are auction contracts categorically infallible

joeguevara

In all/vast majority of house sales a booking deposit is paid to stop further viewings etc. A survey is the norm and it has the potential of bringing to light structural issues, boundary issues etc. Once signed off a full non refundable deposit is paid and subsequent remainder of sale price.

In the situation outlined, the survey would have shown up any unlawful living spaces. people don't usually handover hundreds of k without due diligence.

Victor

joeguevara wrote: »

In all/vast majority of house sales a booking deposit is paid to stop further viewings etc. A survey is the norm and it has the potential of bringing to light structural issues, boundary issues etc. Once signed off a full non refundable deposit is paid and subsequent remainder of sale price.

In the situation outlined, the survey would have shown up any unlawful living spaces. people don't usually handover hundreds of k without due diligence.

At auction, things are materially different. Everyone is expected to do their due diligence before bidding. The winning bidder is expected to pay the contract deposit on the day.

Mad_maxx

Mad_maxx wrote: »

how may i ask do you inspect a property in the current climate ?

you are aware that auctions are still going ahead despite no viewings ?

You arrange a surveyor to visit the property on your behalf.


You engage a solicitor to have a look at all the relevant documents to find any discrepancies, issues or missing bedrooms.




If people aren't willing to do even the most basic of research, or engage the relevant professionals, then they don't belong at an auction.

Mad_maxx

Due diligence on the part of buyers is a must but it's regrettable that an auction house can engage in the kind of marketing Sharp practice that would shame a back street used car salesman.

Darc19

Mad_maxx wrote: »

I didn't say it can't be used as a bedroom, I'm saying it can't be listed as a bedroom for marketing purposes if planning for said conversion did not take place

If the above takes place without planning, you market as three bed house ( plus converted attic bedroom)

If planning did preceed attic conversion, you list as four bedroom house for sale ,important distinction

My EA contact said the same to me today

That's not what I understand it to be.

If if follows all regulations for habitable space and has the necessary sign offs, then it can be described as a bedroom.

I'd be very wary of what any estate agent says on either side of an argument.

There's one site auctioneera that says planning is required and then links to an article where a SF councillor converted an attic - but it was not his property and he had made changes to the roof. And it took an inspector two minutes to say it did not comply because it was so poorly done.

It possibly is a very strict interpretation of some planning code, but even architects say that planning is not necessary if all the building regs are met and no change to the roof.

Once it's clear that the room is on the 3rd floor, and relevant certs are in place, I can't see any issues.

Dav010

Maxx, I think there are two aspects to your query, the description and the legality of what is described,

A house may have 10 rooms in total, including kitchen, living room, games room etc. My own house has an office, it’s obvious it’s and office because there is a big desk and book shelves, but there would be nothing to stop me designating that as a bedroom if I was selling and took all the furniture with me.

The next issue is compliance with planning permission and building regulations. At auction, a lot of sales are properties sold by receivers, unlike a PT sale, Recievers do not have to ensure the property meets the regs or has planning.

So in your case, the seller could describe that room in the attic as a bedroom, an office, a gamesroom etc and the Reciever does not have to warranty that it meets the legal standards. This is a huge difference between PT and auction sales, and it is why buying at auction is not for the uninitiated or uninformed. You, the buyer have to check everything.

Claw Hammer

Mad_maxx wrote: »

you have all the answers , dont you ?

not everyone believes sharp practice should be merely excused behind the power of the auction contract.

fair enough if the property is not compliant in some technical way , original owner is a belligerent individual , cash buyers only etc , basic details like number of bedrooms however needs to be accurate from an advertisement POV in my opinion , especially during lockdown you believe its ok , fine

What people believe has nothing to do with it. Buddhist, christian, atheist, the same law applies.
You get a contract, you get requisitions on title, you make your enquiries and you either buy what is offered or don't buy.

Mad_maxx

Darc19 wrote: »

That's not what I understand it to be.

If if follows all regulations for habitable space and has the necessary sign offs, then it can be described as a bedroom.

I'd be very wary of what any estate agent says on either side of an argument.

There's one site auctioneera that says planning is required and then links to an article where a SF councillor converted an attic - but it was not his property and he had made changes to the roof. And it took an inspector two minutes to say it did not comply because it was so poorly done.

It possibly is a very strict interpretation of some planning code, but even architects say that planning is not necessary if all the building regs are met and no change to the roof.

Once it's clear that the room is on the 3rd floor, and relevant certs are in place, I can't see any issues.

well perhaps but this EA who rang me yesterday ( about an unrelated matter ) has no dog in this fight , he sold my mothers house last september and is not local to the property im referring to

where planning protects someone with a converted attic is they are not exposed to the very onerously strict current fire regs , while its not illegal to convert an attic without planning , you can then find yourself at the mercy of said fire regs

a case of seeking planning to convert attic being a sort of insurance , never mind a licence to include in the bedroom counting process of marketing

Mad_maxx

Claw Hammer wrote: »

What people believe has nothing to do with it. Buddhist, christian, atheist, the same law applies.
You get a contract, you get requisitions on title, you make your enquiries and you either buy what is offered or don't buy.

youre username is apt , your about as nuanced as a claw hammer

for the sake of a technical discussion , you could at least be open to the possibility that circumstances like the current covid lockdown situation might demand more scrutiny in the area of advertising , you seem happy to heap all onus on buyers ?

Mad_maxx

Dav010 wrote: »

Maxx, I think there are two aspects to your query, the description and the legality of what is described,

A house may have 10 rooms in total, including kitchen, living room, games room etc. My own house has an office, it’s obvious it’s and office because there is a big desk and book shelves, but there would be nothing to stop me designating that as a bedroom if I was selling and took all the furniture with me.

The next issue is compliance with planning permission and building regulations. At auction, a lot of sales are properties sold by receivers, unlike a PT sale, Recievers do not have to ensure the property meets the regs or has planning.

So in your case, the seller could describe that room in the attic as a bedroom, an office, a gamesroom etc and the Reciever does not have to warranty that it meets the legal standards. This is a huge difference between PT and auction sales, and it is why buying at auction is not for the uninitiated or uninformed. You, the buyer have to check everything.

thanks Dav , I get it that the receiver informs any potential buyer of there being no comeback etc , im more referring to the auction house as the physical advertising is on their platform.

are you saying the auction house can showcase anything and if details are found to be incorrect , they too are not under any obligation due to the power of the auction contract ?

Dav010

Mad_maxx wrote: »

thanks Dav , I get it that the receiver informs any potential buyer of there being no comeback etc , im more referring to the auction house as the physical advertising is on their platform.

are you saying the auction house can showcase anything and if details are found to be incorrect , they too are not under any obligation due to the power of the auction contract ?

But when buying at auction, the onus is on you to check the details. If for instance in the example you gave that the Reciever /auction house claimed it was a two story house instead of a bungalow with an attic conversion, or that the house had planning when it didn’t, then your solicitor would take that up with the auction house as this clearly is a misrepresentation of the property.

Del2005

Mad_maxx wrote: »

my sister who lives in dublin and works in the law but not in conveyancy was telling me over the weekend about a situation quite recently where a couple bought a house at an online auction , they appeared to get a discount , the title was pretty ok and they know the estate and area well , they have friends living nearby

the problem was that the house was advertised as a four bed house but one of the bedrooms was a converted attic . while in practice this extra bedroom might well have real value , not only can you not list the house as any bigger than a three bed should you decided to sell in years to come , estate agents themselves are not permitted to advertise three beds with converted attics as four beds

the question is whether the power of the auction contract allows such a detail to be omitted ? , thus inflating the status of the house

according to my sister , the sale has not closed yet and has dragged on since before christmas , the winning bidder demanding a refund

what i took from this was that during covid lockdown , the onus should be higher on auction houses to provide absolutely accurate details as viewings are not permitted

Did the people not look at any pictures or plans for the property before they bid? Because if they saw the bedroom in the attic, it's hard to hide a converted attic, then they knew what they were bidding on. If they didn't look at any plans or pictures why did they bid? Sounds like buyers remorse and looking for an excuse to get out.

20/20

Mad_maxx wrote: »

im more referring to the auction house as the physical advertising is on their platform.

Can you post a pic or maybe the link so we could see what this attic looks like.

Mad_maxx

Del2005 wrote: »

Did the people not look at any pictures or plans for the property before they bid? Because if they saw the bedroom in the attic, it's hard to hide a converted attic, then they knew what they were bidding on. If they didn't look at any plans or pictures why did they bid? Sounds like buyers remorse and looking for an excuse to get out.

According to what my sister told me, they want a price renegotiation

Claw Hammer

Mad_maxx wrote: »

youre username is apt , your about as nuanced as a claw hammer

for the sake of a technical discussion , you could at least be open to the possibility that circumstances like the current covid lockdown situation might demand more scrutiny in the area of advertising , you seem happy to heap all onus on buyers ?

All the onus is on buyers. That is the whole point of it. Lockdown or not its buyer beware. There are laws against misleading advertising already in existence. Perhaps you are unawawre of that?

Mad_maxx

Claw Hammer wrote: »

All the onus is on buyers. That is the whole point of it. Lockdown or not its buyer beware. There are laws against misleading advertising already in existence. Perhaps you are unawawre of that?

You don't seem to think such advertising laws hold any sway, auction contract shields from any breach of said laws

Claw Hammer

Mad_maxx wrote: »

You don't seem to think such advertising laws hold any sway, auction contract shields from any breach of said laws

The contract is with the vendor of the property. If there is a breach complaint can be made but it is still up to the buyer to satisfyt themselves as to what they are buying. If a kitchen was extended without planning or exemption from planning is the Auctioneer supposed to ignore the prescence of a kitchen in their description?

Dav010

Mad_maxx wrote: »

You don't seem to think such advertising laws hold any sway, auction contract shields from any breach of said laws

It is important to understand the difference between consumer law and rights, and property sales, more specifically auctions. The people in your sisters story can try to renegotiate, but it may depend on whether they surveyed the property and did their due diligence like they were supposed to, if they did and still bought at auction, then they did so with their eyes open, if they didn’t survey/get legal advice before bidding, then they bid blindly.

Mad_maxx

Dav010 wrote: »

It is important to understand the difference between consumer law and rights, and property sales, more specifically auctions. The people in your sisters story can try to renegotiate, but it may depend on whether they surveyed the property and did their due diligence like they were supposed to, if they did and still bought at auction, then they did so with their eyes open, if they didn’t survey/get legal advice before bidding, then they bid blindly.

one imagines its extremely unlikely the couple will be able to renegotiate but i still think the issue is worth reviewing in the current circumstances where physical inspection is so difficult

that the property was listed as a four bed instead of a three , suggests strongly that there was an attempt to inflate the stature of the house ?

Claw Hammer

Mad_maxx wrote: »

one imagines its extremely unlikely the couple will be able to renegotiate but i still think the issue is worth reviewing in the current circumstances where physical inspection is so difficult

that the property was listed as a four bed instead of a three , suggests strongly that there was an attempt to inflate the stature of the house ?

Below are standard conditions in an online sale. Any eejit who signs this and then thinks they can go back and renegotiate a lower price is deluded. They would be lucky not to be charged interest on a delayed closing.

6. The Purchaser is deemed to have purchased the property with full knowledge of the actual state and condition of same and to take the property as it stands and is deemed to have inspected the property and to be familiar with its boundaries, fences and walls and shall not require any declaration of identity or explanation as to boundaries, fences and walls and no requisition or objection shall be made or entertained in respect of same.

11. The Purchaser agrees and accepts that no information, statement, description, quantity or measurement contained in any advertisements or given orally or contained in any brochure, catalogue, letter, report, docket or hand out issued by or on behalf of the Vendor in respect of the Subject Property (whether or not in the course of any representation or negotiations leading to the Sale) shall constitute a representation inducing the Purchaser to enter into the Sale or a condition or warranty forming part of this Contract. Any information, statement, description, quantity or measurements so given or contained in any such advertisement, brochure, catalogue, letter, report or hand out issued by or on behalf of the Vendor or any agent on its behalf are for illustration purposes only and are not to be taken as matters of fact and that any mistake, omission, inaccuracy or misdescription given orally or in the form of any advertisement, brochure, catalogue, letter, report or hand out issued by or on behalf of the Vendor or any of its agents (whether or not in the course of any representatiochure, catalogue, letter, report, docket or hand out issued by or on behalfof the Vendor or any of its agents (whether or not in the course of any representation or negotiations leading to the Sale) shall not give rise to any right of action, claim, entitlement or compensation against or from the Vendor or any of its agents under this agreement or otherwise or any right of residue of termination. The within Contract comprises the entire of the Contract between the Vendor and the Purchaser and supersedes any other alleged contract between the parties in relation to the Subject Property. For the avoidance of doubt, the parties hereby acknowledge that any previous agreement which may have been entered into by the Vendor, Receivers and Purchaser relating to the Subject Property is hereby rescinded. Any statement, representation or warranty made by the Vendor, agent or employees during the course of negotiations leading to the Sale which are not herein contained and set forth are hereby treated as having been withdrawn and will have no force or effect at law whatsoever. General Condition 29 shall be read subject to this condition.

Dav010

Mad_maxx wrote: »

one imagines its extremely unlikely the couple will be able to renegotiate but i still think the issue is worth reviewing in the current circumstances where physical inspection is so difficult

that the property was listed as a four bed instead of a three , suggests strongly that there was an attempt to inflate the stature of the house ?

Why? There are 4 bedrooms, aren’t there?

Mad_maxx

Dav010 wrote: »

Why? There are 4 bedrooms, aren’t there?

Without prior planning, converted attic should not be counted as a bedroom

Dav010

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Without prior planning, converted attic should not be counted as a bedroom

Again, a Receiver is not required to ensure planning is in order.

Peregrinus

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Without prior planning, converted attic should not be counted as a bedroom

Who, exactly, says this? And where?

Mad_maxx

Peregrinus wrote: »

Who, exactly, says this? And where?

Screenshot_20210326-084412_Chrome.jpg

Peregrinus

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Screenshot_20210326-084412_Chrome.jpg

(A) Does that even relate to Ireland, or is it a story about something that happened in some other country?

(B) Nothing in there seems to say anything about how the property may be marketed or described.

Whether a particular room is a bedroom (or a bathroom, or a kitchen, etc) is a matter of fact, to be ascertained — if there is any doubt — by inspecting the room, seeing how it is fitted out, how it functions, etc.

Whether a bedroom (or a bathroom, or a kitchen, etc) has been constructed/installed/adapted in accordance with planning requirements and/or building regulations is a separate question, to be ascertained by having it surveyed by a knowledgeable person, by inspecting any certificates offered by the seller, and by checking the planning file of the local authority. These are all things that a prudent purchaser will consider doing.

There may well be - I don't know this - professional guidance or regulations affecting estate agents that say that they shouldn't market a property as having so many bedrooms unless the bedrooms are compliant, or they point out that they aren't compliant, with planning requirements and building regulations. If there is such a professional rule, no doubt someone will point to it.

But even if there is such a rule it wouldn't follow from this that, if the house is marketed in this way when it shouldn't be, if someone buys the house and only later discovers the problem the contract of sale can be set aside. The professional body that regulates estate agents has no power to dictate contract terms between buyers and sellers, or to set aside contracts. So you'd need to find some separate rule of law that overrides the terms of the contract in a case where the marketing literature doesn't point out that one or more of the bedrooms is noncompliant.

Claw Hammer

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Screenshot_20210326-084412_Chrome.jpg

That is drivel. The reason agents don't want to market the room as a bedroom is because it will have to be disclosed when the contracts issue that there is no plannning for use as a bedroom. In that situation it is most unlikely the purchaser will get a mortgage.
In that case it will mean a refund of the booking deposits and complains that money has been wasted on solicitors surveys etc.
In an auction, the contract is formed when a bid is accepted and the contract will have waived any compliance with planning.
There are eejits bidding in online auctions and going to solicitors after their bid is accepted to proceess the legal work. Time and again they have bought trouble.

Mad_maxx

Claw Hammer wrote: »

That is drivel. The reason agents don't want to market the room as a bedroom is because it will have to be disclosed when the contracts issue that there is no plannning for use as a bedroom. In that situation it is most unlikely the purchaser will get a mortgage.
In that case it will mean a refund of the booking deposits and complains that money has been wasted on solicitors surveys etc.
In an auction, the contract is formed when a bid is accepted and the contract will have waived any compliance with planning.
There are eejits bidding in online auctions and going to solicitors after their bid is accepted to proceess the legal work. Time and again they have bought trouble.

there are indeed no end of idiots bidding at online auctions , i agree with you entirely


that aside , is the screen shot i posted from the " auctioneera " site correct or incorrect ?

the situation involves my sisters secretaries sister and her husband ( dont know them from a hole in the wall ), i dont know the people involved but it sounds like they are rightly goosed

Claw Hammer

Mad_maxx wrote: »

there are indeed no end of idiots bidding at online auctions , i agree with you entirely


that aside , is the screen shot i posted from the " auctioneera " site correct or incorrect ?

the situation involves my sisters secretaries sister and her husband ( dont know them from a hole in the wall ), i dont know the people involved but it sounds like they are rightly goosed

The auctioneera stuff is just generic advice aimed at particular owners. It is not a statement of the law, rather it is a statement of the practical reality regarding a putative sale.
In most cases an attic can be converted internally and velux windows installed where they do not alter the roof line without plkanning permission.
The restriction is on the use of it as habitable space. The council would just order the owner to stop using it as a bedroom but wouldn't order the removal of the velkux or the flooring.
To avoid hassle in selling best practice is to describe it as a store or else get planning permission and certificates of compliance with building regulations.
The purpose of most auctions whether car or house is to clear problems. They are not for widows and orphans.

Mad_maxx

Been reading up on this more , you can do a proper attic conversion which would meet fire regs and thus be certifiable ( in terms of compliance ) for circa 35 k ,perhaps more - perhaps slightly less ?

While not wise for someone to buy without being aware of the law here , in most cases a four bedroom house should be worth at least 35k more than a three bed.

Do nothing and you struggle to ever sell such a house again as it screams baggage and irregularities