The Irish protocol.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117745844#Comment_117745844

On the Chelsea fan thing, you're mistaken to some extent; while certainly not representative of all Chelsea fans, there has long been a connection between Chelsea, Rangers and Linfield fans.

Not what you'd call incredibly common, given the international support for the Premier League, but if you were to pick a team who would have a connection to marching culture, you'd be most likely to find it among Chelsea fans.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117745844#Comment_117745844

You may have been right how it could have ended but since gfa you stats are entirely irrelevant. There cannot be a united ireland until there is a majority of ni want it and I wouldn’t hold my breath for that one.

and I wasn’t painting any picture. I was simply exposing hypocrisy. Can you imagine if a set of fans enjoyed themselves absorbing some Irish culture and unionists got all upset because they seemed to be having too much fun and suggested that they had all been kidnapped and taken to the Irish republican area against their will. Haha. You couldn’t make it up. And would you say they had been ‘subjected’ to traditional irish music - oh the hypocrisy!

and of course it was a different cultural experience. That’s the diversity bit of the Uk you don’t seem to get - if the fans had been in lands end, john O’ groats, Cardiff or Leeds, it would have been all different.

is this them being hijacked or is this them being released after being force-fed alcohol all day in Sandy Row. I am not quite sure lol 😂

https://mobile.twitter.com/vincekearney/status/1425535041342423040

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117745906#Comment_117745906

So they were or they were not hijacked? Not sure what the story is now?

KildareP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117743006#Comment_117743006

The TCA agreement between the UK and the EU is not tenable without these checks.

Which scenario do you believe Westminster will find the easier to swallow and sell to the largest majority?

(1) Checks between the extremely large landmass of GB and the small periphery territory to its West that will impact heavily on those GB-based companies doing business with a market of ~1.9m people?

(2) No trade agreement between the UK and EU that will impact heavily on any UK-based company doing business with a market of ~447m people?

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117745926#Comment_117745926

Where did I say it had been hijacked?! Crikey, Downcow....I was agreeing with you on this one, keep your hair on.

jm08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117743006#Comment_117743006

Will there be checks on the GB side coming from NI? If not, then it's an open border between UK and EU if there are no checks in NI either.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117746231#Comment_117746231

It was somebody on a Chelsea forum who said it was 'hijacked'.

I have no idea how true that was, but you don't have to go on to Chelsea forums to see that some were depressed by the sectarianism on display. Some Twitter comments:

My partner is at that match. We're from Catholic backgrounds (lapsed etc etc) The sectarianism is extremely depressing. There are Chelsea fans who are Irish Catholics. This is a slap in the face.

What were BT sports and Uefa championing today before the match?

Hope United.

Seeing this pretty depressing, straight out of the 1980s. Pity, it's this small minority that continues to let down Chelsea fans.

I'm sure the global Che fans feels embarrassed at the scenes only in NI.

Stephen Clarke on Twitter: "@vincekearney @ChelseaFC @rtenews @RTEsport @dohertypj @G_Broadcast And aren’t they a lovely bunch! https://t.co/0lFe0CGsln" / Twitter

Just some of the stuff from downcow's own link.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117745914#Comment_117745914

You think ? I was brought up in a very working class Unionist household in a very Unionist town, and at this point I feel much more affinity with RoI than I do with Gt Britain; the current UK government is easily the most incompetent, corrupt and out-of-touch with working people that I have seen in my lifetime (> 50 yrs). Even Maggie beats this lot.

I would vote unification right now if asked, and I know a few from the same type of background who are similar.

You might be surprised how many of the silent middle of the road "Unionists" are quietly shifting their opinion.

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117745914#Comment_117745914

The North can't stop the UK from collapsing, can it. If Scotland and England decide to go it alone then you are no longer in the union or a unionist.

And it was an Irish cultural experience for those Chelsea fans in their eyes. On the talk of football why is the association of the North called the "Irish Football Association" when it's football fans are not Irish according to you?

jamule

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117746650#Comment_117746650

There are really 2 types of fans. The ones whinging about the prod band are fans of chelsea global brand company football club, not a clue about the club other than the recent billionaires play thing.

The others are the real chelsea supporters, they were there before the russian takeover and they will be there when the go to **** again. They will also support rangers and Linfield to a lesser degree (and all the shitebag right whinge guff that comes with it).

BluePlanet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117739589#Comment_117739589

It's not ridiculous.

Those were the exact same rules with animals entering the UK before Brexit.

And since Brexit the UK government placed NI inside those same EU rules.

Quelle surpise.

If you feel aggrieved by that, i'm not saying you shouldn't. Direct your grievance toward those responsible, in this case the UK government. I would not expect the EU however, to change the rules of it's SM to accomodate.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117746194#Comment_117746194

You are missing something. UK companies can set up in another region of the UK and have incredible access to the EU.

If this is managed correctly then it becomes republicans worst nightmare ie NI becomes a very attractive asset to UK.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117746231#Comment_117746231

You didn’t. I was referring to another poster. Apologies for including it in same reply

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117747001#Comment_117747001

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117747001#Comment_117747001

You might chat to your mates, but every opinion poll disagrees with you.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117747096#Comment_117747096

You paint a scenario that is both highly unlikely and highly humorous.

I think you are suggesting Scotland leaves the Uk. Then England leaves the Uk. Then we have the Uk of Wales and NI. Then wales decides to leave.

then I have no idea. Does it become the UK of NI 😂😂

KildareP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117749031#Comment_117749031

Remind me again why you want rid of the NIP...?

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117749451#Comment_117749451

I don’t. I just want rid of the bad bits. I just heard on radio the other day that several GB and ROI companies are researching bases in NI. Why wouldn’t they, it’s a no brainier.

SevenAte9

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117749031#Comment_117749031

So the NIP is a good thing? right....right??

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117749946#Comment_117749946

It will be when we get rid of all the petty checks etc

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117749031#Comment_117749031

But it's Unionism's nightmare. Once again the dichotomy. You are pretending all is hunky dory but political Unionism is 'ating' itself from within trying to find a way to accept where they are - where they have led themselves.

KildareP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117749935#Comment_117749935

But the "bad bits" are what makes it good for NI in your post.

If there are no Irish Sea checks, then NI will no longer need (nor will it even be possible for NI) to be in the EU SM&CU.

The border realistically ends up on the island of Ireland and the EU SM&CU stops there instead.

In order for this outcome to have happened, a breach of the NIP by the UK will have occurred meaning the TCA is suspended and all UK products destined for the EU will have anything from WTO tarriffs right up to punitive trade sanctions levied.

In such an event, not only is NI now arguably in a worse position (no access to the EU SM&CU anymore), but the rest of GB is locked out of being able to trade with the EU as well. How do you reckon Mr Johnson will sell that one?

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117750883#Comment_117750883

The Eu will, I believe, in due course agree to scrapping the long list of petty non-sensical checks. It’s inevitable, there just has to be a wee bit of time and some choreography so as it doesn’t look like they have caved in

KildareP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117750913#Comment_117750913

The only way the checks will be scrapped is if the UK agrees to align itself to SM&CU rules or the UK reneges on the NIP.

downcow, could you explain to us why the checks are there? Like what is their purpose?

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117750937#Comment_117750937

That’s a really good question.

a very small number of them are there to provide reassurance to the EU, and that’s fine. I have no idea, bar either beaurocracy, petty bloody mindedness or punishment for Uk, why the others like I give examples of recently are there. Could you explain?

Junkyard Tom

The EU would like to be rid of the UK problem so the idea that its punishing it is hilarious. The idiotic Tory/DUP Brexit is doing the punishing of the UK all by itself and its full effects have not yet set in.

Suckler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117751003#Comment_117751003

Completely incorrect and this has been explained numerous times.

This was the Brexit that the UK forced; The EU (or the Irish Government) didn't come up with a new list of "petty" lists or "punishment lists". They were the result of the UK's "Oven ready deal".

You consistently misrepresent the rules as petty etc. The UK government selected the route, these are the consequences but yet again your ire is completely misplaced.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117750913#Comment_117750913

Yes....just like all those other times during the negotiations that the EU caved. It'll be more, 'NEVER, NEVER, NEVER.....Okay' as the UK media tries to sell utilising existing easements within the Protocol as a win.

FrancieBrady

Easy to see what is going to happen here (bookmark this post) whatever happens with the Protocol belligerent Unionism is going to claim a win.

downcow is setting the ground to do the victory dance here. He'll just ignore all posts to the contrary. Same as they did with the GFA which after decades of hate and attempted sabotage of, is now a victory for Unionism. 😁

ArmaniJeanss

Thread had some purpose at the start and was quite interesting because the OP had nailed his colours to something definitive - a court case was being taken and (in his opinion) it would be won. Being a fast case, we knew that very quickly he would be proven right or wrong.

Now however, he has set himself up a 'no-lose' position. Either the EU will concede on the 'checks' (in which case the OP wins) or he can keep with saying that they will do so sometime in the future (he can't lose here, can never be proven wrong).

You really need to put some time scale on these claims dc, otherwise it's kinda pointless.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117750936#Comment_117750936

That’s you opinion. I don’t happen to agree. Time will tell.

what will you say if checks start disappearing? Eg if dogs don’t need rabies jabs?

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117751053#Comment_117751053

Well tell me for an example. Is doing away with the rabies jabs one of the existing easements that could be utilised?

scenario is that you and others will claim the Uk just used easements. So let’s list a few things up front that you think are definitely not easements that can be utilised, and the nod or when it does/does not happen, either one of us can admit we were wrong

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117755604#Comment_117755604

It's simple, Downcow.....rather than making a pointless list, should any changes be made we can go through the Protocol and point out whether existing easements were utilised.

What does your weird suggestion actually achieve? It isn't like the text of the Protocol isn't readily available to make this comparison should any changes be introduced.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117751839#Comment_117751839

Firstly the court case has a long way to run and I don’t recall saying definitively that anti protocol would win.

I have said a few times that I would expect dramatic changes to checks within two years.

maybe you can tell us when you think the Uk will end the grace period. We were told all hell was going to break loose because they unilaterally continued grace. Eu have backed out of the shock and awe court case and it’s been extended further.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117755616#Comment_117755616

You are just evidencing that it is not clear. Otherwise you could quite simply tell me whether there is an existing easement which can be utilised for the rabies jabs to be dropped.

if it is so clear just point us to the text on this one ?

Peregrinus

The "petty checks" start disappearing when the UK is willing to enter into agreed arrangement for that to happen. The mechanism for agreeing those arrangements already exists; it's built into the NIP protocol. But so far the UK has been reluctant to operate it.

Essentially the UK wants checks to disappear because, e.g. in the case of rabies, the UK as a matter of fact, currently rabies-free. But many parts of the world are, as a matter of fact, currently rabies-free; there are still movement controls on animals coming into the EU. The EU's position is that being currently rabies free is not enough; we need a mechanism for knowing that this animal, coming from the UK, is free of rabies. An animal which is coming immediately from the UK may previously have been in a third country, or may have come into contact in the UK with an animal from a third country. If the UK thinks it reasonable for the EU to admit animals without checking where they have been or what their rabies status is, the assumption has to be that the UK itself is willing to admit animals on that basis, so this isn't a fanciful concern. Hence, there need to be agreed arrangements, commitments, whereby the EU can be satisfied that an animal coming from the UK is rabies-free; they won't just assume it.

There were such arrangements until recently; the UK chose unilaterally to terminate them. The EU is open to agreeing replacement arrangements, but the UK apparently is not. The "petty checks" apply, therefore, because the UK chose for them to apply. When the UK chooses for them not to apply, their removal can be agreed. Downcow will present that as the EU backing down. The EU will smile quietly to itself.

KildareP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117755569#Comment_117755569

It's not really opinion when it is the fundamental basis on which the EU operates.

If/when checks start disappearing, I will look to see what changes were made to allow it.

The notion the EU will sacrifice its own rules to cater for the UK who don't want to sacrifice their own because "sovereignty" is nonsense.

If checks start disappearing, it will just be the UK signing up to certain things. The same as these extensions which are bizarrely seen as UK victories when it's just the UK agreeing to follow the EU rules for longer.

Let them have their fake victories. If downcow sees the future removal of checks as a UK win, great.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117756309#Comment_117756309

Let’s lift the pretence.

give me an example of checks currently imposed by NIP between GB and Uk that cannot be lifted, which have an impact on day to day life?

unless you are saying they can all be lifted by negotiation between Uk and Eu, which means we are not disagreeing and we can get rid of all the bad bits

l don’t need these victories that you are all trying to spin. We have had the big victory ie businesses in Uk and Eu are preparing to set up bases in ni to benifit from our advantageous post brexit position. Now we just need the silly stuff which impedes movement of goods around the Uk removed. That’s going to take a little time but will happen

when this all shakes out you will be wanting to unify with us to gain the financial benifits lol 😝

KildareP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117756378#Comment_117756378

The whole point of checks are to be proactive, not reactive. Imagine we had proactive checks for Covid way back when?

Rabies may well be irrelevant today between the EU and many global nations, not just the UK.

How can the EU be assurred it won't suddenly become relevant tomorrow? Next week? Next month?

How can the EU be sure that the UK is maintaining the same standards tomorrow on rabies checks into its territory that it does today?

How can the EU be sure the UK will inform it immediately upon detection of rabies within its territory?

The answer to all of the above is it can't, because the UK won't agree any commitment to maintain that same level of standards on checking for and managing prevention of rabies from non-EU countries and the UK is under no obligation to inform the EU of any outbreak should it occur.

Thus, the only way in which the EU can manage the risk of rabies is by specifically checking for it at its external border, which in the case of the island of Ireland, is in the Irish Sea between NI and GB.

You can sit and pick off lots of individual checks in isolation and dismiss what they are checking for as irrelevant because it isn't present either side of the checks right this moment, but that doesn't mean the checks themselves are irrelevant, absent any formal agreement from both sides to agreed shared standards.

Starting checks for rabies after an outbreak is already well established is closing the stable door after the horse has bolted (literally).

As for victories, well I don't think anyone in the EU will claim anything got to do with Brexit as a victory. It has been a massive distraction, a huge timesink and a large hit to businesses across Europe trying to adjust to an ever changing landscape because the UK keeps agreeing to things only to do an about turn before the ink has dried.

steddyeddy

Trade between the North and South has risen sharply in the wake of Brexit. This might actually benefit the island of Ireland, North and South.

The value of goods being imported from Northern Ireland to the Republic has jumped by 77 per cent since the UK left the EU at the start of the year, while the value of exports from the South to the North has risen by 43 per cent, according to new data from the Central Statistics Office (CSO).

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117762083#Comment_117762083

The growing interdependence that belligerent Unionism and partitionists have nightmares about.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117762083#Comment_117762083

Trade divergence. Specifically identified as a reason for triggering article 26

downcow

This thread discussed 11th night bonfires at length in a not very positive manner. I’m not surprised there is no mention of the 15th aug republican fires. They always outdo the worst of the loyalist fires with their bigotry and offence.

just interesting that it doesn’t upset people here to the same extent.

I am shocked 🙄

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117763361#Comment_117763361

If you want to have a discussion on them, then yes, it was disgusting what they had on them.

Personally, I believe that no side needs to have bonfires.

Are you trying to imply that nationalists have double standards? Maybe some do but the majority do not.

mariab21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117763361#Comment_117763361

Its disgraceful. A bunch of scumbags who built it and put the banners up

Certain parts of Derrys nationalist areas need to take a good look at the community areas in West Belfast with a dance night in Falls Park with 10,000 kids at resulting in fire brigade not having 1 call to a bonfire in the 15th.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117763361#Comment_117763361

The scale (in size and in number) of the 15th night bonfires makes them incomparable, Downcow. I've no problem saying I think any effigy or flag burning on them is vile, hateful and doesn't represent me....but they're not being discussed because most people don't give a sh*te about them.....the RTE doesn't do a full schedule of TV shows highlighting the occasion to bring it to most people's awareness; I'd imagine the majority on this thread genuinely don't know what you're talking about.

While saying that the handful of August 15th bonfires outdo the worst of 11th night fires is hyperbole of the highest order, I'll highlight that when actually commented on, the (handful of) bonfires were condemned without exception among the Nationalist political leadership, with even the likes of Gerry Kelly tweeting about how inappropriate it was. This stands in severe contrast with the ostrich act that goes on with the 11th night fires.

You'll notice there's also no one on here defending those bonfires, or trying to suggest they're family friendly days out like you do with the 11th?

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117763324#Comment_117763324

What part of Article 26 would justify one side or the other taking action currently?

ARTICLE 26

Import and export restrictions

1. A Party shall not adopt or maintain any prohibition or restriction on the importation of any good of the other Party or on the exportation or sale for export of any good destined for the territory of the other Party, except in accordance with Article XI of GATT 1994, including its Notes and Supplementary Provisions. To that end, Article XI of GATT 1994 and its Notes and Supplementary Provisions are incorporated into and made part of this Agreement, mutatis mutandisor of the TCA?

2. A Party shall not adopt or maintain:

(a) export and import price requirements, except as permitted in enforcement of countervailing and anti-dumping duty orders and undertakings; or

(b) import licensing conditioned on the fulfilment of a performance requirement

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117763432#Comment_117763432

Well they seem to be suggesting that a concert on the falls road where they chant ooh aah up the ra, is to be commended.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117763854#Comment_117763854

…although a GAA club near me will be running their annual event this weekend which will include such chants and worse, so I can understand why nationalists think it is commendable. I would be disgusted if Northern Ireland football supporters had any such event. Thankfully they are a little more inclusive.