The annual ASTI Easter strike threat

blanch152

khalessi wrote: »

Ageed as I said elsewhere a badly put message.

Tbf the backlash against teachers has been there for years, this was just another excuse for those who have it as a hobby.

This time the teachers have brought it on themselves.

SNAs are more vulnerable than teachers, yet I don't hear the teacher unions saying that they should get it before them. Teachers believe that they are somehow special and different, but that is not the case.

endacl

blanch152 wrote: »

This time the teachers have brought it on themselves.

SNAs are more vulnerable than teachers, yet I don't hear the teacher unions saying that they should get it before them. Teachers believe that they are somehow special and different, but that is not the case.

SNAs aren’t members of the teachers unions. Why would the unions represent them?

khalessi

FileNotFound wrote: »

Never mind the threads the messge in public is unions demand vaccines now, thats the message the unions seem to be peddling.

Thats all lovely if you just take the view of one group and ignore the more important to vaccinate groups.

Also the idea that adverse effects should be heavily considered when hospital staff were able to get on with it seems a bit shallow.

The fact is the data and science supports the Gov position, getting the shot by August (Isn't that when 86% or so of adults will have had a shot) will have most teachers covered bar the very young staff.

Age based if it stays on track seems to cover the bases, and keeps more people alive.

Isn't that the whole point?

You missed the question about enhanced safety measures in schools with your rant

So you are happy to pedal incorrect information even when correct info given to you, interesting.

HCWs, had to get unions involved to get imprived ppe. Secondary schools that were closed were sending them goggles normally used in science rooms. Schools in Cork wer eusing 3d machines to make visors for HCWS last MArch April 2020. Because of this Gov finally stepped down and got them improved PPe. So they didnt just get on with it, they had to fight for ppe, being a nurse I keept an eye on that situation.

Gardai met with gov re vaccines and stated it was a gov decision no Nphet re science. Gov ****ed up on lists and went age, which is fine if they protect schools which they are refusing to do.

khalessi

blanch152 wrote: »

This time the teachers have brought it on themselves.

SNAs are more vulnerable than teachers, yet I don't hear the teacher unions saying that they should get it before them. Teachers believe that they are somehow special and different, but that is not the case.

That would be because the unions support FORSA the SNA union, and unions are calling for all school staff not just teachers but you know that as it has been said to you many times on the other thread including by SNAs on that thread too. Teachers know how closely SNAs work with students and how they carry out the hygiene needs of many students both in mainstream and special schools. We have said a few times on the other threads too that you are on.

FileNotFound

khalessi wrote: »

You missed the question about enhanced safety measures in schools with your rant

So you are happy to pedal incorrect information even when correct info given to you, interesting.

HCWs, had to get unions involved to get imprived ppe. Secondary schools that were closed were sending them goggles normally used in science rooms. Schools in Cork wer eusing 3d machines to make visors for HCWS last MArch April 2020. Because of this Gov finally stepped down and got them improved PPe. So they didnt just get on with it, they had to fight for ppe, being a nurse I keept an eye on that situation.

Gardai met with gov re vaccines and stated it was a gov decision no Nphet re science. Gov ****ed up on lists and went age, which is fine if they protect schools which they are refusing to do.

It wasn't a rant, it was a fairly standard reply.

The world had a shortage of PPE last year around March and April, it was well documented. Getting what was available to those in healthcare settings was the right call no? If there wasn't additional PPE available that was a reality of the strange time we found ourselves in. Not sure how this applies to the topic we are discussing, seems you may be the one ranting now.

I was making a point that the public in general are not on boards.ie, thus the poor messaging from unions is the only message most including myself tend to hear. And that message comes over as Teachers first and now.

The list was a chaotic mess indeed and now its a simple streamlined age based rollout that can be effective. And should it work as planned over 80% of adults and any other at risks will have had a shot before end of August when schools return.

Based on that only very low risk younger teachers may be outstanding, and the potential impact in teachers and students homes due to any spread has been negated. Any enhanced measures would be welcome indeed, but are these going to have a real impact if the vaccinations have gone to plan?

The plan seems pretty sound assuming the targets can be hit.

Triangle

khalessi wrote: »

You missed the question about enhanced safety measures in schools with your rant

So you are happy to pedal incorrect information even when correct info given to you, interesting.

HCWs, had to get unions involved to get imprived ppe. Secondary schools that were closed were sending them goggles normally used in science rooms. Schools in Cork wer eusing 3d machines to make visors for HCWS last MArch April 2020. Because of this Gov finally stepped down and got them improved PPe. So they didnt just get on with it, they had to fight for ppe, being a nurse I keept an eye on that situation.

Gardai met with gov re vaccines and stated it was a gov decision no Nphet re science. Gov ****ed up on lists and went age, which is fine if they protect schools which they are refusing to do.

You talk about a rant then come up with this?

1) last match/April there was no PPE. The world was fighting over orders for it. I know numerous groups of people making masks for people. This wasn't a government issue - it was a worldwide shortage.

2) as has been said numerous times on this thread, with the increased supply of vaccine now, it would slow down the rollout if they did it by occupation. It's also more medically sound to do it by age. This change came about because of the increase in vaccine numbers.

3) protecting the most at risk is a NIAC call and done without bias/politics. It's sound science as opposed to emotional waffle some come up with.

JimmyVik

blanch152 wrote: »

This time the teachers have brought it on themselves.

SNAs are more vulnerable than teachers, yet I don't hear the teacher unions saying that they should get it before them. Teachers believe that they are somehow special and different, but that is not the case.

I heard one of the union reps on the news the other night say exactly that.
SNAs should be put right to the top of the queue whether teachers get vaccinated or not, because of the close contact.

khalessi

FileNotFound wrote: »

It wasn't a rant, it was a fairly standard reply.

The world had a shortage of PPE last year around March and April, it was well documented. Getting what was available to those in healthcare settings was the right call no? If there wasn't additional PPE available that was a reality of the strange time we found ourselves in. Not sure how this applies to the topic we are discussing, seems you may be the one ranting now.

I was making a point that the public in general are not on boards.ie, thus the poor messaging from unions is the only message most including myself tend to hear. And that message comes over as Teachers first and now.

The list was a chaotic mess indeed and now its a simple streamlined age based rollout that can be effective. And should it work as planned over 80% of adults and any other at risks will have had a shot before end of August when schools return.

Based on that only very low risk younger teachers may be outstanding, and the potential impact in teachers and students homes due to any spread has been negated. Any enhanced measures would be welcome indeed, but are these going to have a real impact if the vaccinations have gone to plan?

The plan seems pretty sound assuming the targets can be hit.

Yes the world did have a shortage, but the government could have said oh we will get it to you when available but didn't. Instead the unions had to become involved and as a nurse I dont think it should have got to the stage that the nursing or medical unions had to get involved in order to ensure HCWS got proper ppe, it should have been a given and obvious in a pandemic, but our government is reactive not proactive.

As you say assuming the targets can be hit, and they haven't done a great job so far, even taking into account difficulty obtaining vaccines. Up till the other day they were not allowing gps use community halls but hopefully that finally one has been allowed, the other gps will be allowed use the large spaces they need. But at the end of the day the union is trying to ensure all school staff (and that will include admin and SNAs) are vaccinated in time for school reopening in August.

Triangle

khalessi wrote: »

Yes the world did have a shortage, but the government could have said oh we will get it to you when available but didn't. Instead the unions had to become involved and as a nurse I dont think it should have got to the stage that the nursing or medical unions had to get involved in order to ensure HCWS got proper ppe, it should have been a given and obvious in a pandemic, but our government is reactive not proactive.

As you say assuming the targets can be hit, and they haven't done a great job so far, even taking into account difficulty obtaining vaccines. Up till the other day they were not allowing gps use community halls but hopefully that finally one has been allowed, the other gps will be allowed use the large spaces they need. But at the end of the day the union is trying to ensure all school staff (and that will include admin and SNAs) are vaccinated in time for school reopening in August.

I'm beginning to think you're either living in another universe or trying to rewrite history.

1) we were in the middle of an election back last March. So which government dropped the ball?
2)there was no proper PPE, when the issue was raised - it got sorted. And even one of the first shipments was bad quality and unusable? This was not anyone's fault when every country in the world was looking for proper PPE.

2) again 'they haven't done a good job'. Its an EU vaccine purchase program not an Irish prigram and I'm feeling a lot better with the EU not trying to hoard the vaccines to the detriment of less well off countries than be self servient like UK and US.

3) the unions were trying to get the teachers vaccinated first. They have now (according to you) changed their stance and now saying by August.

khalessi

Triangle wrote: »

I'm beginning to think you're either living in another universe or trying to rewrite history.

1) we were in the middle of an election back last March. So which government dropped the ball?
2)there was no proper PPE, when the issue was raised - it got sorted. And even one of the first shipments was bad quality and unusable? This was not anyone's fault when every countryT in the world was looking for proper PPE.

2) again 'they haven't done a good job'. Its an EU vaccine purchase program and I'm feeling a lot better with the EU not trying to hoard the vaccines to the detriment of less well off countries than be self servient like UK and US.

3) the unions were trying to get the teachers vaccinated first. They have now (according to you) changed their stance and now saying by August.

Yep 1/3 of first shppment had to be returned but anyways.

The original agreement was to get done after elderly and vunerable never first but sure details. So you are happy to believe, like some here, a union will fight to get members vaccinated to fly away on holidays, riiight I see where you are coming from.

So regarding enhanced safety measures in schools how would you feel about them being implemented?

blanch152

khalessi wrote: »

Yep 1/3 of first shppment had to be returned but anyways.

The original agreement was to get done after elderly and vunerable never first but sure details. So you are happy to believe, like some here, a union will fight to get members vaccinated to fly away on holidays, riiight I see where you are coming from.

So regarding enhanced safety measures in schools how would you feel about them being implemented?

Why do we need enhanced safety measures in schools when NPHET keep telling us that schools are low risk environments?

khalessi

khalessi wrote: »

Gardai met with gov re vaccines and stated it was a gov decision no Nphet re science. Gov ****ed up on lists and went age, which is fine if they protect schools which they are refusing to do.

Gardai met with NEPHET, who gave a briefing to them.
They may appeal to government but hopefully they don't go the same way as the teacher's unions!

FileNotFound

khalessi wrote: »

Yep 1/3 of first shppment had to be returned but anyways.

The original agreement was to get done after elderly and vunerable never first but sure details. So you are happy to believe, like some here, a union will fight to get members vaccinated to fly away on holidays, riiight I see where you are coming from.

So regarding enhanced safety measures in schools how would you feel about them being implemented?

So do you now agree that teachers should not be prioritised?

You only seem to mention advanced safety measures in the last few posts!

What safety measures are we looking at? What will there impact be and what is a reasonable timeframe for implementation? Will it be ahead of the vaccine rollout that will make them redundant?

The message the public heard was priority and now? Under the previous plan (Cohort 11 I think) they would have received shots in late may early June. This was literally at a time when no risk existed.

Now the government made a sensible decision to put higher risk people first. Seems to make solid sense.

Treppen

awec wrote: »

Yes, there will be exceptions. But again, the data shows that age is by far the biggest factor in vulnerability.

You do understand that teachers are not being moved to the bottom of the list right? Older teachers will get vaccinated along with their age group. Younger teachers with their age group.

What is being avoided here is the absurdity of younger teachers being vaccinated ahead of older, more vulnerable people who work in other industries.

What I'm more concerned about isn't so much the "vaccinate me because I need it" line. I think it's because of the spreading effect, even from the younger teachers.

When I look at a school ecology, I don't see individuals being hit, I see a covid-soup of 1,000 people stirring around in a pot every hour and then going back home to their respective families etc.

I caught swine flu before from a student, it was hell for a few days and I got over it... so yea I can deal with that. What wasnt nice though is that I passed it on to my wife who went in to labor a few few days after and the baby had respiratory difficulties and wound up in NICU for 2 months (fine now).

So I'm sure there are many teachers like myself not thinking about mé-féin so much, but the increased chance of silent transmission.

Treppen

Triangle wrote: »

3) the unions were trying to get the teachers vaccinated first. They have now (according to you) changed their stance and now saying by August.

Where does it say that teachers wanted to be vaccinated ahead of everyone else?

political analyst

If the government says that all adults over 20 will be fully vaccinated by the end of Ausgust (I'm sure that the new single-dose vaccine will be available long before that!), that would be enough to re-assure all public-sector workers, wouldn't it? The teachers' union leaders are just playing to the gallery! By the end of June they'll barely remember what they said this week!

FileNotFound

Treppen wrote: »

Where does it say that teachers wanted to be vaccinated ahead of everyone else?

They were just asking to be vaccinated at a time pre a non work period where they would have no risk is my understanding.

The government chose to put people with actual higher risk ahead of this not so sensible approach.

But Teachers are requesting we continue with the not so sensible one on grounds people don't understand given that most of them will get vaccinated pre return to work under the new system.

Would that be accurate?

Bass Reeves

Treppen wrote: »

What I'm more concerned about isn't so much the "vaccinate me because I need it" line. I think it's because of the spreading effect, even from the younger teachers.

When I look at a school ecology, I don't see individuals being hit, I see a covid-soup of 1,000 people stirring around in a pot every hour and then going back home to their respective families etc.

I caught swine flu before from a student, it was hell for a few days and I got over it... so yea I can deal with that. What wasnt nice though is that I passed it on to my wife who went in to labor a few few days after and the baby had respiratory difficulties and wound up in NICU for 2 months (fine now).

So I'm sure there are many teachers like myself not thinking about mé-féin so much, but the increased chance of silent transmission.

So because you were unlucky enough to pick up swine flu and passed it on to you wife who was expecting all government policy should be predicated around this. If you got knocked down outside you school by a drunk driver should the Gardai have on the spot breathalyser checkpoints at either side of schools. Policy should not be defined by one off incidents just like hard cases make bad law, unfortunate incidents should not determine health policy.

You and Khalessi seem to have an issue that all policy can not be predicated on a single incident. That governments have other priorities than spending all day everyday making sure the education system is ok. It has other funding priorities for funding than just the education sector and teachers pay.

For people who are supposed to be intelligent you seem to fail to grasp that NIAC took a decision, the government accepted that decision and moved on. It didn't have 2-3 weeks to discuss policy with a lobby group. With this disease speed is the key, we are getting 3 million doses of vaccine in the next 12 weeks. It all about decision making and speeding up the process not forming workers committee's to decide who is first and who is second

Finty Lemon

Bass Reeves wrote: »

So because you were unlucky enough to pick up swine flu and passed it on to you wife who was expecting all government policy should be predicated around this. If you got knocked down outside you school by a drunk drive should the Gardai have on the spot breathalyser checkpoints at either side of schools. Policy should not be defined by one off incidents just like hard cases make bad law, unfortunate incidents should not determine health policy.

You and Khalessi seem to have an issue that all policy can not be predicated on a single incident. That governments have other priorities than spending all day everyday making sure the education system is ok. It has other funding priorities for funding than just the education sector and teachers pay.

Fir people who are supposed to be intelligent you seem to fail to grasp that NIAC took a decision, the government accepted that decision and moved on. It didn't have 2-3 weeks to discuss policy with a lobby group. With this disease speed is the key, we are getting 3 million doses of vaccine in the next 12 weeks. It all about decision making and speeding up the process not forming workers committee's to decide who is first and who is second

Well said.
It was a good government decision. Teachers need to move on. This is not about victimising them or relegating their concerns. Its a public health decision based on getting the maximum good from a scarce resource.

Norma Foley has said from the start that decisions around Covid in schools, be they individual cases or higher policy concerns, will be driven by the public health advice. Many people can't accept that or just want to second guess it at every turn.

Agree also that personal stories are largely irrelevant in the decision. Save those for liveline.

Thank you teachers for your efforts in keeping the school year going. The covid landscape will change over the summer and hopefully all will be present and correct to start a normal year in September 2021

Necro

Bass Reeves wrote: »

So because you were unlucky enough to pick up swine flu and passed it on to you wife who was expecting all government policy should be predicated around this. If you got knocked down outside you school by a drunk driver should the Gardai have on the spot breathalyser checkpoints at either side of schools. Policy should not be defined by one off incidents just like hard cases make bad law, unfortunate incidents should not determine health policy.

You and Khalessi seem to have an issue that all policy can not be predicated on a single incident. That governments have other priorities than spending all day everyday making sure the education system is ok. It has other funding priorities for funding than just the education sector and teachers pay.

For people who are supposed to be intelligent you seem to fail to grasp that NIAC took a decision, the government accepted that decision and moved on. It didn't have 2-3 weeks to discuss policy with a lobby group. With this disease speed is the key, we are getting 3 million doses of vaccine in the next 12 weeks. It all about decision making and speeding up the process not forming workers committee's to decide who is first and who is second

Just on this last point. Can you imagine the public reaction if the government delayed the advice from NIAC to speak with the unions and various groups about it first.

There would be pandemonium. And not just on boards, for very good reason.

Beasty

Treppen wrote: »

When I look at a school ecology, I don't see individuals being hit, I see a covid-soup of 1,000 people stirring around in a pot every hour and then going back home to their respective families etc.

And you think vaccinating teachers changes that much? No vaccines are currently available for under 16s, so 950+ of those people are going to be doing that regardless

Getting those 50+ year olds across the community vaccinated is going to do more to protect the wider population in the scenario you paint

Jeremy Sproket

The cynic in me says that a large cohort of the teachers jumping on the strike bandwagon wouldn't have gotten the vaccine anyway.
If it were my way, I'd force all those who went on strike to get the vaccine and a matter of principle, whether they want it or not.

They want to be vaccinated in time for a nice 3 month holiday in Greece.

Valhallapt

Can you imagine nurses threatening to withhold services until they were vaccinated. Vaccine has been here since December. Imagine they went on strike then until they all got the two jabs...

They were reasonable, rational and realised that there would be a process to follow, and they’d follow the guidelines and some are still waiting

teachinggal123

khalessi wrote: »

Ageed as I said elsewhere a badly put message.

Tbf the backlash against teachers has been there for years, this was just another excuse for those who have it as a hobby.

That is very unfair khalessi. People are - rightly - criticising teachers because we have acted appallingly in this instance.

The default for many teachers is to just dismiss ANY criticism as "teacher bashing" or jealousy - I have see this in the staffroom many times. Even if the criticism is justified.

I've even been accused of "teacher bashing" even though I'm a teacher!!! This was after I had the cheek to say that some of my colleagues did very little work during the lockdown!! Even though this was 100% a fact!!!

I don't know why teachers cannot take ANY critical comment.




.

blanch152

Treppen wrote: »

What I'm more concerned about isn't so much the "vaccinate me because I need it" line. I think it's because of the spreading effect, even from the younger teachers.

When I look at a school ecology, I don't see individuals being hit, I see a covid-soup of 1,000 people stirring around in a pot every hour and then going back home to their respective families etc.

I caught swine flu before from a student, it was hell for a few days and I got over it... so yea I can deal with that. What wasnt nice though is that I passed it on to my wife who went in to labor a few few days after and the baby had respiratory difficulties and wound up in NICU for 2 months (fine now).

So I'm sure there are many teachers like myself not thinking about mé-féin so much, but the increased chance of silent transmission.

The pieces in bold make an excellent argument in support of the Government approach to vaccinating all by age. It won't matter that the 950 students stirring around in a pot every hour bring the virus back home to their over-50s families, because they will have got the vaccine by the summer holidays.

The younger teachers can relax at home over the summer safe in the knowledge that older people were saved from dying by the change in vaccination policy.

TheValeyard

Dempo1 wrote: »

Do your F******* jobs.

Classy.

Seaandwind

At the end of the day, when we rightly get it in line with age and hopefully before September, you would have to wonder why many other countries prioritised teachers and educational workers (police and carers too!).

If everyone is basing it off ‘the science’, our variant must be a different breed altogether!

meeeeh

Seaandwind wrote: »

At the end of the day, when we rightly get it in line with age and hopefully before September, you would have to wonder why many other countries prioritised teachers and educational workers (police and carers too!).

If everyone is basing it off ‘the science’, our variant must be a different breed altogether!

Actually I know Slovenia had teachers on priority list and started vaccinating the because schools were closed so much. They reverted back to the by age grouping and scraped priority for teachers. Countries have different systems (could be older kids, longer travel in high schools, bigger schools, other factors) but the fact is that UK is probably the most successful in EU and they are doing it by age.

FileNotFound

Seaandwind wrote: »

At the end of the day, when we rightly get it in line with age and hopefully before September, you would have to wonder why many other countries prioritised teachers and educational workers (police and carers too!).

If everyone is basing it off ‘the science’, our variant must be a different breed altogether!

Their teaching staff were working most of the year. Ours was at home.

Maybe that had an impact?

Cluedo Monopoly

teachinggal123 wrote: »

That is very unfair khalessi. People are - rightly - criticising teachers because we have acted appallingly in this instance.

The default for many teachers is to just dismiss ANY criticism as "teacher bashing" or jealousy - I have see this in the staffroom many times. Even if the criticism is justified.

I've even been accused of "teacher bashing" even though I'm a teacher!!! This was after I had the cheek to say that some of my colleagues did very little work during the lockdown!! Even though this was 100% a fact!!!

I don't know why teachers cannot take ANY critical comment.

.

I really admire your honesty.