United Ireland Poll - please vote

drdidlittle

FrancieBrady wrote: »

'Dublin' wouldn't be. We would 'all' be governing ourselves, 'deciding our fate ourselves without outside impediment'.

Why be afraid of that?

So your not afraid of a united Ireland rejoining the UK... In theory...when the people decide to.

tom1ie

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Why would it not happen?

Do you trust this government to get all that right?
To integrate the psni with the guards?
To balance the pay structures between NI teachers and REP teachers in a UI?
Would the rep Ireland teacher payscales come down to the same levels as the ni teacher payscales?
I think we all know the answer to that one.
Same for firemen, paramedics etc etc.
The government cant get the HSE to run itself properly yet you trust them to sort out these issues which would only be the tip of the iceberg at the same time as finding the money, but not through SW cuts or higher taxation?
That’s la la land stuff tbh.

downcow

6 wrote: »

Probably the best and fairest way to deal with it

Sounds like majority rule. So the tricolour would obviously win

VinLieger

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I see no issue in compromising and getting rid of the tricolour if it offends. A selection of new flags can then be agreed and we all vote on the one we want.

I would contend a majority of people in the Republic would have a big problem with getting rid of the tri colour in the case of a UI.


Theres been no real polling done on it so its impossible to say one way or another but i dont see how you can so easily dismiss this as being something that would not be a large issue for a border poll in the south.

mehico

downcow wrote: »

Sounds like majority rule. So the tricolour would obviously win

I think it would have to be a new flag.

FrancieBrady

drdidlittle wrote: »

So your not afraid of a united Ireland rejoining the UK... In theory...when the people decide to.

If a majority decide that, as a democrat I would have to accept it, as I accept the current status.

FrancieBrady

tom1ie wrote: »

Do you trust this government to get all that right?
To integrate the psni with the guards?
To balance the pay structures between NI teachers and REP teachers in a UI?
Would the rep Ireland teacher payscales come down to the same levels as the ni teacher payscales?
I think we all know the answer to that one.
Same for firemen, paramedics etc etc.
The government cant get the HSE to run itself properly yet you trust them to sort out these issues which would only be the tip of the iceberg at the same time as finding the money, but not through SW cuts or higher taxation?
That’s la la land stuff tbh.

The government don't have the will you mean. Anything can be fixed if the will is there. Are you proposing we just accept things as they are and never seek to improve?

end of the road

drdidlittle wrote: »

So your not afraid of a united Ireland rejoining the UK... In theory...when the people decide to.

it's not going to happen.
there would absolutely be no benefit or reason for us to rejoin with a basket case state.
reunification between the north and south is what is going to happen and you just need to get used to it.

wicklowstevo

end of the road wrote: »

it's not going to happen.
there would absolutely be no benefit or reason for us to rejoin with a basket case state.
reunification between the north and south is what is going to happen and you just need to get used to it.

one on the many valid and logical reasons why we don't want to rejoin with NI

I have no doubt that the irony of your statement will be lost on you

drdidlittle

end of the road wrote: »

it's not going to happen.
there would absolutely be no benefit or reason for us to rejoin with a basket case state.
reunification between the north and south is what is going to happen and you just need to get used to it.

'and you just need to get used to it'
And it that attitude that has me worried. If that what's being thrown about on a Internet site....... God help you trying to get Billy on board.
I've said it here before, let the north sort themselves out first. No interference from London or Dublin. Replacing Dublin for London will only replace Unionist for Republican and the wheel keeps on turning

end of the road

wicklowstevo wrote: »

one on the many valid and logical reasons why we don't want to rejoin with NI

I have no doubt that the irony of your statement will be lost on you

NI is the way it is because of the abomination of partition and being under UK rule, but that is very fixable.
the UK itself on the other hand is less certain with scotland probably heading for the door in the near future and wales who knows, with england itself falling victim to the far and alt right.
maybe they will turn things around who knows, but there is no doubt the only way to stop NI being a basket case is reunification with the south.

drdidlittle wrote: »

'and you just need to get used to it'
And it that attitude that has me worried. If that what's being thrown about on a Internet site....... God help you trying to get Billy on board.
I've said it here before, let the north sort themselves out first. No interference from London or Dublin. Replacing Dublin for London will only replace Unionist for Republican and the wheel keeps on turning

leaving northern ireland to sort itself out without interference has been tried, we ended up with one of the most sectarian states in europe and a 30 year conflict and all of the issues that went with it, and still do.
that won't be happening again.

drdidlittle

end of the road wrote: »

NI is the way it is because of the abomination of partition and being under UK rule, but that is very fixable.
the UK itself on the other hand is less certain with scotland probably heading for the door in the near future and wales who knows, with england itself falling victim to the far and alt right.
maybe they will turn things around who knows, but there is no doubt the only way to stop NI being a basket case is reunification with the south.



leaving northern ireland to sort itself out without interference has been tried, we ended up with one of the most sectarian states in europe and a 30 year conflict and all of the issues that went with it, and still do.
that won't be happening again.

Yes but with the nationalist population now in the majority which has been pointed out here numerous times thing will be as clean cut as the UI that has been put forward. Wasn't one of the main issues that the nationalist population were the minority?

I don't think a vote on an UI is as clear cut either side of the line as some posters here think.

tom1ie

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The government don't have the will you mean. Anything can be fixed if the will is there. Are you proposing we just accept things as they are and never seek to improve?

I never suggested accepting anything.
You mention improve? How would an extra tax on my pay packet improve anything for me?
Explain that to me Francie.

FrancieBrady

tom1ie wrote: »

I never suggested accepting anything.
You mention improve? How would an extra tax on my pay packet improve anything for me?
Explain that to me Francie.

Tax as an investment. You pay tax so the government can invest in making the country better.

And you are accepting, if you resist change.

Junkyard Tom

tom1ie wrote: »

How would an extra tax on my pay packet improve anything for me?

Belfast seriously under-performs when compared to Dublin. Belfast can become a sister-city to Dublin and I've little doubt that the economy of Ulster could be reoriented fairly quickly to perform in line with the rest of the country.

tom1ie

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Tax as an investment. You pay tax so the government can invest in making the country better.

And you are accepting, if you resist change.

How does it make the country better francie?

tom1ie

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Belfast seriously under-performs when compared to Dublin. Belfast can become a sister-city to Dublin and I've little doubt that the economy of Ulster could be reoriented fairly quickly to perform in line with the rest of the country.

That’s great but how long will the extra tax on my pay packet last and how long will that tax be in place?

FrancieBrady

tom1ie wrote: »

How does it make the country better francie?

In many ways tom1ie.

tom1ie

FrancieBrady wrote: »

In many ways tom1ie.

Grand, but how?
I’m failing to see any positives to the working people of the rep, I’m also failing to see any positives to the people of NI as they lose the NHS.

FrancieBrady

tom1ie wrote: »

That’s great but how long will the extra tax on my pay packet last and how long will that tax be in place?

A tiny fraction of a second is the answer to the first part and for as long as it is required if it is required at all is the answer to the second part.

tom1ie

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A tiny fraction of a second is the answer to the first part and for as long as it is required if it is required at all is the answer to the second part.

Link? I presume this is fully costed otherwise your only guessing.

FrancieBrady

tom1ie wrote: »

Link? I presume this is fully costed otherwise your only guessing.

To what?

tom1ie

FrancieBrady wrote: »

To what?

To showing how there might not be any tax and if there is how it won’t last long.

Look francie, how much will this cost us southern taxpayers? That’s all I’m asking.

drdidlittle

tom1ie wrote: »

I never suggested accepting anything.
You mention improve? How would an extra tax on my pay packet improve anything for me?
Explain that to me Francie.

Greater 'good' Tom. Same as the PBP and far left in ROI not knowing what socialist politics is when a user pays tax comes in.
Let's put some figures on this.
Say UK back NI to the tune of 10 billion euro.
At a starting point say ROI pays 1 billion in year 1 and rises by 1 billion a year for 10 years. Assume some gains and efficiency so on year ten we are backing NI to the tune of 8 billion
Working population of ROI in 2020 was abt 2.5 million and a quick calculation give me 60 euro per head per week by year 10.
NI is a nett sum of zero as a starting point as UK paying in more than 10 billion. Since most of working force in NI is in public service, if you streamline, jobs go or are not nett contributers to the output of the country.

FrancieBrady

tom1ie wrote: »

To showing how there might not be any tax and if there is how it won’t last long.

Look francie, how much will this cost us southern taxpayers? That’s all I’m asking.

Can you 'link' to where it says there will be a 'tax'?

tom1ie

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Can you 'link' to where it says there will be a 'tax'?

Lol! Of course not, but I’m not the one pushing this idea. You are.

Bobeagleburger

You won't get a breakdown of how we pay for a UI. I've asked they question a few times. No plausible answers yet.

We'll somehow magic up the money.

downcow

end of the road wrote: »

NI is the way it is because of the abomination of partition and being under UK rule, but that is very fixable.
the UK itself on the other hand is less certain with scotland probably heading for the door in the near future and wales who knows, with england itself falling victim to the far and alt right.
maybe they will turn things around who knows, but there is no doubt the only way to stop NI being a basket case is reunification with the south.



leaving northern ireland to sort itself out without interference has been tried, we ended up with one of the most sectarian states in europe and a 30 year conflict and all of the issues that went with it, and still do.
that won't be happening again.

Second only to the one down south

tom1ie

6 wrote: »

You won't get a breakdown of how we pay for a UI. I've asked they question a few times. No plausible answers yet.

We'll somehow magic up the money.

Thought so. Some people are so reckless with other peoples money.
You don’t work in the HSE by any chance francie?
Only joking have a good night.

Bobeagleburger

tom1ie wrote: »

Thought so. Some people are so reckless with other peoples money.
You don’t work in the HSE by any chance francie?
Only joking have a good night.

I think some people want UI at any cost. A very brexit like way at looking at it.

Make it right with the numbers first. Then it'll work.

drdidlittle

You never will hear those figures as they will kill any talk of UI.
I'm reading the government report on a UI at the minute (thanks Francie). Uses German and Korean (using a hypothetical reunification on a hypothetical reunification paper) reunification and is littered with notes on insufficient information on NI finances.

wicklowstevo

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Can you 'link' to where it says there will be a 'tax'?

every one will be asked to "contribute" or to pay some "insurance " to the organisation like the good old days ??

just kidding , but you cant pay for it all in slightly musty out of date northern bank notes , which is actually as realistic as any financial plan put forward so far

FrancieBrady

tom1ie wrote: »

Lol! Of course not, but I’m not the one pushing this idea. You are.

I want the discussion and planning to begin. That is whst I am pyshing...because what is there has failed.

BTW we all constitutionally aspire to this.

drdidlittle

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I want the discussion and planning to begin. That is whst I am pyshing...because what is there has failed.

BTW we all constitutionally aspire to this.

Right. Get the ball rolling and throw out a proposal on how it will be paid for?

FrancieBrady

drdidlittle wrote: »

Right. Get the ball rolling and throw out a proposal on how it will be paid for?

We are gonna tax Tom.

drdidlittle

FrancieBrady wrote: »

We are gonna tax Tom.

Don't think he can take it all on his own Tom.... You going to need a pay increase

tom1ie

Lol! Jaysus!

Bobeagleburger

This is why a UI is decades away. Economically it's not viable. Also, it's not even on the radar at the moment politically.

Seathrun66

Deleted User wrote: »

This is the logical fallacy of begging the question ie presuming the conclusion. You have to prove it.

In the case of the Irish republic its aspirational only. When tiny changes like increased taxes are mentioned, support drops off.

We would need all that because funding Northern Ireland is a huge cost.

I’m not 100% sure that is true but even if so they don’t have any real say.

Another logical fallacy, this time a false analogy.

Not going to happen.

Demographics, polling, Brexit - it's happening.

UK obligations, EU & US cash all coming.

Source please re drop in polling numbers when taxation mentioned. All polling in consistently pro-unification. I've searched for any of the polling you mentioned. Is it incvented?

Polling in England shows they want NI gone. Tory press pushing subtly for the same. George Osborne and the Evening Standard not so subtly saying time to dump NI.

Siege mentality in South Africa. Ostriches with heads in the sand. Same with the DUP and acolytes. It's coming. Prepare for it and position yourself to your best advantage.

Seathrun66

drdidlittle wrote: »

Funniest post on here yet.

How so? You think a couple of hundred youths rioting is going to break the peace process?

Seathrun66

tom1ie wrote: »

I wouldn’t.
How do you know it won’t be 10% and do you mean short term like the USC? Or PRSI? they were short term too weren’t they.......
I think your talking crap tbh.

Germany managed a far greater problem with an economy 30 years behind by using the taxation normally passed to the church. Changed the name to the Soli taxed and made much higher earners pay it. Worked out well wouldn't you say?

Seathrun66

drdidlittle wrote: »

And yet again no specific proposals

Is democracy a tough concept to grasp?

Seathrun66

downcow wrote: »

Sounds like majority rule. So the tricolour would obviously win

I'm another that'd be happy to ditch the tricolour. It's only a symbol and why retain a flag that one sixth of the population greatly disliked. The vote would be on new flags.

drdidlittle

Seathrun66 wrote: »

Is democracy a tough concept to grasp?

No. I'm all for it. All I want is some specific proposals on the finance and logistics of how this will happen so we can discuss here. I proposed an independent NI for 50 years to get their house in order and then let NI decide on what they want.

Bateman

We live in a time when people in the USA are getting free cheques posted out to them from successive Rep and Dem White Houses, and the EU is spending money with no idea how or when they will reverse direction, and people talk about "economics" with a straight face

drdidlittle

Seathrun66 wrote: »

How so? You think a couple of hundred youths rioting is going to break the peace process?

Again no but the 'it'll be grand' approach doesn't work for me. I want specifics and full documented process lock and loaded before I vote on any form of UI

Seathrun66

drdidlittle wrote: »

No. I'm all for it. All I want is some specific proposals on the finance and logistics of how this will happen so we can discuss here. I proposed an independent NI for 50 years to get their house in order and then let NI decide on what they want.

Specifics for democracy? It's going to be PR dude.

NI ain't worked for 100 years. Another 50 won't help.

Questions re finance have been repeatedly answered at length above. Fair enough if you don't like the answers but they're not changing because of your dissatisfaction.

Seathrun66

drdidlittle wrote: »

Again no but the 'it'll be grand' approach doesn't work for me. I want specifics and full documented process lock and loaded before I vote on any form of UI

Will you be old enough to vote in 2025? We can hang on til 2027 if it suits.



And on that note goodnight y'all. MOTD beckons.

Bateman

Finance and logistics. Bless

drdidlittle

Seathrun66 wrote: »

Will you be old enough to vote in 2025? We can hang on til 2027 if it suits.



And on that note goodnight y'all. MOTD beckons.

I'm old enough to remember the troubles. Are you. The specifics are as follows and you can fill in as appropriate.
Cost to ROI budget
Unionist intregration
Health system for NI
Public service jobs both North and South.