property developers and builders are satan and Beelzebub one of the 7 princes of hell combined, the next expert Nama bla bla.


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    #49
    handlemaster
    Registered Users Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    Ubbquittious wrote: »
    Dereliction is a big problem


    Every village near me has houses that are boarded up and unused, then you have holiday houses that some fella uses a couple of weeks in August



    I reckon if every empty house and every ruin was done up there would be no housing problem anymore. No need to build any new ghost estates


    This will probably be the last time there's a housing crisis. The world population is set to start falling shortly so that will eventually stem the flow of immigrants. By 2050 there will probably absolutely loads of empty houses, perhaps whole empty streets in the cities

    People who suggest renovating derelict property as a solution have never renovated a property. It like a can of worms the cost keeps going up one issue after another. There could be some that could be renovated in areas where people want to live but generally you will find those areas have very few such vacant properties. In short there are no properties where people want to live and work.


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    #50
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,071 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    schmittel wrote:
    A provocative article in todays Indo by Conor Skehan -

    He sounds astonishly ignorant alright, I suspect there's no mention of the fact, we ve been experiencing rapid property price inflation, low wage inflation and increasing precariousness of working conditions, for the last couple of decades?


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    #51
    ec18
    Registered Users Posts: 2,708 ✭✭✭ec18


    It's an interesting discussion, I have some sympathy for current house prices and the carry on with REIT's buying up housing estates shouldn't be happening. However a lot of the problems or at least what I see are trying to buy in really desirable areas (or any part inside the M50). It's never been the case that people could buy where they want and to paraphrase another poster anyone buying a house has had to compromise on location/size etc.

    Covid has caused a supply shortage a sharp increase in sale agreed prices and it'll be interesting to see if the actual sale price trend on PPR match up. I do tend to agree with the general theme of the article that focusing on new builds isn't enough and that buyers need to be a but realistic about what dream vs reality. Like if you're a deliveroo driver or in the neighbourhood of the minimum wage you aren't going to be able to afford to buy in Ranelagh or Rathfarnham.

    A refurbishment grant for derelict properties and easing some of the planning requirements for them with local authorities would help. We do need a review of a lot of the 'initiatives' brought in like the fast track planning and tax breaks on property funds. People do need to have an honest conversation with themselves as well around their expectations vs their reality.


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    #52
    Blowfish
    Registered Users Posts: 5,112 ✭✭✭Blowfish


    ec18 wrote: »
    It's an interesting discussion, I have some sympathy for current house prices and the carry on with REIT's buying up housing estates shouldn't be happening. However a lot of the problems or at least what I see are trying to buy in really desirable areas (or any part inside the M50). It's never been the case that people could buy where they want and to paraphrase another poster anyone buying a house has had to compromise on location/size etc.
    It's not just in the M50 though, in the entire commuter belt prices are being bidded up to silly levels. About a week ago I enquired about 2 properties, one in Newbridge, one about 3km outside of Newbridge, both listed at around the €450,000 mark.

    Bidding on the first was at €478,000 and on the second it was €508,000.


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    #53
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,451 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    Another one from the talking heads on property in the media, a 3 bed is only a starter home?


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    #54
    Cyrus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,942 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    increasing precariousness of working conditions, for the last couple of decades?

    have they reopened the ship yards and the coal mines :eek:


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    #55
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    schmittel wrote: »
    He's probably alright Jack, but he's also undoubtedly qualified to comment.

    He is qualified to comment, which doesn't mean that he is correct. I am still waiting for proof of the extraordinary claim that 0.3% of transactions are first time buyers, or that this is healthy, if true. Also there clearly is a generation rent.

    As for the vacancies in Dublin. Pinch of salt with that one. Is it places where people never answered the census? I think we all know that that is pretty dubious.


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    #56
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    As for this no doubt mythical vacancy rate, if it is true then what solution did the journalist offer? Tax on vacancies? Property tax? what?


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    #57
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    ec18 wrote: »
    Covid has caused a supply shortage a sharp increase in sale agreed prices and it'll be interesting to see if the actual sale price trend on PPR match up. I do tend to agree with the general theme of the article that focusing on new builds isn't enough and that buyers need to be a but realistic about what dream vs reality. Like if you're a deliveroo driver or in the neighbourhood of the minimum wage you aren't going to be able to afford to buy in Ranelagh or Rathfarnham.

    A refurbishment grant for derelict properties and easing some of the planning requirements for them with local authorities would help. We do need a review of a lot of the 'initiatives' brought in like the fast track planning and tax breaks on property funds. People do need to have an honest conversation with themselves as well around their expectations vs their reality.

    Nobody expects a house in Ranelagh or Rathfarnham, just that the median house prices in the city matches, as it used to, median earnings.


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    #58
    ec18
    Registered Users Posts: 2,708 ✭✭✭ec18


    Blowfish wrote: »
    It's not just in the M50 though, in the entire commuter belt prices are being bidded up to silly levels. About a week ago I enquired about 2 properties, one in Newbridge, one about 3km outside of Newbridge, both listed at around the €450,000 mark.

    Bidding on the first was at €478,000 and on the second it was €508,000.

    I see what you mean, but those prices mightn't be outrageous for the properties in question? I.e if it's a nice detached house in a decent area in newbridge near to the train station or the one outside has a good plot size etc.
    mariaalice wrote: »
    Another one from the talking head on property in the media, a 3 bed is only a starter home?

    With the general plot size and design of houses presently they are for a cohort of people who might buy the 3 bed semi as a couple. Then when one, two, three kids come along the lack of living space and bedroom space. The garden is too small to extend without losing all outside space and if it's a town house there isn't much can be done to original house either.

    It's probably why older houses were more desirable before HTB came in.


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    #59
    ec18
    Registered Users Posts: 2,708 ✭✭✭ec18


    fvp4 wrote: »
    Nobody expects a house in Ranelagh or Rathfarnham, just that the median house prices in the city matches, as it used to, median earnings.

    Do you have a link to when that was last true?


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    #60
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,451 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    ec18 wrote: »
    I see what you mean, but those prices mightn't be outrageous for the properties in question? I.e if it's a nice detached house in a decent area in newbridge near to the train station or the one outside has a good plot size etc.



    With the general plot size and design of houses presently they are for a cohort of people who might buy the 3 bed semi as a couple. Then when one, two, three kids come along the lack of living space and bedroom space. The garden is too small to extend without losing all outside space and if it's a town house there isn't much can be done to original house either.

    It's probably why older houses were more desirable before HTB came in.

    I know this is a cranky old person rant, but how on earth did people raise 6 children in a 3 bed house with no issues.

    A 3-bed semi is more than adequate for a family with two children.


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    #61
    Ace2007
    Registered Users Posts: 19,705 ✭✭✭✭Ace2007


    fvp4 wrote: »
    Nobody expects a house in Ranelagh or Rathfarnham, just that the median house prices in the city matches, as it used to, median earnings.

    But there posters on here saying that they want to live in x area because they grew up there, or they have friends there etc. This is one big part of the problem, to many people want to live in areas that they cannot afford.

    You say that houses prices in the city should match median earnings - does this include the likes of Howth or Dalkey? If not, Why should it be any different there than Ranelagh or Rathfarnham?


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