Population of 5 million soon

topdecko

beerguts wrote: »

There was not a hint of racism in my post.

"Also how many of that increase is worthless travellers" - so not a hint of racism in the original post.... cool, no probs with that statement at all??

Population growth is needed to sustain our economic way of life. Population growth is a good thing. There seems to be an obsession with spongers and welfare payments. Having worked in the UK and seen first hand the brutal effects of an adversarial incompetent and inhumane welfare system - we are blessed to have the supports in place that we do here.

Greyfox

topdecko wrote: »

Charming... Current economic models demand good birth rate.

Wrong, they demand young tax payers which is not the same thing. We dont know yet how many of these births will be working tax payers or will they be social welfare lifers or emigrate. High birth rates are a bad thing

beerguts

topdecko wrote: »

"Also how many of that increase is worthless travellers" - so not a hint of racism in the original post.... cool, no probs with that statement at all??

Population growth is needed to sustain our economic way of life. Population growth is a good thing. There seems to be an obsession with spongers and welfare payments. Having worked in the UK and seen first hand the brutal effects of an adversarial incompetent and inhumane welfare system - we are blessed to have the supports in place that we do here.

First off traveller's are white Irish and there subculture is rancid. Exploding birth rates in these people that do not value education or general betterment plus see the state as something to be milked not contributed too are not needed.
Also automation and online retail will/is changing our economic modelling. Adding more and more people into the mix of less opportunities and resources is crazy and will put us at danger of social disillusionment into the future.

Mod: Have a month off the forum for your racism there

bubblypop

bubblypop wrote: »

We don't have too many people, we have a lack of infrastructure and governments who are centred towards cities.

Spot on.

We have the worst planning in the developed world.

For a country our size to have such a reliance on a particularly city/area is unpardonable.

whisky_galore

Cal4567 wrote: »

No, it doesn't but I do feel we are tending towards EU norms in many areas. This is one of them. We've been fairly compliant up to now on change but you can't get away from the perception if you cannot get work/ a home/ an operation / then it might be because there are more of us here now.

Like I referred to above, it is hard to tell the future. I thought we were increasing population numbers in spades but Covid has put a stop to that. Not sure how the next decade is going to work out.

Another million or so fills me with horror. We can't have more one off housing and urban sprawl.

Again. Where are these people supposed to live esp in urban areas with rack renting, vulture funds grabbing apartments and serial objections to housing?
What are they supposed to work at out in the wildernesses of East Mayo or West Donegal?
Are they all to be on the scratch or what?

Necro

I've already given beerguts a month long holiday for their "contributions" to the thread, can we avoid the generalisations please or this thread will be locked

Wibbs

topdecko wrote: »

Charming... Current economic models demand good birth rate.

And it's not a sustainable economic model and one that benefits a minority of people. It's certainly not sustainable as far as the environment goes. More people = more environmental damage. Never mind a huge shift in the form of automation coming down the line and yes it is different this time. For a start in the past technology and automation replaced muscle power, this is and will replace brain power. And how it will affect society and jobs is still up in the air. IE it's far easier to replace a doctor with AI than it is to replace a nurse.

Ireland in an envious position as regards other countries where birth rates are in freefall - Greece, Italy etc and they are banjaxed in terms of elderly care etc.

And they will have to adjust. We all will. Pushing population growth can't last and isn't sustainable and marks the economic theory behind it as beyond daft.

Population density in Ireland ranks 39th in Europe and so we have some way to go before we can complain about too many people here.

Rushing to fill up this country is hardly wise.

your statement is pretty shocking tbh - we don't need another thread derailed by pointless racism.

The plain fact is some demographics are more likely to be net negatives, economically and socially than others. It's not a comfortable fact and racism is to blame for much of it, but it is a fact and a consistent one. We should strive to import potential positives not potential negatives, we have enough of our homegrown of the latter, like any society.

There seems to be an obsession with spongers and welfare payments. Having worked in the UK and seen first hand the brutal effects of an adversarial incompetent and inhumane welfare system - we are blessed to have the supports in place that we do here.

Oh I agree and would actually increase such supports in a few areas. However it needs a radical overhaul because of serious inefficiencies and waste in the system and sadly I don't have much confidence in Irish politics and other vested interests to make such a change.

Wibbs

bubblypop wrote: »

We don't have too many people, we have a lack of infrastructure and governments who are centred towards cities.

People are centred towards cities. The overwhelming trend in the western world has been a move from the rural to the urban. This has happened throughout history when complex societies arise and become more complex. Cities are where people naturally tend to drift towards and no amount of planning will change that too radically. Oh we can try and it has been tried, but it's akin to city planners looking at a green area with a worn path in the dirt where people choose to walk and putting down an expensive path somewhere else because it looks better, but that nobody actually uses.

topdecko

Agree with the above points but humans have babies. Have been doing so since the beginning of mankind and will continue to do so even if there is a climate change apocalypse. We need to recalibrate our relationship with nature and also to look at our use of fossil fuels.......however this is unlikely to happen - look at Australia - will be uninhabitable in a decade and yet they are still removing millions of tonnes of coal.
Certain demographics within society are challenging but don't buy into social cohesion but the only way forward is to leave the door open and afford opportunities in education, workforce etc. Beerguts holiday is due to pretty entrenched opinions which are probably representative of a good number of people... feels good to vent behind a keyboard but brings little to the table in terms of future societal harmony. People have a right to exist irregardless of what group they belong to

Wibbs

topdecko wrote: »

Agree with the above points but humans have babies. Have been doing so since the beginning of mankind and will continue to do so even if there is a climate change apocalypse.

Actually humans have fewer babies the more advanced and wealthy a society becomes. That's why Europe has a low birth rate, Africa has a much higher one. So when people migrate from less wealthy and advanced societies the higher birthrates only sustain themselves for a generation or so. And then you need to import more people. Rinse and repeat. Again it's unsustainable.

Except in the populations that lay more outside the economy of the nations. Essentially the poor and uneducated have more babies, the rich and educated fewer.

We need to recalibrate our relationship with nature and also to look at our use of fossil fuels.......however this is unlikely to happen - look at Australia - will be uninhabitable in a decade and yet they are still removing millions of tonnes of coal.

If the world population halved tomorrow and we did nothing about our use of fossil fuels the environment would be better off. Fewer people need fewer resources. The single best thing someone can do for the environment is to have one less child.

Certain demographics within society are challenging but don't buy into social cohesion but the only way forward is to leave the door open and afford opportunities in education, workforce etc.

Sounds great in theory, but evidence and experience shows it doesn't work in practice. Hope and understandably well meaning notions don't trump human nature, and they never have.

Beerguts holiday is due to pretty entrenched opinions which are probably representative of a good number of people...

and tend to become more representative and entrenched over time in demographically changing societies. Again human nature.

feels good to vent behind a keyboard but brings little to the table in terms of future societal harmony. People have a right to exist irregardless of what group they belong to

They certainly do, but that means little as far as the practicalities of societies go. It's empty rhetoric.

sebdavis

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

About 2 million too many if you ask me

If the famine didn't happen we would have a population of 20+million

Cyclepath

sebdavis wrote: »

If the famine didn't happen we would have a population of 20+million

That would be unbearable... If you've spent time in the Netherlands and you're an introvert like me, you literally can't get away from people. You get traffic jams on forest paths. I had to cross the border into Germany to find some wilderness that wasn't crammed with other people!

I can see the need to replace an ageing population, but I can't see a justification for infinite and uncontrolled expansion.

sebdavis

Cyclepath wrote: »

That would be unbearable... If you've spent time in the Netherlands and you're an introvert like me, you literally can't get away from people. You get traffic jams on forest paths. I had to cross the border into Germany to find some wilderness that wasn't crammed with other people!

I can see the need to replace an ageing population, but I can't see a justification for infinite and uncontrolled expansion.

I doubt either me or you will see it but at the way things are going Ireland will end up with 20+million people in the future. All those states of 3-4 bed semis will have to be knocked down then to replace with high rise apartments

Strumms

Greyfox wrote: »

Wrong, they demand young tax payers which is not the same thing. We dont know yet how many of these births will be working tax payers or will they be social welfare lifers or emigrate. High birth rates are a bad thing

Social welfare lifers is a big concern but so is with more people trying to get access to other services...

Hospital/GP... waiting lists are colossal as it is. I’ve found this to my cost...Even my gp, from booking the next available appointment to seeing him can take a week. I’ve waited more then one year for tests in the Mater. 14 months and had to get my GP to write an email to try hurry them along... I eventually got a cancellation so after 14 months, not a sight of an actual ‘scheduled ‘ appointment.

According to the HSE, we are going to need an ‘additional’ 1200 GPs over the next decade. There is a shortage now.

Hire and train ? Ok, but where do we find the money to hire, train, pay GPs ? If X % of their patients are recent arrivals who are in receipt of medical cards from the get go ?

By 2051 I’m reading, the expected population of this country could be expected to grow to be 6.7 million.. that is according to the CSO.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/population-could-grow-to-6-7m-by-2051-says-cso-1.3537977

If the bulk of the people increasing our population are requiring x amount of help...social welfare, medical, housing, public transport, we’ve zero chance of being able to pay for it, zero chance....

We need some sort of mechanism to control our borders.

whisky_galore

sebdavis wrote: »

If the famine didn't happen we would have a population of 20+million

Unlikely, it would have come to a point where constant land sub division wouldn't have worked to feed people adequately. With no welfare and no industry to speak of it would be emigrate or starve anyway.

biko

Strumms wrote: »

By 2051 I’m reading, the expected population of this country could be expected to grow to be 6.7 million.. that is according to the CSO.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/population-could-grow-to-6-7m-by-2051-says-cso-1.3537977

At the higher end of the estimate the number of people in the country would rise by 23 per cent, more than five times the EU average.

The lower estimate would represent a 12 per cent increase, more than three times the EU average.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/irelands-population-could-surge-by-20-t6bt8wnpf

munchkin_utd

biko wrote: »

At the higher end of the estimate the number of people in the country would rise by 23 per cent, more than five times the EU average.

The lower estimate would represent a 12 per cent increase, more than three times the EU average.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/irelands-population-could-surge-by-20-t6bt8wnpf

it'll be interesting to see how that all pans out when ireland's economy isnt being artifically boosted by 100s of billions of French and German Euros a year being diverted through it in a massive international tax dodge

yea, they are in Ireland for the ninja banking and call centre skills (me hole)

sebdavis

whisky_galore wrote: »

Unlikely, it would have come to a point where constant land sub division wouldn't have worked to feed people adequately. With no welfare and no industry to speak of it would be emigrate or starve anyway.

Hard to know, all estimates. Lets just agree if the famine didn't happen the population would be a lot higher

_Kaiser_

Strumms wrote: »

We need some sort of mechanism to control our borders.

Absolutely this.

As you have so ably pointed out, we have more than enough problems and issues as it is that we are already failing to address with our current population levels and resources, without adding more of the former and increasing pressure of the latter.

This is doubly true when we consider that the "strategy" being pursued at the moment is to encourage mass immigration of primarily people with minimal skills with the promise of welfare goodies for life on arrival.

sebdavis

munchkin_utd wrote: »

it'll be interesting to see how that all pans out when ireland's economy isnt being artifically boosted by 100s of billions of French and German Euros a year being diverted through it in a massive international tax dodge

yea, they are in Ireland for the ninja banking and call centre skills (me hole)

Ireland is not a "tax dodge". The loop holes that existed many years ago are closed so companies pay the tax they are supposed to.
How many call centres are left in Ireland? majority are long gone now to India. You have some large digital sales hubs like Dell etc

sebdavis

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Absolutely this.

As you have so ably pointed out, we have more than enough problems and issues as it is that we are already failing to address with our current population levels and resources, without adding more of the former and increasing pressure of the latter.

This is doubly true when we consider that the "strategy" being pursued at the moment is to encourage mass immigration of primarily people with minimal skills with the promise of welfare goodies for life on arrival.

We are in the EU, we cannot stop people coming if they want. It was pointed out on another forum about a lady from Poland was XX years on the housing waiting list and was given a new house. More or less this woman arrived the day Poland joined the EU and sat on waiting list since. We cannot stop this.

Also with the UK out of the EU now Ireland is becoming a more & more attractive option to Eastern Europeans who just need to pay to get here and then we will look after them.

Mimon

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Absolutely this.

As you have so ably pointed out, we have more than enough problems and issues as it is that we are already failing to address with our current population levels and resources, without adding more of the former and increasing pressure of the latter.

This is doubly true when we consider that the "strategy" being pursued at the moment is to encourage mass immigration of primarily people with minimal skills with the promise of welfare goodies for life on arrival.

Immigrants on average contribute more economically than Irish people so your reasoning makes no senses whatsoever.

ThunbergsAreGo

Mimon wrote: »

Immigrants on average contribute more economically than Irish people so your reasoning makes no senses whatsoever.

EU immigrants do

Mimon

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

EU immigrants do

A lot of the moaning and bellyaching on this thread was about EU immigrants.

Where do you have the figure about non EU citizens anyway? Where I work all non EU citizens are highly paid engineers etc contributing huge amounts to revenue.

Even the Pakistani lads who work in garages etc work hard.

A lot of moaning based on little data to back it up on here.

dxhound2005

Without migration the projections make the population of the EU 219 million in 2100 down from 447 million now. Even with migration the projection is a fall to 416 million . Italy will see one of the biggest reductions.

https://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/submitViewTableAction.do

biko

Hungary have incentives to boost their population.
Is this something Ireland should do too?

dxhound2005

biko wrote: »

Hungary have incentives to boost their population.
Is this some Ireland should do too?

We did that in 1944 with the introduction of Children's Allowance. From memory it was paid only when a claimant had three children, nothing for the first two.

ThunbergsAreGo

Mimon wrote: »

A lot of the moaning and bellyaching on this thread was about EU immigrants.

Where do you have the figure about non EU citizens anyway? Where I work all non EU citizens are highly paid engineers etc contributing huge amounts to revenue.

Even the Pakistani lads who work in garages etc work hard.

A lot of moaning based on little data to back it up on here.

Well we could deport EU citizens that have been on welfare for a large amount of time and could be seen as welfare tourists, as we are allowed to by law. But that might not play internationally.

As for non EU, we could make it skills based, so the highly skilled engineers you work with (and so do I) are encouraged to come here and fill needs.

But those that do not qualify are deported or not allowed in in an efficient manner.

Granting amnesty to 17k illegal immigrants, and proposing own door accommodation after 4 months, isn't going to see a rise in engineers coming here.

And I am not anti immigrant at all, I work with many and they are for the most part good hard working people (same as Ireland). My issues are with the cack handed, push problems down the road approach our country takes to it, whereby they seem to do anything they can to not make hard decisions to be seen as "bad" by the media/Twitter mob

Strumms

If I go to Albertini's Italian restaurant for example...

I’m paying money, I want prompt and friendly service, excellent food and an all round positive experience, ie. value and bang for my buck.

As Irish citizens we pay, PRSI PAYE and VAT...in the main. I want we get bang for our buck from what we pay... here too... I want to see hospital waiting lists reasonable, I want to see our transport infrastructure fit for purpose, I want rehabilitative hospital places funded, i want housing waiting lists cut and priority given to Irish tax payers who are funding those builds...I want Irish citizens who pay for all the above to be the primary benefactors..

If I hand over 200 euros for groceries in Tesco, I expect the right change and to leave with everything I put in my basket...I dont want my change to be given away or a percentage of my purchases to be handed to others.

ShatterAlan

whisky_galore wrote: »

Does a country really have to be populated according to EU norms?
How are all these people supposed to support themselves? More one off housing and urban sprawl isn't that great as far as the environment is concerned.

One could argue that the whole COVID thing will help tackle urban sprawl. For over a year now practivally everyone has been working remotely and the planet hasn't been plunged into the dark ages.


If millions of people can work remotely then the populations of urban centres would fall dramatically. Why live in, and work from, an overpriced shoe-box in the city centre when you can live in, and work from, a nice house with some trees and stuff up in the mountains somewhere for a fraction of the cost.