The annual ASTI Easter strike threat

khalessi

teachinggal123 wrote: »

I have read back and I don't see your answer to blanch152's points.

NOt to worry.

teachinggal123

khalessi wrote: »

NOt to worry.

???

With respect, I don't see any answer from you. Or any support of the figures you quoted when it was pointed out these figures were flawed. Unless you call shouting 'teacher bashing' from 'bitter people' an answer. Is that what you mean when you say you've answered the questions?

Anyway, never mind. Have a great day and stay safe.

Lillyfae

khalessi wrote: »

NOt to worry.

Khalessi, you are conflating a lot, on any thread where there are any mention of teachers. Any evidence of teachers in the UK having long Covid needs to be put in the context of the UKs Covid strategy in the first place, which for a long time was non existent. Additionally, Covid leave for teachers in Ireland does not equate to teachers having Covid.

You are a primary school teacher, is that correct? How can you be taking a thread on the ASTI proposing strike so personally?

Claw Hammer

khalessi wrote: »

Sure weren't they kite flying this weekend on vaccinating 18-30 year olds before 30-50year olds to guage public opinion. The only evidence required was they got the schools reopened then reneged on an agreement.

I would have no problem with that if they had put in other safety measures but they didn't as they dislike spending money on education. Nearly killed them to have to pay for soap in August last year.

The grant they provided became temporary on 23rd December (Christmas Holidays) and was decreased by 40%. This has not been reversed depsite knowledge of the B117 variant and others heading this way. This has resulted in not being able to afford masks for staff. They were asked to provide masks, which would have meant reversing the budget cut but they didnt.

Change the deal but ensure schools are safe, this is the issue. Antigen testing like UK was asked for, masks were asked for and nothing, it is a joke. The goal is to get to the holidays without spending money on schools.

You have them going on about catch up over the summer but meanwhile they have not improved numbers of SNAs or SET, which would help long term not just for holidays. They announced new school places in COrk ast week after a campaign for children wih additional needs only for it to be discovered the land offered was already sanctioned as a permanent location for another school.

They really havent a clue, it is all soundbites.

None of that justifies giving priority to teachers. If teachers have a "f them " attitude how can they expect anyone to pay attention to their crocodile teachers.
Teachers might think they are big and important, which they may be but they should try and go outside the school gates sometime and see how big the world is and appreciate that they are not big and important but small fry.

blanch152

khalessi wrote: »

Ad nauseaum we have threads going back years from bitter people slagging off teachers but sure what can you do. If they threaten strike for safety they are wrong but it is ok that Doctors threaten strike for pay in pandemic. Yeah we get the double standard.

Unless you can point directly to me slagging off teachers (rather than constructive or fact-based criticism) or my support for striking doctors, I am not sure how relevant this whataboutery point is.

The facts are that

(1) NPHET have studied this and found that schools are relatively safe environments, especially compared to meat factories, retail and other workplaces.

(2) The government has funded extensive safety measures in schools

(3) Teachers get Covid leave which none of those mentioned in point (1) get.

(4) Teachers over 60 and who are pregnant can work remotely, which those in point (1) and truck drivers etc. don't

(5) Teachers will have 2/3 months holidays and recovery time this summer which all others don't.

Everyone is suffering with Covid, every profession has its challenges, but in terms of being looked after, teachers have been right at the top of the queue.

khalessi

Claw Hammer wrote: »

None of that justifies giving priority to teachers. If teachers have a "f them " attitude how can they expect anyone to pay attention to their crocodile teachers.
Teachers might think they are big and important, which they may be but they should try and go outside the school gates sometime and see how big the world is and appreciate that they are not big and important but small fry.

It only seems to be on threads like these that people think teachers are big and important and the ones putting that suggestion forward are never the teachers. Interesting though.

blanch152

khalessi wrote: »

It only seems to be on threads like these that people think teachers are big and important and the ones putting that suggestion forward are never the teachers. Interesting though.

Like everyone else looking at themselves, wouldn't teachers be the ones least well-qualified to comment on the issue in that there is an inherent bias?

Bobtheman

Even if they kept to essential workers it would have bee. Well into May by time they reached teachers.
Secondary schools close June.
TBH I'm glad there is a delay. Sorts out issues.
However the government did fxxx up by switching tack.
Did data suddenly become available? I doubt it.
In the end lots of data on schools being buried. So let's plod on.

Treppen

joe40 wrote: »

I agree there most likely won't be a strike, but is it not worrying that the Unions would be so out of touch with majority of their members.

You still don't realise how unions work.

Anyone can bring up any issue. It's not for Union leaders to decide they are going to ignore it.

Treppen

blanch152 wrote: »

Like everyone else looking at themselves, wouldn't teachers be the ones least well-qualified to comment on the issue in that there is an inherent bias?

You could say the same about carers seeking vaccination priority... Ah sure they just have inherent bias so shouldn't be commenting.

Locotastic

Treppen wrote: »

You still don't realise how unions work.

Anyone can bring up any issue. It's not for Union leaders to decide they are going to ignore it.

But it is up to union leaders how they approach it and put forward their case, at which they failed miserably.

Pringles123

blanch152 wrote: »

Unless you can point directly to me slagging off teachers (rather than constructive or fact-based criticism) or my support for striking doctors, I am not sure how relevant this whataboutery point is.

The facts are that

(1) NPHET have studied this and found that schools are relatively safe environments, especially compared to meat factories, retail and other workplaces.

(2) The government has funded extensive safety measures in schools

(3) Teachers get Covid leave which none of those mentioned in point (1) get.

(4) Teachers over 60 and who are pregnant can work remotely, which those in point (1) and truck drivers etc. don't

(5) Teachers will have 2/3 months holidays and recovery time this summer which all others don't.

Everyone is suffering with Covid, every profession has its challenges, but in terms of being looked after, teachers have been right at the top of the queue.

A lot of the above are facts but Id disagree with statement 2 here. They have funded safety measures but i would definitely not call it extensive, if anything it has been sub par. You know there is problems when parents themselves have to choose between sending their kids to school and their families safety. I think every teacher on here knows of children who have stayed home at different stages throughout the year because of the situation in schools. I know of some who chose to come on certain days every week just to reduce the exposure. These things are happening everyday to families of both students and teachers and a lot of people have no regard for the difficulties of the situation for all. Teachers have been compared to other jobs a lot, many of them private sector. Just remember that when a teacher is absent, it impacts hundreds of students education in the subject and this doesn't happen in any other job!

As for the covid leave, I cant help but feel this is more so an argument between differences between public and private sector rather than just comparing teachers to private sector. I could be wrong here as I am sure there is some public sector jobs with no covid leave but broadly speaking.

Bobtheman

blanch152 wrote: »

Unless you can point directly to me slagging off teachers (rather than constructive or fact-based criticism) or my support for striking doctors, I am not sure how relevant this whataboutery point is.

The facts are that

(1) NPHET have studied this and found that schools are relatively safe environments, especially compared to meat factories, retail and other workplaces.

(2) The government has funded extensive safety measures in schools

(3) Teachers get Covid leave which none of those mentioned in point (1) get.

(4) Teachers over 60 and who are pregnant can work remotely, which those in point (1) and truck drivers etc. don't

(5) Teachers will have 2/3 months holidays and recovery time this summer which all others don't.

Everyone is suffering with Covid, every profession has its challenges, but in terms of being looked after, teachers have been right at the top of the queue.

Mother of God - you'd be a fool to believe school stats. Amazingly any kid getting covid is traced back to the community. Amazingly covid stops at the school gates.
Only when half a class gets it does the department face the inevitable.
As to being looked after? With what exactly? ****e masks? Extra money for heating? The windows are open all year.

blanch152

Treppen wrote: »

You could say the same about carers seeking vaccination priority... Ah sure they just have inherent bias so shouldn't be commenting.

Yes, I could, and I would say the same thing.

blanch152

Pringles123 wrote: »

A lot of the above are facts but Id disagree with statement 2 here. They have funded safety measures but i would definitely not call it extensive, if anything it has been sub par. You know there is problems when parents themselves have to choose between sending their kids to school and their families safety. I think every teacher on here knows of children who have stayed home at different stages throughout the year because of the situation in schools. I know of some who chose to come on certain days every week just to reduce the exposure. These things are happening everyday to families of both students and teachers and a lot of people have no regard for the difficulties of the situation for all. Teachers have been compared to other jobs a lot, many of them private sector. Just remember that when a teacher is absent, it impacts hundreds of students education in the subject and this doesn't happen in any other job!

As for the covid leave, I cant help but feel this is more so an argument between differences between public and private sector rather than just comparing teachers to private sector. I could be wrong here as I am sure there is some public sector jobs with no covid leave but broadly speaking.

Education is the only public sector allowing pregnant women and those over 60 to work remotely. Doesn't happen anywhere else - local authority workmen, health sector etc. don't allow it.

It is another privilege afforded to teachers.

square ball

blanch152 wrote: »

Education is the only public sector allowing pregnant women and those over 60 to work remotely. Doesn't happen anywhere else - local authority workmen, health sector etc. don't allow it.

It is another privilege afforded to teachers.

That's not true, pregnant women in most places encouraged to work from home and I don't know of any pregnant women in the public service that were working from the office/hospital/etc.

Very few teachers over 60 actually in the classroom. Most teachers that are genuinely vulnerable are off on Covid leave or working remotely.

I know of a good few people that got work as subs for the year replacing people off because they have underlying issues/pregnancy/etc. Just because people are on Covid leave doesn't mean they have tested positive.

If a teacher is not happy with teaching in a classroom there is always the opportunity to take a career break and go back to your job when this blows over.

Plenty of the rest of us were dealing with the public from the start of the pandemic all the way through and while we all bitched and moaned we got on with it without threatening industrial action.

blanch152

square ball wrote: »

That's not true, pregnant women in most places encouraged to work from home and I don't know of any pregnant women in the public service that were working from the office/hospital/etc.

Very few teachers over 60 actually in the classroom. Most teachers that are genuinely vulnerable are off on Covid leave or working remotely.

I know of a good few people that got work as subs for the year replacing people off because they have underlying issues/pregnancy/etc. Just because people are on Covid leave doesn't mean they have tested positive.

If a teacher is not happy with teaching in a classroom there is always the opportunity to take a career break and go back to your job when this blows over.

Plenty of the rest of us were dealing with the public from the start of the pandemic all the way through and while we all bitched and moaned we got on with it without threatening industrial action.

The general point that teachers have been well-looked after stands. In fact, it is difficult to argue in favour of vaccinating teachers given how few of the vulnerable teachers are actually working in the classroom.

I agree with you on the last point in particular.

khalessi

square ball wrote: »

Plenty of the rest of us were dealing with the public from the start of the pandemic all the way through and while we all bitched and moaned we got on with it without threatening industrial action.

Doctors threatened industrial action in December for January for a pay increase, but sure dont let facts stand in the way

Claw Hammer

square ball wrote: »

Very few teachers over 60 actually in the classroom. .

Because they have retired on a big fat pension years before.

Claw Hammer

khalessi wrote: »

It only seems to be on threads like these that people think teachers are big and important and the ones putting that suggestion forward are never the teachers. Interesting though.

No one said that people think teachers are big and important, quite the opposite. What was said was that teachers think thbey are big and important. Quite a different thing entirely. Not surprising that it is the teachers who fail to read posts properly, comprehend them and make an intelligent response.

square ball

khalessi wrote: »

Doctors threatened industrial action in December for January for a pay increase, but sure dont let facts stand in the way

Some Public Health Doctors voted for industrial action due to an ongoing issue which they had been trying to resolve with the Government since 2019. They had threatened to escalate industrial action in 2019.

https://www.thejournal.ie/consultants-and-doctors-vote-for-industrial-action-4938655-Dec2019/

They voted for industrial action in December but called off the strike because of the escalation in Covid cases.

Many of them also worked for over 9 months in direct contact with Covid positive patients on many cases without any vaccine.

Hardly the same as ASTI demanding priority in the vaccinations over the rest of the population.

endacl

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Because they have retired on a big fat pension years before.

Anybody taking advantage of early retirement did so with an actuarially reduced pension.

Claw Hammer

endacl wrote: »

Anybody taking advantage of early retirement did so with an actuarially reduced pension.

I notice you didn't deny it was a big fat pension, even if actuarially reduced. Teachers can buy years of service as well on top of those were employed for so they don't lose much by retiring early.

briangriffin

Claw Hammer wrote: »

I notice you didn't deny it was a big fat pension, even if actuarially reduced. Teachers can buy years of service as well on top of those were employed for so they don't lose much by retiring early.

Early retirement
Big fat pensions where they can "buy years"
Working only half days
Weeks and months of holidays on end
Can't be fired
Lazy and incompetent
Militant Unions
Did I miss anything??

astrofool

briangriffin wrote: »

Early retirement
Big fat pensions where they can "buy years"
Working only half days
Weeks and months of holidays on end
Can't be fired
Lazy and incompetent
Militant Unions
Did I miss anything??

If you're compiling a list:

Sense of entitlement
Resistant to any and all change to work practices
A select few will steal vaccines from hospital patients

I'm sure others can add more for your list, what do you mean to do with it?

blanch152

endacl wrote: »

Anybody taking advantage of early retirement did so with an actuarially reduced pension.

Not true.

https://www.education.ie/en/Education-Staff/Services/Retirement-Pensions/FAQ-for-Teachers-in-Primary-Schools.pdf

"Where a teacher is not a New Entrant and has a minimum of 2 years’
pensionable service on retirement, benefits are payable to him or her –
 at the end of the school year in which age 65 years is reached,
(on compulsory retirement), or
 at 60 years of age, or
 at 55 years of age provided that the teacher has at least 35 years actual
pensionable service. A period shorter than the 35 year requirement
may be permitted having regard to the duration of the teacher’s training
course completed before entering the profession. "

Under that third bullet point, when retiring at 55, pension is paid immediately, is not actuarily reduced and is based on actual service. This facility is not available to public servants generally, though some smaller groups (gardai, prison officers) have other such terms.

Claw Hammer

briangriffin wrote: »

Early retirement
Big fat pensions where they can "buy years"
Working only half days
Weeks and months of holidays on end
Can't be fired
Lazy and incompetent
Militant Unions
Did I miss anything??

Yes. "Working only half days" should read "attend only half days".

briangriffin

astrofool wrote: »

If you're compiling a list:

Sense of entitlement
Resistant to any and all change to work practices
A select few will steal vaccines from hospital patients

I'm sure others can add more for your list, what do you mean to do with it?

Good stuff Il add those

Early retirement which is not actuarially reduced nice one so they can retire at 55 on full pension
Big fat pensions where they can "buy years"
Working only half days edit "attend only half days"
Weeks and months of holidays on end
Can't be fired
Lazy and incompetent
Militant Unions

Sense of entitlement (presumably that's beyond vaccines too)
Resistant to any and all change to work practices
Steal vaccines from hospital patients

Anything else??

Treppen

blanch152 wrote: »

The general point that teachers have been well-looked after stands. In fact, it is difficult to argue in favour of vaccinating teachers given how few of the vulnerable teachers are actually working in the classroom.

I agree with you on the last point in particular.

Is that going by your own experience in your school?

briangriffin

blanch152 wrote: »

Like everyone else looking at themselves, wouldn't teachers be the ones least well-qualified to comment on the issue in that there is an inherent bias?

The irony of that.