Not Guilty by reason of Insanity READ OP FIRST

Curse These Metal Hands

seenitall wrote: »

Some people in this thread must have forgotten how Alan Howe was eulogised as the pillar of his community at the funeral for himself and the 4 people he killed. Feminine-primary social order, ha.

That was distasteful for sure. The media, however, made up for with headlines such as "Monster Alan Hawe was cross dressing porn addict."

starkid

py2006 wrote: »

This.

Anybody who even began to question his mental state got absolutely LAMBASTED at the time. He was a monster, simple as. No sympathy or even questions of his mental state were tolerated.

Faugheens already jumped through hoops explaining the oh so obvious differences...:rolleyes:

py2006

bubblypop wrote: »

Why?
It's an anonymous board, there's no reason someone involved in this case isn't reading this thread or posting in it.
I've posted in threads were I have been involved in the topic being discussed.

Any member of the legal profession directly involved with a very serious and current case like this would stay well clear of social media commenting on it...even if its anonymous.

I would have serious reservations about them if they didn't.

MoonUnit75

seenitall wrote: »

Some people in this thread must have forgotten how Alan Howe was eulogised as the pillar of his community at the funeral for himself and the 4 people he killed. Feminine-primary social order, ha.

No he wasn't. There was the typical comments from locals about how normal both he and the family seemed and how they would never have suspected anything like this. Same happens after lots of heinous crimes 'he/she just seemed so ordinary, he/she raised money for the local wheelchair association' etc. etc.

Through feminist glasses though, some people could only see people praising this particular killer.

py2006

starkid wrote: »

Faugheens already jumped through hoops explaining the oh so obvious differences...:rolleyes:

We know the difference...gender

Darc19

It is so sad to see so many uninformed nasty people on here who have no understanding of mental health.

I really really really genuinely wish that no member of your family or anyone close to you ever suffers from mental illness as you will not give them the support or understanding that they require.

They also may not open to you and hide it from you, and then one day you may have to ask yourself why.


It is this type of utter stupid and nasty commentary around mental health that has so many people hiding their issues.


Just think about what you are saying - you might actually start to understand a little. But if you don't, that's a sad reflection on your own life

Purple is a Fruit

seenitall wrote: »

Some people in this thread must have forgotten how Alan Howe was eulogised as the pillar of his community at the funeral for himself and the 4 people he killed.

That was horrendous.

It doesn't change that severe mental illness may have caused him to carry out those monstrous acts though.

starkid

seenitall wrote: »

Some people in this thread must have forgotten how Alan Howe was eulogised as the pillar of his community at the funeral for himself and the 4 people he killed. Feminine-primary social order, ha.

that was in his note. wasn't hs body exhumed at the victims familys bequest.

also theres these -

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/02/reporting-alan-hawe-murder-suicide-family-sympathetic-say-womens-groups-wife-children

i completely agree he was utter scum. But theres no difference in this case imo. Both are vile acts. Mental health is an easy out.

starkid

Darc19 wrote: »

It is so sad to see so many uninformed nasty people on here who have no understanding of mental health.

I really really really genuinely wish that no member of your family or anyone close to you ever suffers from mental illness as you will not give them the support or understanding that they require.

They also may not open to you and hide it from you, and then one day you may have to ask yourself why.


It is this type of utter stupid and nasty commentary around mental health that has so many people hiding their issues.


Just think about what you are saying - you might actually start to understand a little. But if you don't, that's a sad reflection on your own life

wil you stop pontificating. Many of us on here have probably been touched by mental health and tragedy. I've been suicidal all my life and was in John of Gods. My daughter attempted suicide quite recently. One of my good friends committed suicide. Most of us respect mental health. But it can't become an excuse for utterly everything. We can accept she had these issues. But so does nearly every criminal or murderer in the World. Nearly every single serial killer has multiple mental health issues. How far do we go like? Some argue Hitler and his regime, and Stalin had many mental disorders. where does it end like? again is it because shes the symbolic figure of a mother that its accepted by some on here? I just don't get it and in many other jurisdications infanticide is treated as it should be.

seenitall

Curse These Metal Hands wrote: »

That was distasteful for sure. The media, however, made up for with headlines such as "Monster Alan Hawe was cross dressing porn addict."

That was only after the media sensed which way the wind of anger was blowing. At first, Clodagh wasn’t even being mentioned by name, such was the reverence and wonder about the pillar of the community. It needed a hashtag on social media, hernamewasclodagh.

Purple is a Fruit

Darc19 wrote: »

It is so sad to see so many uninformed nasty people on here who have no understanding of mental health.

I really really really genuinely wish that no member of your family or anyone close to you ever suffers from mental illness as you will not give them the support or understanding that they require.

They also may not open to you and hide it from you, and then one day you may have to ask yourself why.


It is this type of utter stupid and nasty commentary around mental health that has so many people hiding their issues.


Just think about what you are saying - you might actually start to understand a little. But if you don't, that's a sad reflection on your own life

I've had mental health issues since I was 18.

I can still see why it's hard for people to empathise with someone murdering their children though. Criticising such a person and being baffled at the verdict is hardly the same as having no empathy for people with mental health difficulties.

Faugheen

Curse These Metal Hands wrote: »

This all started because you couldn't offer reasons why Dr. Kennedy's assessment of Alan Hawe was wrong only "he was just a dick, end of. "

Sounds like you didn't read up enough as your were clearly unaware of Dr. Kennedy's assessment and now just have your back up. Mental illness can effect anyone regardless of gender, whether you believe it or not.

Actually I was very aware of Professor Kennedy's assessment (if you're going to act like you know it all, at least use his proper title) but I am also very aware that Prof Kennedy never met, spoke with or treated Alan Hawe which holds a lot of weight in an evidence standpoint. I'm not saying his assessment is wrong, in fact I would believe his assessment. However if Prof Kennedy or anyone under him at the CMH had treated him then it would be a completely different story.

However there is evidence (and I mean from people who knew him, not what the red-tops are saying) that he had control over his family to the point that Clodagh couldn't go anywhere without him and there were also circumstances that led to him about to have a fall from grace, which were all of his down doing. In my eyes, it's clear he killed them because he didn't want them finding out whatever it was he was hiding.

There was never any suggestion from anyone, anywhere that this case of Deirdre Morley that she was controlling or about to endure a fall from grace. The only thing that's said here is that she has had a long history of depression and, based on Andrew McGinley's statement, there was more to her mental health problems than he, she or the HSE even knew.

Taeholic

Ellie2008 wrote: »

I can’t link the article but I’m almost certain I have this right.

*Warning screenshots have distressing details

These are the parts I struggle with the most. Her own words of what was going through her mind about her eldest son. Horrifically tragic case, my heart goes out to their father and extended family. I'm at a loss for words other than that.

corner of hells

Feets wrote: »

Revenge. Simple.

Revenge for what ?

seenitall

MoonUnit75 wrote: »

No he wasn't. There was the typical comments from locals about how normal both he and the family seemed and how they would never have suspected anything like this. Same happens after lots of heinous crimes 'he/she just seemed so ordinary, he/she raised money for the local wheelchair association' etc. etc.

Through feminist glasses though, some people could only see people praising this particular killer.

Yes, he was. If that doesn’t sound like a glowing eulogy to you, maybe it’s because some people can only see people hating this particular killer through their misogynistic glasses.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/hawe-family-buried-following-funeral-service-in-cavan-1.2778784%3fmode=amp

Nermal

We cannot reliably tell sane from insane people.

It's not a scientific concept, it's a social one. The psychiatric evidence is mere opinion.

The verdict should be guilty, the sentence should be lifelong.

If some or all of it must be served in the CMH, fine - but all of it should be served.

Faugheen

Curse These Metal Hands wrote: »

An expert in law but cites The Sun and Irish Mirror as reliable sources. Anyway...

Where did I cite The Sun or Irish Mirror?

Curse These Metal Hands

Faugheen wrote: »

Actually I was very aware of Professor Kennedy's assessment (if you're going to act like you know it all, at least use his proper title) but I am also very aware that Prof Kennedy never met, spoke with or treated Alan Hawe which holds a lot of weight in an evidence standpoint. I'm not saying his assessment is wrong, in fact I would believe his assessment. However if Prof Kennedy or anyone under him at the CMH had treated him then it would be a completely different story.

Quite unusual to open with "Alan Hawe was a controlling dick" only to agree he was suffering from severe mental illness much later on in the thread. Not as empathetic as you claim to be perhaps. Could have avoided this entire exchange.

Purple is a Fruit

Feets wrote: »

Revenge. Simple.

Oh an intriguing cryptic post.

Wonder whether they'll reply to those who asked for clarification...

py2006

seenitall wrote: »

Yes, he was. If that doesn’t sound like a glowing eulogy to you, maybe it’s because some people can only see people hating this particular killer through their misogynistic glasses.

Oh leave the feminist nonsense out of this.

Ellie2008

At what point does something become a “mental health issue” that excuses taking a life. I think some cases are very clear cut eg kill your kids as revenge towards a cheating spouse Vs kill your kids because you believe them to be possessed. Many are not.

Are the expectations of mental health professionals realistic? They cannot read minds. If someone never expresses any desire to kill themselves or others how is that the fault of their doctor.

jk23

Taeholic wrote: »

These are the parts I struggle with the most. Her own words of what was going through her mind about her eldest son. Horrifically tragic case, my heart goes out to their father and extended family. I'm at a loss for words other than that.

Jesus that's upsetting to read, especially the part of pretending it was a game taping his mouth using his trust in his mother.

SEPT 23 1989

Darc19 wrote: »

It is so sad to see so many uninformed nasty people on here who have no understanding of mental health.

I really really really genuinely wish that no member of your family or anyone close to you ever suffers from mental illness as you will not give them the support or understanding that they require.

They also may not open to you and hide it from you, and then one day you may have to ask yourself why.


It is this type of utter stupid and nasty commentary around mental health that has so many people hiding their issues.


Just think about what you are saying - you might actually start to understand a little. But if you don't, that's a sad reflection on your own life

The nasty uniformed people who are angry about the murderer of the three innocent children

How dare they

MoonUnit75

Faugheen wrote: »

Actually I was very aware of Professor Kennedy's assessment (if you're going to act like you know it all, at least use his proper title) but I am also very aware that Prof Kennedy never met, spoke with or treated Alan Hawe which holds a lot of weight in an evidence standpoint. I'm not saying his assessment is wrong, in fact I would believe his assessment. However if Prof Kennedy or anyone under him at the CMH had treated him then it would be a completely different story.

However there is evidence (and I mean from people who knew him, not what the red-tops are saying) that he had control over his family to the point that Clodagh couldn't go anywhere without him and there were also circumstances that led to him about to have a fall from grace, which were all of his down doing. In my eyes, it's clear he killed them because he didn't want them finding out whatever it was he was hiding.

There was never any suggestion from anyone, anywhere that this case of Deirdre Morley that she was controlling or about to endure a fall from grace. The only thing that's said here is that she has had a long history of depression and, based on Andrew McGinley's statement, there was more to her mental health problems than he, she or the HSE even knew.

Isn't everything you've claimed about Alan Hawe hearsay, revisionism and gossip though? Before the funerals there was this:
"Clodagh Hawe’s sister Jacqueline posted a Facebook link to an article on Alan’s mental state and added: ‘A bit of truth at last!’ She also paid a heartfelt tribute to the entire Hawe family, adding: ‘RIP our wonderful Alan, Clodagh, Liam, Niall and Ryan we love you all our angels xxxxxxxx.’"

"‘Alan and Clodagh were a happy and loving couple and what happened was completely out of character."
https://evoke.ie/2016/09/02/news/irish-news/clodagh-hawes-sister-explains-pressure-on-father-of-three

starkid

starkid wrote: »

. But it can't become an excuse for utterly everything. We can accept she had these issues. But so does nearly every criminal or murderer in the World.

No they dont. Where are you getting that from?

py2006

Taeholic wrote: »

These are the parts I struggle with the most. Her own words of what was going through her mind about her eldest son. Horrifically tragic case, my heart goes out to their father and extended family. I'm at a loss for words other than that.

So her attempts to kill herself were to avoid a jail sentence and not out of guilt for multiple murders?

joe40

Purple is a Fruit wrote: »

I've had mental health issues since I was 18.

I can still see why it's hard for people to empathise with someone murdering their children though. Criticising such a person and being baffled at the verdict is hardly the same as having no empathy for people with mental health difficulties.

I can understand that up to a point but in this particular case the medical experts for both sides and both legal teams accepted the insanity case.
I can't believe those experts were hoodwinked or overly influenced by emotion as opposed to psychiatric medicine.
Even the husband can accept the verdict.
Each case is different, in this case there seems to be a clear medical consensus.
As a non medical person I can accept that.

Emotion, gender all kinds of things can come into wider debate but in that courthouse the only factors were medical and legal.
Comparisons with other cases is moot. No two are the same.

seenitall

py2006 wrote: »

Oh leave the feminist nonsense out of this.

I suppose it’s alright for the other poster to accuse anyone of being “feminist” in stating the facts of what happened at Alan Hawe’s funeral and in the immediate aftermath of the murders in the media, however when the word misogyny appears as a retort, we can’t have that nonsense, can we?

monkeybutter

Faugheen wrote: »

Where did I cite The Sun or Irish Mirror?

Where are you getting you stories from?

Taeholic

jk23 wrote: »

Jesus that's upsetting to read, especially the part of pretending it was a game taping his mouth using his trust in his mother.

Apologies, maybe I should have put a warning on the post. It made me sick to my stomach to read too

The Black Oil

Looking at the kids on the RTE article they've such lovely smiles. It's so, so sad.

Taeholic

py2006 wrote: »

So her attempts to kill herself were to avoid a jail sentence and not out of guilt for multiple murders?

It certainly reads that way to me. Her own children. I guess only she can answer that

Purple is a Fruit

joe40 wrote: »

I can understand that up to a point but in this particular case the medical experts for both sides and both legal teams accepted the insanity case.
I can't believe those experts were hoodwinked or overly influenced by emotion as opposed to psychiatric medicine.
Even the husband can accept the verdict.
Each case is different, in this case there seems to be a clear medical consensus.
As a non medical person I can accept that.

Emotion, gender all kinds of things can come into wider debate but in that courthouse the only factors were medical and legal.
Comparisons with other cases is moot. No two are the same.

Absolutely. And any posts filled with vile language and violence and warped fantasies regarding her are disgusting.

But emotion outside the court-room is still valid IMO. Criticism of her actions without violent talk is perfectly reasonable.

jk23

Taeholic wrote: »

Apologies, maybe I should have put a warning on the post. It made me sick to my stomach to read too

No you are grand, it's part of what went on and to know how the situation unfolded, thanks for uploading it.

jackboy

It’s hard to get any sort of accurate picture based on what is portrayed in the media but she comes across as controlling and manipulative. She doesn’t come across as empathetic.

Probably only the husband really knows the truth.

SeaFields

As a grown man it's rare if ever that listening to media reports of a crime would upset me. This was one of them. Horrifying events emerged from that trial. Absolutely horrifying.

JP Liz V1

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

The public have a right to know what she did.
When a man kills his kids he is a murdering scumbag but when a woman does it its a tragedy.
When articles on this case appeared on FB over the last few days quite a few women in the comments section blamed the husband for his wife murdering their kids.

I don't care the gender but I am sorry I cannot feel any sympathy for her and the more of the case I read and see the kids pictures, the angrier I get, how could a mother, a nurse do that :mad:

py2006

Imagine the neighbours of that family. Imagine the parents of the kids who played with these poor children. How do they explain this to them.
Imagine their cousins too. I know its not on the same level as the father.

Wow, the sadness extends the more you think about it.

newuser99999

MoonUnit75 wrote: »

Isn't everything you've claimed about Alan Hawe hearsay, revisionism and gossip though? Before the funerals there was this:
"Clodagh Hawe’s sister Jacqueline posted a Facebook link to an article on Alan’s mental state and added: ‘A bit of truth at last!’ She also paid a heartfelt tribute to the entire Hawe family, adding: ‘RIP our wonderful Alan, Clodagh, Liam, Niall and Ryan we love you all our angels xxxxxxxx.’"

"‘Alan and Clodagh were a happy and loving couple and what happened was completely out of character."
https://evoke.ie/2016/09/02/news/irish-news/clodagh-hawes-sister-explains-pressure-on-father-of-three

Contents of the suicide letters were withheld by gardai as they were too upsetting. He’s been exhumed since too. Talk about suiting your own narrative posting that.

monkeybutter

starkid wrote: »

thanks look its not the case to be getting angry over. I'm more pressed by the Cortes case, but getting worked up over things we can't change, sometimes whats the point.

I accept your viewpoint.

The Cortes case is hardly in the same league as this

Taeholic

jk23 wrote: »

No you are grand, it's part of what went on and to know how the situation unfolded, thanks for uploading it.

I regretted reading it to be honest that's why I didn't post the link to the full article. Heart breaking read, those poor children

starkid

monkeybutter wrote: »

The Cortes case is hardly in the same league as this

yeah of course not. I mean pressed in terms of the justice of a particular case, in my own mind. and in relation to another thread on here where this debate has been playing out.

Its all hugely complex.

Faugheen

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

I don't care the gender but I am sorry I cannot feel any sympathy for her and the more of the case I read and see the kids pictures, the angrier I get, how could a mother, a nurse do that :mad:

I'm sorry but if you're reading it more and more and then coming to this conclusion then you're clearly not reading it properly at all.

pjohnson

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

I don't care the gender but I am sorry I cannot feel any sympathy for her and the more of the case I read and see the kids pictures, the angrier I get, how could a mother, a nurse do that :mad:

When she "recovers" this time she will hardly be let go back to work this time?

Any parents who had her "treat" their kids must have shivered when they realised who she was.

Sickening case.

Strumms

Samsonsmasher wrote: »

If you are insane you don't know right from wrong.

Mental illness is not the same as insanity.

It's the reason why one person gets committed for murder and another gets sent to prison for life.

Mental illness and insanity are basically different manifestations and levels of the same problem... a problem that requires treating and as a greater priority one which people need protecting from.... if that means instatutionalizing individuals to protect society and treat people if thats possible.. we do it...

People stiĺl need to be held to account and punished for crimes.

Samsonsmasher

It's quite clear that several people commenting on this thread should be excused from jury service.

The psychiatric evidence is the basis on which we judge this lady guilty and culpable or guilty but insane.

The nature of the crime - a parent who suffers from mental illness with a history of psychiatric treatment killing her children and attempting suicide - requires a pdychiatric evaluation.

The psychiatrist believed the lady was incapable of knowing right from wrong.

By definition she was insane and it's open and shut. She wasn't responsible for her actions.

She needs to be treated until such time as she is well again. If she recovers she can get on with normal life.

That's the law and how psychiatric patients judged to be insane are treated.

The deaths of the children is tragedy as if they were killed by a flood or an escaped lion. The flood or the lion are not evil and neither is an insane person who takes a life.

MoonUnit75

newuser99999 wrote: »

Contents of the suicide letters were withheld by gardai as they were too upsetting. He’s been exhumed since too. Talk about suiting your own narrative posting that.

My point is that the stories about Hawe being extremely domineering, controlling, and abusive were publicly refuted in the days after the killings by Clodagh's own sister. She also later said in a radio interview that had he been abusive they would have known about it.

Are you arguing that the suicide letter was him recounting being abusive, controlling and not letting Clodagh go anywhere alone? My understanding is that all these claims were made before anyone except the Gardai were aware of what was in the letter. It suited the ideological PR bonanza that his crime presented.

pjohnson

Samsonsmasher wrote: »

It's quite clear that several people commenting on this thread should be excused from jury service.

The psychiatric evidence is the basis on which we judge this lady guilty and culpable or guilty but insane.

The nature of the crime - a parent who suffers from mental illness with a history of psychiatric treatment killing her children and attempting suicide - requires a pdychiatric evaluation.

The psychiatrist believed the lady was incapable of knowing right from wrong.

By definition she was insane and it's open and shut. She wasn't responsible for her actions.

She needs to be treated until such time as she is well again. If she recovers she can get on with normal life.

That's the law and how psychiatric patients judged to be insane are treated.

The deaths of the children is tragedy as if they were killed by a flood or an escaped lion. The flood or the lion are not evil and neither is an insane person who takes a life.

So shes supposed to be allowed back working as a paediatric nurse after what she did to children?

I cant see any parents happy at that idea.

py2006

Samsonsmasher wrote: »

The deaths of the children is tragedy as if they were killed by a flood or an escaped lion. The flood or the lion are not evil and neither is an insane person who takes a life.

As opposed to the sane people who normally kill.

FYI, Lions kill for food
floods don't have a conscience

monkeybutter

Samsonsmasher wrote: »

It's quite clear that several people commenting on this thread should be excused from jury service.

The psychiatric evidence is the basis on which we judge this lady guilty and culpable or guilty but insane.

The nature of the crime - a parent who suffers from mental illness with a history of psychiatric treatment killing her children and attempting suicide - requires a pdychiatric evaluation.

The psychiatrist believed the lady was incapable of knowing right from wrong.

By definition she was insane and it's open and shut. She wasn't responsible for her actions.

She needs to be treated until such time as she is well again. If she recovers she can get on with normal life.

That's the law and how psychiatric patients judged to be insane are treated.

The deaths of the children is tragedy as if they were killed by a flood or an escaped lion. The flood or the lion are not evil and neither is an insane person who takes a life.

Is this the psychiatric profession who failed so spectacularly to stop this in the first place

Your comparison is actually sickening