Irish Property Market chat II - *read mod note post #1 before posting*

combat14

Facebook to allow Irish staff work from other European countries
In a change to company policy, CEO Mark Zuckerberg told staff that they will soon be allowed apply to work from other European countries, including the UK.

https://m.independent.ie/business/technology/facebook-to-allow-irish-staff-work-from-other-european-countries-40521728.html

huge news, if this takes place over the next couple of years there will be a bigger push for the same arrangement across the it sector here given nose bleed extortionate rents in dublin

Timing belt

Yurt! wrote: »

The point is simple. Supply alone, under current conditions will not, and it has been proven in markets all around the world - ameliorate the problem. This is fact. Anyone saying that supply and keeps on chanting 'supply and demand' brings down house prices like a drunk football fan on the terrace as a matter of course deserves an F.

Supply and Demand does impact housing. It's basic economics.....

If you want to look at it more in-dept then you look at:

• the impact QE has had with investors snapping up as much property as they can get their hands on due to low yield of other asset classes but fundamentally all this is an increase in Demand.
• You can look at whether a new build property is a substitute for a second hand property. Most will say it is however there are people who will not buy a new property and would prefer a second hand property in an established area because they fear that the new property will be predominately social housing. There is a limited supply of second hand properties in established areas so you are back to supply and demand.
• You can look at the impact on investors on the housing market... in an elastic market where new property can be brought to the market quickly you find that the investors stimulate the housing market making it profitable to build new houses and supply increases and in turn rent falls. yet again it is supply and demand.
• You can look at HAP and argue that the government are keeping rents artificially high by providing a floor but yet again there must be demand and a lack of supply to sustain this.
• You can argue that properties are being kept vacant to restrict supply... yet again it is supply and demand.
• You can argue that you are more intelligent than the average boards poster..... This has noting to do with supply and Demand.

As Ernest Hemingway wrote: “Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.”

cnocbui

combat14 wrote: »

Facebook to allow Irish staff work from other European countries
In a change to company policy, CEO Mark Zuckerberg told staff that they will soon be allowed apply to work from other European countries, including the UK.

https://m.independent.ie/business/technology/facebook-to-allow-irish-staff-work-from-other-european-countries-40521728.html

huge news, if this takes place over the next couple of years there will be a bigger push for the same arrangement across the it sector here given nose bleed extortionate rents in dublin

It's not as big a move as it seems. These workers would still qualify as being tax resident in Ireland, which means they would have to work in Ireland for 183 days a year, or more, so they would need to maintain a residence in Ireland.

if they were working permanently in another country, they would no longer be Irish employees and the company would probably have to treat them as having been transferred, which they can do already.

Timing belt

Timing belt wrote: »

Supply and Demand does impact housing. It's basic economics.....

If you want to look at it more in-dept then you look at:

• the impact QE has had with investors snapping up as much property as they can get their hands on due to low yield of other asset classes but fundamentally all this is an increase in Demand.
• You can look at whether a new build property is a substitute for a second hand property. Most will say it is however there are people who will not buy a new property and would prefer a second hand property in an established area because they fear that the new property will be predominately social housing. There is a limited supply of second hand properties in established areas so you are back to supply and demand.
• You can look at the impact on investors on the housing market... in an elastic market where new property can be brought to the market quickly you find that the investors stimulate the housing market making it profitable to build new houses and supply increases and in turn rent falls. yet again it is supply and demand.
• You can look at HAP and argue that the government are keeping rents artificially high by providing a floor but yet again there must be demand and a lack of supply to sustain this.
• You can argue that properties are being kept vacant to restrict supply... yet again it is supply and demand.
• You can argue that you are more intelligent than the average boards poster..... This has noting to do with supply and Demand.

As Ernest Hemingway wrote: “Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.”

That supply and demand affects price is beyond doubt, what is in doubt is whether people who state that, understand that it is in itself an oversimplification of the situation. There are a multitude of factors which affect both supply and demand which must be considered in tandem with your statement. If Hemingway was alive, no doubt he would have a quotable line to describe those who are intelligent enough to understand the obvious, but not quite enough to understand the reasons why it might be more complex.

Amadan Dubh

combat14 wrote: »

Facebook to allow Irish staff work from other European countries
In a change to company policy, CEO Mark Zuckerberg told staff that they will soon be allowed apply to work from other European countries, including the UK.

https://m.independent.ie/business/technology/facebook-to-allow-irish-staff-work-from-other-european-countries-40521728.html

huge news, if this takes place over the next couple of years there will be a bigger push for the same arrangement across the it sector here given nose bleed extortionate rents in dublin

11am called and wants its news back.

It's a fair few pages back now but was given a good seeing to when posted this morning!

fliball123

Dav010 wrote: »

That supply and demand affects price is beyond doubt, what is in doubt is whether people who state that, understand that it is in itself an oversimplification of the situation. There are a multitude of factors which affect both supply and demand which must be considered in tandem with your statement. If Hemingway was alive, no doubt he would have a quotable line to describe those who are intelligent enough to understand the obvious, but not quite enough to understand the reasons why it might be more complex.

It is far more complex but Yurt is arguing that supply and demand play feck all part in how the price of property is made up. All of what your talking about the multitude of factors either hit on the stream in (supply) or the stream out (demand) I don't think anyone ever said it was not complex but to state it has nothing to do with supply and demand is bonkers

cubatahavana

Hubertj wrote: »

Are you and your wife from Spain? It must be really good to have that to plan for.

I’m Spanish and she’s polish, but she really wants to move to Spain. She works in a global role, so language wouldn’t be a barrier in the office

awec

cubatahavana wrote: »

I’m Spanish and she’s polish, but she really wants to move to Spain. She works in a global role, so language wouldn’t be a barrier in the office

Surely you'd miss our amazing weather?

JimmyVik

fliball123 wrote: »

It is far more complex but Yurt is arguing that supply and demand play feck all part in how the price of property is made up. All of what your talking about the multitude of factors either hit on the stream in (supply) or the stream out (demand) I don't think anyone ever said it was not complex but to state it has nothing to do with supply and demand is bonkers

I think everyone else agrees thats supply and demand was and is the key.
And supply in the wrong places was also a problem last time as there was no demand there after the crash.

Leave poor old Yurt alone though. He was out the day his lecturer covered demand.
He seems to understand supply though so he must have been in that day:)

PropQueries

More information on the potential impact of the Facebook move in the Irish Times today and it looks like the government is getting worried. The other obvious side of the coin is the potential impact on the Dublin residential market come September IMO

"Behind the scenes, there is considerable alarm at the Department of Finance at the move by Facebook, with discussions understood to be ongoing between Merrion Street and Revenue. Sources pointed to the possible loss of income tax from workers who are not resident here, and there is worry that the Facebook move would set a precedent for other companies. One source described the move as “hugely worrying” and said that if it turned into a trend, it would present “enormous challenges to the revenue base”.

Three quarters of the article is made up of tax etc. adviors using the excuses given here in the past about why it can't work. But, I would think that's just a fearful reaction given the obvious implications, not just from a government income tax revenue point of view but also from demand for housing going forward. Remember, the projections of demand for housing are based on c. 30,000 net inward migration per year.

The truth is that facebook is doing this. They don't believe it has tax implications for their Irish HQ base and all other similar services based multinationals now have c. three months to look into what facebook is doing and to see if they can do it too before office workers are meant to start returning to the office around September.

Link to article in Irish Times here: https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/work-from-abroad-initiative-won-t-alter-tax-status-in-ireland-facebook-1.4590104

In another article in the Irish Times today, it says: "Facebook’s remote work move means floodgates have opened. Lawyer says decision could have more impact on Ireland Inc than corporate tax reform".

The floodgates have obviously opened. It will very interesting to see how this will impact the Dublin City property market come September and going forward, especially at the higher property values end of the market.

Link to this article in Irish Times here: https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/facebook-s-remote-work-move-means-floodgates-have-opened-1.4589770

timmyntc

PropQueries wrote: »

More information on the potential impact of the Facebook move in the Irish Times today and it looks like the government is getting worried. The other obvious side of the coin is the potential impact on the Dublin residential market come September IMO

"Behind the scenes, there is considerable alarm at the Department of Finance at the move by Facebook, with discussions understood to be ongoing between Merrion Street and Revenue. Sources pointed to the possible loss of income tax from workers who are not resident here, and there is worry that the Facebook move would set a precedent for other companies. One source described the move as “hugely worrying” and said that if it turned into a trend, it would present “enormous challenges to the revenue base”.

Three quarters of the article is made up of tax etc. adviors using the excuses given here in the past about why it can't work. But, I would think that's just a fearful reaction given the obvious implications, not just from a government income tax revenue point of view but also from demand for housing going forward. Remember, the projections of demand for housing are based on c. 30,000 net inward migration per year.

The truth is that facebook is doing this. They don't believe it has tax implications for their Irish HQ base and all other similar services based multinationals now have c. three months to look into what facebook is doing and to see if they can do it too before office workers are meant to start returning to the office around September.

Link to article in Irish Times here: https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/work-from-abroad-initiative-won-t-alter-tax-status-in-ireland-facebook-1.4590104

In another article in the Irish Times today, it says: "Facebook’s remote work move means floodgates have opened. Lawyer says decision could have more impact on Ireland Inc than corporate tax reform".

The floodgates have obviously opened. It will very interesting to see how this will impact the Dublin City property market come September and going forward, especially at the higher property values end of the market.

Link to this article in Irish Times here: https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/facebook-s-remote-work-move-means-floodgates-have-opened-1.4589770

If people are still tax resident here then there will be no income tax loss - the bigger loss will be from spending. Businesses in particular would be worried, as its the footfall they rely on. Take that away for up to half of the year and they will be seeing big holes in their revenue.

Villa05

JimmyVik wrote:

No. Its all correct. It was a demand driven boom. All was well until the demand left. Then you were left with massive over supply. Same will happen again. But this time at least normal people wont be over stretched as much as last time.

Are you sure?
The lobbyists representing investment funds are big supporters of the shared ownership scheme. If there supporting that, its part of there exit plan.
Shared ownership by its nature is loans for housing to people the system believes can't afford the price. The state is the underwriter so the public will have to pay up. A built in bail out, so to speak at maximum price

SmokyMo wrote:

Changing government can be a start thought.

Changing gov/policy is critical. We saw in tralee how policy facilitated investment funds buy property at prices that would be affordable to local workers. They further took advantage of Gov policy to double the price of that property effectively putting outside the affordability range of local workers. Tax dodgers are favoured over locals who help sustain the town and contribute to

How come we can facilitate investment funds to buy property at affordable rates but not citizens

I think it really underlines that government by far is the most significant contributer to the problem

Timing belt wrote:

You can look at HAP and argue that the government are keeping rents artificially high by providing a floor but yet again there must be demand and a lack of supply to sustain this.

The argument that HAP provides a floor on prices is obsolete its now driving rent prices to new heights for city centre apartments that the private market can't afford
We will become a case study on bubbles in future economics classes

Nijmegen

timmyntc wrote: »

If people are still tax resident here then there will be no income tax loss - the bigger loss will be from spending. Businesses in particular would be worried, as its the footfall they rely on. Take that away for up to half of the year and they will be seeing big holes in their revenue.

If! And if Facebook has them operating abroad for a time and it's working, and they're having the headache of dealing with both Revenue and a third country tax department to keep it all in order (even counting days here and there), I can see them just letting the employees be abroad.

Villa05

PropQueries wrote:

More information on the potential impact of the Facebook move in the Irish Times today and it looks like the government is getting worried.

The head of the IDA was on radio this morning and came across as being troubled by the decision

AlmightyCushion

timmyntc wrote: »

If people are still tax resident here then there will be no income tax loss - the bigger loss will be from spending. Businesses in particular would be worried, as its the footfall they rely on. Take that away for up to half of the year and they will be seeing big holes in their revenue.

These people will be moving to a different country so there will be income tax losses as they will be tax resident elsewhere. Saying that, Facebook say they will be expanding their workforce here and expect it to grow even with this decision.

Nijmegen

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

These people will be moving to a different country so there will be income tax losses as they will be tax resident elsewhere. Saying that, Facebook say they will be expanding their workforce here and expect it to grow even with this decision.

183 days will become a magic number that we all forgot after the last recession (remember cinderella flights for millionaires...)

The tax wedge is one thing. The "for every FDI job we get x further jobs in the economy" is the other. Big structural changes we potentially know not of to come... Or maybe it'll be a big bust! But either way choppy waters.

awec

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

These people will be moving to a different country so there will be income tax losses as they will be tax resident elsewhere. Saying that, Facebook say they will be expanding their workforce here and expect it to grow even with this decision.

Is that in the Irish Times article?

AlmightyCushion

Nijmegen wrote: »

183 days will become a magic number that we all forgot after the last recession (remember cinderella flights for millionaires...)

The tax wedge is one thing. The "for every FDI job we get x further jobs in the economy" is the other. Big structural changes we potentially know not of to come... Or maybe it'll be a big bust! But either way choppy waters.

They are moving country. They won't be here for 183 days so they won't be tax resident here. They will be tax resident in what ever country they move to.

coolshannagh28

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

These people will be moving to a different country so there will be income tax losses as they will be tax resident elsewhere. Saying that, Facebook say they will be expanding their workforce here and expect it to grow even with this decision.

This is the first step towards outsourcing of WFH to really low cost economies another threat to employment in general.

AlmightyCushion

awec wrote: »

Is that in the Irish Times article?

Yes.

Asked whether such moves would lead to corporation tax issues if a large portion of its workforce was no longer based in Ireland, Facebook said it still wanted to grow its Irish operation. There was no change to plans for a new campus at Ballsbridge, Dublin, which would accommodate up to 7,000 staff on the site of the former AIB bank centre, it said.

“Remote work will not have any impact on the substance of our operations here or employee numbers on balance,” Facebook said in reply to questions.

“Furthermore, we don’t expect employee numbers to decrease. If anything we expect them to grow as we continue to hire in Ireland.”

awec

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

Yes.

Strange how this was completely omitted from PropQueries synopsis of the article.

I should probably buy an IT sub.

I suggested before that remote work will allow these companies to grow beyond their current headcount as they can do it relatively cheaply, since they no longer need to invest big capital in increasing office space up front. Sounds like this is what they are looking at.

AlmightyCushion

awec wrote: »

Strange how this was completely omitted from PropQueries synopsis of the article.

I should probably buy an IT sub.

Right click link > open in private window. I just saved you a euro a month. Go buy yourself a bag of crisps with it :pac:

awec

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

They are moving country. They won't be here for 183 days so they won't be tax resident here. They will be tax resident in what ever country they move to.

Yes tax resident wherever they live and also subject to the employment laws of wherever they live.

In reality what happens is their employment moves from Facebook Ireland to Facebook Wherever, and they get the local salary, local benefits, local perks etc.

Cyrus

PropQueries wrote: »

More information on the potential impact of the Facebook move in the Irish Times today and it looks like the government is getting worried. The other obvious side of the coin is the potential impact on the Dublin residential market come September IMO

"Behind the scenes, there is considerable alarm at the Department of Finance at the move by Facebook, with discussions understood to be ongoing between Merrion Street and Revenue. Sources pointed to the possible loss of income tax from workers who are not resident here, and there is worry that the Facebook move would set a precedent for other companies. One source described the move as “hugely worrying” and said that if it turned into a trend, it would present “enormous challenges to the revenue base”.

Three quarters of the article is made up of tax etc. adviors using the excuses given here in the past about why it can't work. But, I would think that's just a fearful reaction given the obvious implications, not just from a government income tax revenue point of view but also from demand for housing going forward. Remember, the projections of demand for housing are based on c. 30,000 net inward migration per year.

The truth is that facebook is doing this. They don't believe it has tax implications for their Irish HQ base and all other similar services based multinationals now have c. three months to look into what facebook is doing and to see if they can do it too before office workers are meant to start returning to the office around September.

Link to article in Irish Times here: https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/work-from-abroad-initiative-won-t-alter-tax-status-in-ireland-facebook-1.4590104

In another article in the Irish Times today, it says: "Facebook’s remote work move means floodgates have opened. Lawyer says decision could have more impact on Ireland Inc than corporate tax reform".

The floodgates have obviously opened. It will very interesting to see how this will impact the Dublin City property market come September and going forward, especially at the higher property values end of the market.

Link to this article in Irish Times here: https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/facebook-s-remote-work-move-means-floodgates-have-opened-1.4589770

so facebook have said they will be growing headcount in ireland and that those working remotely will become employees in other jurisdictions, thats the summary right?

not quite the floodgates opening.

Ace2007

Cyrus wrote: »

so facebook have said they will be growing headcount in ireland and that those working remotely will become employees in other jurisdictions, thats the summary right?

not quite the floodgates opening.

Also those who move abroad would be having their salaries changed to take account of said new location - you know - lower standard of living = pay cut - but again that's being left out of a lot of posts...

fliball123

Ace2007 wrote: »

Also those who move abroad would be having their salaries changed to take account of said new location - you know - lower standard of living = pay cut - but again that's being left out of a lot of posts...

Doe it say that in the article?

JimmyVik

Ace2007 wrote: »

Also those who move abroad would be having their salaries changed to take account of said new location - you know - lower standard of living = pay cut - but again that's being left out of a lot of posts...

When this is done ion our company you get the choice of the local pay scale straight away or you can to keep your Irish salary for the first year and then you have to move to the local pay grade.
In practice the people who have moved have always kept the Irish salary as the pay for their jobs is crap compared to the Irish salary in the other countries.
You also lose your pension benefits straight away on moving abroad.

MacronvFrugals

If what FB are doing takes off we really have to ask ourselves can Dublin compete with our European counterparts, in my opinion it wildly lacks in basic services such as transport, heck even being to some of the lower income EU capital's i'm always blown away by how nice the city is to travel around etc


Just 14% of Dublin houses built within walking distance of public transport


In an article from Reuter's today they also highlight this competition issue in regards to housing

The parts of Ireland's economy that rely on the continued success of its multinational jobs machine are betting the deep roots some of the world's biggest companies have laid down can see off the threat of a global corporate tax overhaul.

However a softening of Ireland's decades-long tax advantage will show up deficiencies elsewhere when competing for foreign direct investment, most notably a persistent dearth of affordable housing.

"The biggest issue is the housing situation," said Nowlan, whose tenants include Twitter (TWTR.N) and U.S. software company HubSpot Inc (HUBS.N). "We really need to get on top of resolving that."

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/just-14-of-dublin-houses-built-within-walking-distance-of-public-transport-1.4589964

SmokyMo

Right now its popular for companies to say they will be offering full wfh, choose your flexi hours bla bla bla.. same like the pledges for going carbon neutral by whatever year.... Employees think they finally have to power to dictate their hours and work environments
Reality on the ground is different, critical roles will mean revert to office culture again. What do you think is gonna happen to your career when everyone in your team is the office and you chose to wfh?

jill_valentine

MacronvFrugals wrote: »

If what FB are doing takes off we really have to ask ourselves can Dublin compete with our European counterparts, in my opinion it wildly lacks in basic services such as transport, heck even being to some of the lower income EU capital's i'm always blown away by how nice the city is to travel around etc


Just 14% of Dublin houses built within walking distance of public transport


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/just-14-of-dublin-houses-built-within-walking-distance-of-public-transport-1.4589964

This is it. People might point to lower local wages, but what kind of city are they getting in return? Dublin has **** all going for it in terms of facilities, public transport, even public spaces. Bins and toilets are the tip of the iceberg.

If you're talking about somebody with the marketability - and now mobility - to live anywhere, does Dublin offer them a better basic standard of city life before considering pay differential than Barcelona, Munich etc? I really don't think so.

Our fairly adversarial attitude to public utility could come back to haunt us in years to come. Dublin's just not a very nice city to live in. Individual salaries don't change that.