Irish Property Market chat II - *read mod note post #1 before posting*

awec

Amadan Dubh wrote: »

Milltown, Elm Park and The Castle are all within D14, D6 and D4. If you draw a line across Dublin from east to west through these golf courses you'll find they're all approximately 5km to the city centre. Pretty crazy to think that can happen but I know that there is a dearth of membership in the mid 20s to mid 30s age groups so we will see something happen in the next 10 years I'd say. Dublin would be so much nicer if these places were public parks and I think it is extremely elitist that these clubs exist on the prime land they do.

What on earth are you talking about?

It's crazy that this can happen, and it's elitist that there are golf clubs in a city? That is definitely up there among the most bizarre viewpoints seen on this thread, and there have been many.

C14N

DataDude wrote: »

In terms of land value though, located in a triangle between Mount Merrion, Donnybrook and Booterstown. It must be up there with the most valuable land per sqm in the country?

Amadan Dubh wrote: »

Milltown, Elm Park and The Castle are all within D14, D6 and D4. If you draw a line across Dublin from east to west through these golf courses you'll find they're all approximately 5km to the city centre. Pretty crazy to think that can happen but I know that there is a dearth of membership in the mid 20s to mid 30s age groups so we will see something happen in the next 10 years I'd say. Dublin would be so much nicer if these places were public parks and I think it is extremely elitist that these clubs exist on the prime land they do.

I agree, I think it's valuable land and the population would be much better served if they were instead converted to public parks or to residential (a consistently tax based on the value of the land would likely render them completely unprofitable and make this happen), I'm just replying to a poster who was asking about farms and golf course specfically in the "city limits".

awec

Villa05 wrote: »

Was listening to an interview on Pat Kenny during the week about ESB networks teaming up with Tipperary based green company who bring the BER up to a minimum B1
The objective is a one stop shop for a total refit with the company handling everything including grants

For a complete job air tightness/modern non fossil fuel heating system for a standard 3 bed they quoted 30k rising to 40 if the windows required changing.

Add in a chipy/sparky/plumber and maybe double up the budget. Would you bring alot of unused property back into use

Rising labour and material costs would imply it might be better to work with what we have than building from scratch

Bring the BER up from what? B2 to B1? :pac:

30k, 40k with windows. Ha.

JimmyVik

Villa05 wrote: »

Was listening to an interview on Pat Kenny during the week about ESB networks teaming up with Tipperary based green company who bring the BER up to a minimum B1
The objective is a one stop shop for a total refit with the company handling everything including grants

For a complete job air tightness/modern non fossil fuel heating system for a standard 3 bed they quoted 30k rising to 40 if the windows required changing.

Add in a chipy/sparky/plumber and maybe double up the budget. Would you bring alot of unused property back into use

Rising labour and material costs would imply it might be better to work with what we have than building from scratch

Id do it for €10K

Ace2007

I would love to see the local reaction if you try to take land around there and sell the houses at "affordable" prices and not what the market value for a house in that area is.

C14N

awec wrote: »

Ah here, Elm Park is just off Merrion Road, that's in the city.

It's really not though. It's across the road from UCD, and I can say for sure that when I was in UCD, none of us were under the illusion that we were living in the city. It's also literally not a part of the city limits, it's part of DLR. When I lived there in college I was registered to vote in DLR, not the city.

Ace2007

C14N wrote: »

It's really not though. It's across the road from UCD, and I can say for sure that when I was in UCD, none of us were under the illusion that we were living in the city. It's also literally not a part of the city limits, it's part of DLR. When I lived there in college I was registered to vote in DLR, not the city.

So what do you consider the city boundries?

awec

C14N wrote: »

It's really not though. It's across the road from UCD, and I can say for sure that when I was in UCD, none of us were under the illusion that we were living in the city. It's also literally not a part of the city limits, it's part of DLR. When I lived there in college I was registered to vote in DLR, not the city.

Who cares about the specific council? Nobody says "I live in Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown".

It's not in the city centre, but UCD is in the city. So is Elm Park.

Amadan Dubh

awec wrote: »

What do you mean "if the likes of AIB are doing it"?

The banks have been talking about this for years, long before any covid. Banking, as a business, has changed massively. It's the same with their branches, they don't need them any more.

It's not the same as branches at all. Branches are being closed as the demand is not there for foot traffic each day weighed against the cost. The office was an outlet for a lot of these back office roles to be carried out and they still need to be carried out but they are now realizing what is the point of using 100% of the pre-covid office space for back office jobs that have been done almost fully remotely from home for over a year; a policy of 2/3 days in the office per week is 50% of their office space rendered completely unnecessary straight away which they have decided is substantial enough to sub-let it.

And these back office banking roles would not have had significant WFH pre-covid and have now embraced it significantly, which is the point I'm making that "if the likes of AIB are doing it" (i.e. if places with traditionally little to no WFH policies were being changed dramatically) then there is no way back for the office sub-sector in the commercial property sector.

awec

Amadan Dubh wrote: »

It's not the same as branches at all. Branches are being closed as the demand is not there for foot traffic each day weighed against the cost. The office was an outlet for a lot of these back office roles to be carried out and they still need to be carried out but they are now realizing what is the point of using 100% of the pre-covid office space for back office jobs that have been done almost fully remotely from home for over a year; a policy of 2/3 days in the office per week is 50% of their office space rendered completely unnecessary straight away which they have decided is substantial enough to sub-let it.

And these back office banking roles would not have had significant WFH pre-covid and have now embraced it significantly, which is the point I'm making that "if the likes of AIB are doing it" (i.e. if places with traditionally little to no WFH policies were being changed dramatically) then there is no way back for the office sub-sector in the commercial property sector.

Off the top of my head KPMG only announced last week they're building a brand new, large office in Dublin city, because that's what their clients and partners wanted. I bet they had strong WFH policies pre-covid, and yet here they are, investing big in office space.

As with everything here, the reality is more nuanced than people want to let on.

Last year Google pulled out of one of the big building in the docks. Total doom, according to the property forum on boards, that was the end of it all, offices were sooo 2019. Building has since been let by TikTok.

cnocbui

timmyntc wrote: »

What country would you move to, to buy your property with no "socialism" taxes on your property? There arent many.

Also you never answered my previous question, does LPT interfere with your property rights? If not, then why would vacant tax be any different?

I didn't say LPT does, but a vacancy tax that exists as punishment for owning property goes against the idea of owning property being a right. I think the right to own property should be removed from the constitution since it seems generally accepted that it's a societal negative.

Australia doesn't have punishemnt taxes for owning property, besides a limited vacant property tax in Melbourne. In New Zealand, your property tax pays for the provision of services such as street sweeping, lighting, rubbish collection, recycling, water - yes, that's right, you actually get services in return. Same in Oz, local rates included rubbish and recycling services.

L1011

C14N wrote: »

It's really not though. It's across the road from UCD, and I can say for sure that when I was in UCD, none of us were under the illusion that we were living in the city. It's also literally not a part of the city limits, it's part of DLR. When I lived there in college I was registered to vote in DLR, not the city.

UCD is massive and only one corner of it is across the road from one corner of Elm Park GC.

If mapping is correct, Elm Park GC is entirely in the DCC area - its borders are the council borders.

C14N

Ace2007 wrote: »

So what do you consider the city boundries?

The boundaries drawn up the county council. There is a defined limit

awec wrote: »

Who cares about the specific council? Nobody says "I live in Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown".

It's not in the city centre, but UCD is in the city. So is Elm Park.

Of course they do, it's relevant to where you vote and what local policies and bylaws are in your area, and for any public policy or statistcal purposes, the city is defined as the edges of DCC.

Subjectively though, UCD might be fairly close to the city, but it's still very much feels like a suburb. It's surrounded by small quiet houses and businesses on all sides. Even colloquially when you're on campus as a student you talk about going "into town" for the evening on the bus, you never feel like you're already "in town" like you would in Trinity.

JimmyVik

cnocbui wrote: »

I didn't say LPT does, but a vacancy tax that exists as punishment for owning property goes against the idea of owning property being a right. I think the right to own property should be removed from the constitution since it seems generally accepted that it's a societal negative.

Australia doesn't have punishemnt taxes for owning property, besides a limited vacant property tax in Melbourne. In New Zealand, your property tax pays for the provision of services such as street sweeping, lighting, rubbish collection, recycling, water - yes, that's right, you actually get services in return. Same in Oz, local rates included rubbish and recycling services.

Ireland is famous for begrudgery.
Punishment taxes are just an extension of that Irish character trait.

awec

C14N wrote: »

The boundaries drawn up the county council. There is a defined limit



Of course they do, it's relevant to where you vote and what local policies and bylaws are in your area, and for any public policy or statistcal purposes, the city is defined as the edges of DCC.

Subjectively though, UCD might be fairly close to the city, but it's still very much feels like a suburb. It's surrounded by small quiet houses and businesses on all sides. Even colloquially when you're on campus as a student you talk about going "into town" for the evening on the bus, you never feel like you're already "in town" like you would in Trinity.

I have to say as someone who lived in DLR for close to a decade I never, ever heard anyone say "I live in DLR".

Going "into town" means going into the city centre. It is a colloquialism, I'm sure even people living in the city centre itself say it. The suburbs of Dublin City are still Dublin City.

JimmyVik

L1011 wrote: »

UCD is massive and only one corner of it is across the road from one corner of Elm Park GC.

If mapping is correct, Elm Park GC is entirely in the DCC area - its borders are the council borders.

Maybe UCD should be made to give up all their land and build a nice big tower and go vertical for the university

Eclectic Econometrics

C14N wrote: »

I don't fully know what the story is with it, but a family friend works with developers and has said that, possibly like the Booterstown building, it was zoned for offices originally. However, now there is no need for more offices in the area (Sandyford has had plenty of others go up since and has clearly vacant office buildings to let already) and the arcitecture as-is is not very conducive to offices anyway as it is quite narrow and doesn't have a huge amount of space per floor. But he said the council won't re-zone it for residential use for whatever reason.

I remember looking into it before and developers had applied for planning permission several times over the years. Iirc it was sometimes rejected as they wanted to add additional floors to it, which would harm the character of the area or whatever, as if a derelict concrete shell covered in graffiti is preferable to a slightly taller but new and finished building.

They have tried to get round this by making the building live/work https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/abandoned-sandyford-eyesore-to-be-turned-into-offices-with-beds-1.3269036 but there is still no movement on the site.

This building has taken 15 years to complete. It is 2 minutes walk to a Luas station and very convenient for shops etc., absolute prime spot.

Amadan Dubh

Cyrus wrote: »

is dublin underserved in the public park department? cany say i have ever felt that

I have Ringsend Park, Deer Park, Herbert Park, Blackrock Park and Marley Park on the southside, covering a large geographic chunk of the area and with squares obviously not being counted as parks. Even just turning these golf courses into 9 hole courses would be substantial in terms of the land which could be used for public, recreational space let alone a few apartment blocks.

timmyntc

cnocbui wrote: »

I didn't say LPT does, but a vacancy tax that exists as punishment for owning property goes against the idea of owning property being a right. I think the right to own property should be removed from the constitution since it seems generally accepted that it's a societal negative.

Australia doesn't have punishemnt taxes for owning property, besides a limited vacant property tax in Melbourne. In New Zealand, your property tax pays for the provision of services such as street sweeping, lighting, rubbish collection, recycling, water - yes, that's right, you actually get services in return. Same in Oz, local rates included rubbish and recycling services.

Property tax should pay for those services I agree, unfortunately here it doesnt. Thats a whole other issue.

But how in your mind could LPT not infringe on your property rights where a vacancy tax does?

PropQueries

awec wrote: »

Off the top of my head KPMG only announced last week they're building a brand new, large office in Dublin city, because that's what their clients and partners wanted. I bet they had strong WFH policies pre-covid, and yet here they are, investing big in office space.

As with everything here, the reality is more nuanced than people want to let on.

Last year Google pulled out of one of the big building in the docks. Total doom, according to the property forum on boards, that was the end of it all, offices were sooo 2019. Building has since been let by TikTok.

According to the Irish Times it was due to:

"KPMG currently occupies two buildings in Dublin city centre, one at Stokes Place on Harcourt Street, and another in the IFSC, but is looking to accommodate its entire complement of 2,500 office-based workers under one roof following the expiration of its existing leases in 2026."

And only a few weeks ago, KPMG in the UK:

"Accounting and consultancy group KPMG has told its 16,000 UK staff that they will have to work only an average of two days in the office each week from next month, as the firm revealed its plans for a post-pandemic hybrid working model."

I would imagine KPMG Ireland implementing a similar policy soon as well.

Link to article in Irish Times article on KPMG headquarters here: https://www.irishtimes.com/business/commercial-property/kpmg-selects-hibernia-reit-to-develop-new-dublin-headquarters-1.4577907

Link to KPMG new WFH policy here: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/may/05/kpmg-uk-staff-to-work-in-office-only-two-days-a-week-after-pandemic

timmyntc

Amadan Dubh wrote: »

I have Ringsend Park, Deer Park, Herbert Park, Blackrock Park and Marley Park on the southside, covering a large geographic chunk of the area and with squares obviously not being counted as parks. Even just turning these golf courses into 9 hole courses would be substantial in terms of the land which could be used for public, recreational space let alone a few apartment blocks.

If a golf course is doing enough business to keep it going then it shouldnt be made sell. It provides an amenity to people and is also a business. And pays plenty for it.

Its totally different to a vacant property or site being kept as is with no attempt to remedy it.

"Under the new initiative, which the company has called the “four-day fortnight”, staff will spend the remaining days working either from home or at client sites."

Quite a substantial amount of KPMG staff would have worked from their offices even less than this before covid if we're counting being on client site as not being in the office.

Ozark707

JimmyVik wrote: »

Maybe UCD should be made to give up all their land and build a nice big tower and go vertical for the university

UCD in fairness to them are going high with the new units they are building. A far
cry from my day

C14N

L1011 wrote: »

UCD is massive and only one corner of it is across the road from one corner of Elm Park GC.

If mapping is correct, Elm Park GC is entirely in the DCC area - its borders are the council borders.

Fair enough. I couldn't find a good map for this, but I assumed both were in DLR. In any case, I feel like this tangent has veered far from the original point, which was that I agree golf courses may not be the most efficient use of land in the city, but seems that there is currently only one in the city limits, and even then it's on the border. I'm still not aware of any farms. In any case, if either of them produced enough money to make it worth their while to pay a theoretical land tax in a high-value area, then no problem.

JimmyVik wrote: »

Maybe UCD should be made to give up all their land and build a nice big tower and go vertical for the university

UCD is already on publicly-owned land. Who exactly would they be "giving it up" to?

L1011

C14N wrote: »

Fair enough. I couldn't find a good map for this, but I assumed both were in DLR. In any case, I feel like this tangent has veered far from the original point, which was that I agree golf courses may not be the most efficient use of land in the city, but seems that there is currently only one in the city limits, and even then it's on the border. I'm still not aware of any farms.

There is a farm beside DCU, which is inside DCC.

Clontarf GC is also in DCC.

growleaves

JimmyVik wrote: »

Ireland is famous for begrudgery.
Punishment taxes are just an extension of that Irish character trait.

Right, it has nothing to do with the fact that allowing investors to spike asset prices by deliberately constricting supply directly competes with the need of ordinary Irish couples to live and raise a family. Its just pure spite.

Ace2007

L1011 wrote: »

There is a farm beside DCU, which is inside DCC.

Clontarf GC is also in DCC.

I'm sure the golf course in phibsboro is in DCC as well - there are loads of areas

L1011

Ace2007 wrote: »

I'm sure the golf course in phibsboro is in DCC as well - there are loads of areas

I had to look that up - its a pitch and putt course taking up a lot less space than a full GC! If it closed I'd expect it to be bought to be used as public open / amenity space anyway due to its location.

JimmyVik

growleaves wrote: »

Right, it has nothing to do with the fact that allowing investors to spike asset prices by deliberately constricting supply directly competes with the need of ordinary Irish couples to live and raise a family. Its just pure spite.

Nobody wanted those properties a few years ago.
And now we moan about people who bought them as investments or holiday homes when noone else would buy them.
People on boards were actually laughing at people who bought property either for investment or holiday homes.

JimmyVik

C14N wrote: »

Fair enough. I couldn't find a good map for this, but I assumed both were in DLR. In any case, I feel like this tangent has veered far from the original point, which was that I agree golf courses may not be the most efficient use of land in the city, but seems that there is currently only one in the city limits, and even then it's on the border. I'm still not aware of any farms. In any case, if either of them produced enough money to make it worth their while to pay a theoretical land tax in a high-value area, then no problem.



UCD is already on publicly-owned land. Who exactly would they be "giving it up" to?

To someone who could use the land to build houses for people who need somewhere to live.