Vaccine Megathread No 2 - Read OP before posting

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117805314#Comment_117805314

T-cells do not produce antibodies - B-cells do.

Also the adaptive immune system has 2 main responses - Th1 and Th2. Th2 is the antibody mediated response, which is induced by vaccination. When we measure antibody titers we are examining Th2 response. But antibody levels are not the only measure of immunity.

The reason people with more severe infection produce more antibodies - is 1) due to length of infection, and 2) because the Th1 response is initially not strong enough in said individual. Th1 (inflammatory response mechanism) is stronger in younger groups, is believed to lead to mild/no symptoms from the disease due to a fast strong immune response. So in these individuals with an initially strong Th1 response to the virus, you would expect to not see as large a Th2 (antibody) level as someone suffering from a prolonged infection.

What does all this mean? Well, it means that you cannot judge immunity based on serum antibody levels alone. The only way to judge effectively is studies to examine infection and severe disease rates in vaccinated vs infected-recovered patients (such as that prelim study I linked earlier). That preliminary data suggests natural immunity is stronger versus reinfection than vaccine induced immunity - how it fares in the long run will depend on further study.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117805456#Comment_117805456

You are correct on the B-Cells creating the antibodies. Your conclusion essentially marks the antibody count reports as useless and waiting on real world data, however, the reason the antibody counts are being studied so much is that it is a good indicator of what the real world results will be. It will be interesting to see what the final outcome of the study will be and what the vaccine then infection long term protection looks like.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117805525#Comment_117805525

Because Th1 and Th2 responses are not equal.

Th1 and Th2 responses are antagonistic - the more of one, the less of the other. So a vaccine that induces strong Th2 response will inhibit Th1 response to the same virion.

Th1 and Th2 responses are antagonistic, and the cytokines produced by a Th2-type response will prevent the initiation of a Th1-type response. Immunization with a vaccine that establishes a Th2-type response will prevent the development of a Th1-type response, which may even exacerbate the disease following infection.

Here's a nice summary of how it works https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1539119/

Now the idea that it may exacerbate the disease following infection is not the case for SARS-CoV-2, which induces a response of both Th1 and Th2 but it is not clear to what degree - relative to an actual infection. It could well induce strong Th1 response than a natural infection either - point is, we cannot judge efficacy on antibody levels alone.

Edit: I will say that yes, antibody levels can be a general prediction of efficacy - but unless you know the ratio of Th1/Th2 response generated in a typical immune response, you cant really compare vaccine vs innate antibodies in that way.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117805624#Comment_117805624

Yep, an indicator.

The question is going to be what the immunity looks like from vaccine then later exposure to SARS-COV2 as it becomes endemic, it's what most rational people will encounter.

JP Liz V1

BBC presenter Lisa Shaw, 44, died due to incredibly rare blood clot complications caused by AstraZeneca covid vaccine three weeks after she had first jab, coroner rules

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117806422#Comment_117806422

If people were so inclined they could post thousands of individual tragedies in younger people who died from the virus, to make a point. Most people aren’t c*nts though

Looking at data in the general sense

https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2021/0826/1242997-coronavirus-maternity/

By all means it makes sense to be vaccine hesitant. No risk to it at all

blackcard

It seems to me that we are at a finely balanced point in this epidemic. With the current rate of restrictions, it looks like the case numbers have more or less plateaued with maybe hospitalizations and ICU to stabilize in a couple of weeks. The R0 number seems to be around 1. It looks like the total percentage vaccinated will reach a maximum of ~ 78% in a months time or so from its current level of 67% which should cause a reduction in the R0 number. This may be offset by the slight relaxation of restrictions and the return of schools

What are the chances of a vaccine being made that has a higher efficacy against the Delta Variant? i think that this is going to be required to end this epidemic

Azatadine

Good news on Janssen

https://twitter.com/muirtheimhne/status/1430985637252018182?s=09

blackcard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117808765#Comment_117808765

Have we an order for any Jannsen?

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117795336#Comment_117795336

It isn't difficult in the slightest to find people who regret getting the vaccine.

Read around this forum. Vaccine Side Effects thread in particular, and some other vaccine threads. Reddit also.

Their opinions aren't being splashed across newspapers for some reason.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117821361#Comment_117821361

Have we had a single fatality in Ireland attributed to a vaccine? It's definitely been established that dozens of unvaccinated people have died in the last few months.

robinbird

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117821461#Comment_117821461

Causation often not provable but when healthy young people die from known possible side effects of a vaccine within a few days of taking it the medias silence should be questioned.

Lumen

"Just asking questions" is a boilerplate tactic of antivaxxers, the purpose of which is to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt, recruiting people to their world view. They're not looking for answers.

It's pathetic.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117821655#Comment_117821655

If you're referring to me I'm not "just asking questions".

I intend to look into correlative increases in adult sudden death syndrome, other unusual deaths etc.

If I come up with any discrepancies you will be free to pour scorn, doubt and skepticism all over them so chillax.

I'm not an anti-vaxxer, please take all the vaccines you want. I'm not looking to discourage you or anyone.

seamus

@growleaves wrote:

I intend to look into correlative increases in adult sudden death syndrome, other unusual deaths etc.

You'll be aware then that you'll be waiting at least a year from now to have access to annual statistics in relation to that. Not least because coroners take time to cause-of-death rulings, but that the CSO takes time to publish death statistics.

You might be able to initially do some comparisons by Nov/Dec when the CSO publish the statistics for Q2 2021, but until then there is nothing to look at.

Any attempt at this point to claim correlations between vaccine uptake and sudden deaths is complete nonsense, because you have no data on which to do it.

growleaves

@seamus I've made no claims. I said I'm going to look to see if there are correlations and then compare with other years.

Yes I was aware I'll have to wait for mortality statistics. I've seen it mentioned on these threads a few times.

There's nothing to get defensive about. Take off your activist hat for a second. I want to look into it. I'm not prejudging anything and you shouldn't either.

antimatterx

When should be getting your second dose of the vaccine? My first one is 3 weeks this Friday and I've heard nothing.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117821655#Comment_117821655

"JAQing off" - one of the most basic tactics, but we see basically all of them on this thread and others.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Just_asking_questions

Irish Aris

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117822305#Comment_117822305

Not sure which vaccine you get, in my case (pfizer) the second appointment was sent 25 days after the first and it was exactly 28 days after teh first.

Mind you, that was back in June.

antimatterx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117822375#Comment_117822375

It was Pfizer I got. Good to know it was 28 days, I thought it was 21 days.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117822333#Comment_117822333

Again, I hope this isn't a reference to me.

1. I'm not attempting "to shift the burden of proof to one's opponents".

2. Pro-vaccination posters are not my "opponents".

3. Looking for statistical correlations in data that might lead to a line of inquiry questioning vaccine safety is not a political act. What matters is the truth of a matter, not what 'harms' your 'position'.

4. From your link: 'It should be noted that accusing one's opponent of "just asking questions" is a common derailment tactic and a way of poisoning the well. Asking questions in and of itself is not invalid.'

Lumen

@growleaves wrote:

I hope this isn't a reference to me.

Of course not. I'd have quoted you if I was directing it at you.

@growleaves also wrote:

It should be noted that accusing one's opponent of "just asking questions" is a common derailment tactic and a way of poisoning the well. Asking questions in and of itself is not invalid.

Since this is the vaccine thread, have you had a covid vaccination yet? If so, why? If not, why not?

I'm just asking questions.

growleaves

@Lumen 'Of course not. I'd have quoted you if I was directing it at you.'

Grand.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117821655#Comment_117821655

So is just rubbishing other peoples valid opinions! It's the classic 'if you're not with us, then you're agin us' argument.

Bit of healthy scepticism is no harm at all.

questionmark?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117822426#Comment_117822426

IIRC its 17-42 days range for a valid second jab of Pfizer. Although it's been sometime since we were at the upper range of that period.

VG31

Rules like this are going to result in healthy Western people getting boosters while people in the third world haven't even received one dose.

I have also fully supported vaccinations but expecting non-vulnerable people to get a booster every 9 months is a complete **** joke TBH.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/suzannerowankelleher/2021/08/18/covid-booster-countries-vaccine-expiry-travel/?sh=e7eb58d3dd24

is_that_so

I see we are now at 92% with 88% fully vaccinated. Phenomenal numbers.

Skygord

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117824449#Comment_117824449

Our 18-24 year olds are at 78.1% 1st dose - which is lower than 'vaccine hesitant' France at 81.7%.

Cork2021

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117824515#Comment_117824515

dont worry we’ll bypass that! Our vaccine programme is still administering 20k plus daily. Roll on the 22nd of October! Vaccines work, anti vax are c u nxt Tuesdays and we’ll have our fun once again!!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117824515#Comment_117824515

Happen to look at the other age groups?