Cycling Mikey

Large bottle small glass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120549368#Comment_120549368

That's a sensible post; cars breaking red lights is endemic, but almost exclusively at the amber to red phase.

I can count on one hand in over a million Kms cars I've seen breaking a red on their approach but most will break the just changed to red especially in urban areas.

The standard 3 sec amber 2 sec all red sequence gets stretched to it's limit.

The practice varies depending on jurisdiction/area, Dublin being particularly bad on breaking lights late at end of amber to red phase.

New York differs from Baltimore for example with jumping on green the norm in New York. Do that in Baltimore and expect to be hit. Although red light jumping might be the lesser of two evils in Baltimore 😯.

Laws are simpler when they are absolute, and even then people take the piss. Allowing certain reds being ignored has the capacity to confuse even if the risk is minimal/non existent.

You could argue that during off peak any road user could safely break a red; it's just a different version of a stop sign. In practice it would lead to confusion/piss taking.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120550065#Comment_120550065

I remember being told on this thread that drivers breaking a clear red light was “exceedingly rare”.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/114135922#Comment_114135922

So over the next few weeks, I published my recordings of the “exceedingly rare” events of drivers breaking clear red lights that I personally witnessed. It seemed that the “ exceedingly rare” events happen all the time, if you look properly,

Would you like me to start sharing my recordings again?

Paddigol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120550065#Comment_120550065

I've seen quite a few of the "breaking red on approach" variety. At least one a year to be honest. One just a couple of weeks ago - woman was stationary and decided that she didn't need to wait til green to go through the pedestrian crossing. One last years in particular stands out - guy in Range Rover coming from Foxrock to the N11 junction... again, decided that as there were no cars coming from city centre direction, and as the traffic from other direction were stopped on red, he could take off through a red light across four lanes to turn right towards Bray. I got the feeling that this wasn't his first rodeo at that junction.

magicbastarder

twice in the last month, at the same junction.

if you include the one where the light turned red as i was approaching, so i stopped, and the driver behind was clearly unhappy with this, swerved around me and gunned it.

in the interests of fairness, i have often seen cyclists sail through the lights on a clear red at the same junction.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120550065#Comment_120550065

I can count one both hands the number of cars I've seen go well after the light has changed red. Today I saw a Dublin bus, a taxi, a 1988 ww reg vw.

I'd say everyday I'd see at least 4-5 cars on drumcondra/whitworth Rd just go on through a red. And that's just in the couple of mins I'd be at that junction. And that's just one set of lights of dozens in the area.

Then there's the Beckett bridge/convention centre. That's a clusterfuck of cars just going on through a red light, long after theyve turned.

Its well beyond amber gambling at this stage and that's because despite above thinking Gardai are enforcing it, it isn't

CramCycle

As a spot check, on my way to the train today, about 20 minutes or so, I kept a count. Out of rush hour, half main roads, half adjoining roads. I counted 32 cars breaking a clear red, not just an amber but an indisputable red. I counted one cyclist. But as with all anecdotal evidence, it has its issues. The number of cyclists I seen probably only numbered 20 due to the time of day. The number of cars I witnessed would be higher than a motorist as I made it to the lights. The one cyclist was never impeded and free to cross, but he did slow and look around. I seen the same cyclist doing it multiple times, should I count that as more than one? The cars that run reds, had a car behind that stopped so all cars who could have run reds did not have a free run. Either way, back of the envelope calculations, the % of road users in any category who run reds, although how they run them varies, on this snapshot, was 5%. Only 3 of those motorists put anyone at risk (in my opinion) (people had started crossing, one was a pedestrian only crossing, not even at a junction).

What does this mean, well, quite simply, sweet f*ck all. There is no proof either way that the dangerous crossings were or were not realised and without any actual accidents, they never will be. I have had far more dangerous manoeuvres on a regular basis from cars drifting into me to turn without an indicator, other cyclists have also been a danger in this regard.

Long story, some people are sh1t, some intentionally, some accidentally.

The only thing I take from it is that your mode of transport does not guide your behaviour, one group is not more or less a shower of ****s than the other, only the consequences vary in their severity. Both groups should pay attention.

Lastly, until a reporting portal like CM uses in the UK becomes available here, nothing is going to change and unless death rates spike immensely (and they are immensely low), I am not going to get too stressed, I used to and it achieved nothing, so I am not going to increase the chances of a motorist killing me by getting annoyed anymore as the BP and stress will do more damage.

p15574

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120545591#Comment_120545591

Your anecdotal evidence would be biased by your expectations - how about some actual documentary evidence, like a red light camera that was trialled for 18 months? This showed that 68% of red light jumpers were motorists and 32% were cyclists.

magicbastarder

unless it also captured how many cyclists and motorists obeyed red lights, the data is meaningless. because (i don't have access to the article) the percentages as stated could in theory allow for 100% of cyclists disobeying the lights. or motorists, for that matter.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120553010#Comment_120553010

When they did measure the offending rates at the Luas red light camera, they found that 88% of red light jumping was done by motor vehicles.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120553174#Comment_120553174

Yes but what percentage of all vehicles travelling past the camera, regardless of light colour, were cars?

It's a fairly meaningless statistic because we know that cars vastly outnumber bikes.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120553174#Comment_120553174

again, this says nothing about the relative chances of a cyclist breaking a light. if 89% of vehilcles travelling through those lights were motor vehicles, it would imply that motorists are less likely to break lights.

hans aus dtschl

And again as others have said, the chances of a car breaking a red light are also affected by their opportunity to do so: if the person in front of you stops, you can't easily carry on through! The data is fairly meaningless other than to say "a lot of people do it!"

magicbastarder

yep; as i mentioned, in order to get meaningful data, you'd need to record the behaviour of all road users approaching an amber and red (which is not done, as far as i know), and then also discount the behaviour of drivers arriving at a red fourth in the queue, for example. messy to collect.

and FWIW, last night, for the second time in a week or two, as i braked for a red, the motorist behind me slalomed around me and gunned it, clearly unhappy with me braking for a red so soon after it went red.

Smee_Again

That data isn't meaningless, what it is telling us is that when a red light is broken it is far more likely to be broken by a motorist.

magicbastarder

because there are more motorists. so the conclusion is effectively trivial in the debate at hand.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120553193#Comment_120553193

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120553216#Comment_120553216

I get the percentage issue, but I'd suggest it is a fairly meaningful statistic for anyone concerned about pedestrian safety at crossings. If anyone is actually concerned about safety of pedestrians, the statistic would strongly suggest that their focus should be on getting drivers to respect traffic lights. Yet strangely enough, all the 'heat' in these discussions seems to be about bloody cyclists and red lights.

magicbastarder

it depends on the question you're asking. if it's 'who am i most likely to be hit by while crossing the road on a green man', it'll answer your question.

if it's 'who is more likely to break a red, a cyclist or a motorist?', it does not answer that question.

i do understand the point you're making, but people seem to be asking about/debating the latter question, not the former.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120554854#Comment_120554854

You're right, they are talking about the latter question, which is entirely academic.

The only relevant question is the former question.