Whey protein to maintain muscle mass?

worlds goodest teecher

I need a reasonably priced whey protein for a longterm illness to retain muscle.

I had been taking Percision Engineered from H&B. Suggestions?

Cill94

They're all much the same and similar prices. Whey protein is just the leftover byproduct of dairy processing - mainly cheese.

Some of the well-respected brands would be Optimum Nutrition, MyProtein. Kinetica.

You'll generally get best value by buying in bulk.

worlds goodest teecher

At the beginning I was buying Optimum Nutrition from H&B but found it very expensive if it wasn't on sale.

As I mentioned I am looking to use it for muscle retention not bulking up. I suffer from severe fatigue and exercise can be short in duration and nothing strenuous.

A couple of people i know using whey put on significant weight (not muscle), i would like to avoid this.

Eoinbmw

worlds goodest teecher wrote: »

At the beginning I was buying Optimum Nutrition from H&B but found it very expensive if it wasn't on sale.

As I mentioned I am looking to use it for muscle retention not bulking up. I suffer from severe fatigue and exercise can be short in duration and nothing strenuous.

A couple of people i know using whey put on significant weight (not muscle), i would like to avoid this.

Hardly the whey probably a crap diet with whey thrown in for good measure!

Alf Veedersane

worlds goodest teecher wrote: »

At the beginning I was buying Optimum Nutrition from H&B but found it very expensive if it wasn't on sale.

As I mentioned I am looking to use it for muscle retention not bulking up. I suffer from severe fatigue and exercise can be short in duration and nothing strenuous.

A couple of people i know using whey put on significant weight (not muscle), i would like to avoid this.

A scoop of whey made with water is ~ 135 calories.

They put on weight because they had a poor diet. Not because of whey.

worlds goodest teecher

I placed an order through myprotein for their own brand. See how it goes.

markmoto

I wouldn't suggest any protein powders rather getting food high in protein .

markmoto

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

They put on weight because they had a poor diet. Not because of whey.

Yes and no, whey protein increase insulin level as result you be getting more fat.
https://nutritionandmetabolism.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1743-7075-9-48

Alf Veedersane

markmoto wrote: »

Yes and no, whey protein increase insulin level as result you be getting more fat.
https://nutritionandmetabolism.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1743-7075-9-48

Increased insulin doesn't cause weight gain in and of itself. And the increased insulin has nothing to do with blood glucose and is a response to amino acids, as per that study, which is very relevant.

But out of curiosity, what would you think is the proportional impact of the caloric surplus and increased insulin level from a whey protein shake?

markmoto

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Increased insulin doesn't cause weight gain in and of itself.

But just for context, what is the proportional impact of the caloric surplus and increased insulin level from a whey protein shake?

I would never advise anyone to consume any kind of protein powders, do you really know what you buying and mixing into your shake? Regardless of the brand you get your self exposed to variety of problems from liver, kidney damage to poisoning. Rather eat food high in protein Eggs, chicken, read meat etc.


But don't take my word run this search link below
https://www.google.com/search?q=protein+powder+horror+stories&client=firefox-b-d&ei=ej9_YP6bLNKi1fAP5o-N2Ao&oq=protein+powder+horror+stories&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAM6BwgAEEcQsAM6BAghEApQ-4YcWKiwHGDmsxxoBnACeACAAVmIAcUIkgECMTSYAQCgAQGqAQdnd3Mtd2l6yAEIwAEB&sclient=gws-wiz&ved=0ahUKEwj-wPmy2o3wAhVSURUIHeZHA6sQ4dUDCBg&uact=5

Alf Veedersane

markmoto wrote: »

I would never advise anyone to consume any kind of protein powders, do you really know what you buying and mixing into your shake? Regardless of the brand you get your self exposed to variety of problems from liver, kidney damage to poisoning. Rather eat food high in protein Eggs, chicken, read meat etc.


But don't take my word run this search link below
https://www.google.com/search?q=protein+powder+horror+stories&client=firefox-b-d&ei=ej9_YP6bLNKi1fAP5o-N2Ao&oq=protein+powder+horror+stories&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAM6BwgAEEcQsAM6BAghEApQ-4YcWKiwHGDmsxxoBnACeACAAVmIAcUIkgECMTSYAQCgAQGqAQdnd3Mtd2l6yAEIwAEB&sclient=gws-wiz&ved=0ahUKEwj-wPmy2o3wAhVSURUIHeZHA6sQ4dUDCBg&uact=5

Mostly American sites...different ball game there.

Most of the ones available here aren't going to cause liver or kidney damage.

But it's a supplement. People should be getting most of their protein from food and supplementing if necessary.

Cill94

markmoto wrote: »

But don't take my word run this search link below
https://www.google.com/search?q=protein+powder+horror+stories&client=firefox-b-d&ei=ej9_YP6bLNKi1fAP5o-N2Ao&oq=protein+powder+horror+stories&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAM6BwgAEEcQsAM6BAghEApQ-4YcWKiwHGDmsxxoBnACeACAAVmIAcUIkgECMTSYAQCgAQGqAQdnd3Mtd2l6yAEIwAEB&sclient=gws-wiz&ved=0ahUKEwj-wPmy2o3wAhVSURUIHeZHA6sQ4dUDCBg&uact=5

Hahahahahaha

worlds goodest teecher

I have been taking whey powder for a long time now with little impact. I am beginning to wonder if taurine would be better in terms of muscle pain. If i could resolve the post exercise leg pain and brain fog I would probably get more exercise and retain muscle.

markmoto

worlds goodest teecher wrote: »

I have been taking whey powder for a long time now with little impact. I am beginning to wonder if taurine would be better in terms of muscle pain. If i could resolve the post exercise leg pain and brain fog I would probably get more exercise and retain muscle.

If someone shows me a scientific (not observational) study that Branched-chain amino acids significantly increases muscle build (without taking any form of steroids) I would be very grateful.

Unfortunately, study below shows an excess amount of protein consumption rather decrease protein synthesis.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5568273/

Alf Veedersane

markmoto wrote: »

If someone shows me a scientific (not observational) study that Branched-chain amino acids significantly increases muscle build (without taking any form of steroids) I would be very grateful.

Unfortunately, study below shows an excess amount of protein consumption rather decrease protein synthesis.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5568273/

Why are you referencing BCAAs and butchering the findings of a study?

Protein synthesis is limited by the least available essential amino acid so it's no surprise that an infusion of BCAAs alone might decrease MPS in a study.

Alf Veedersane

worlds goodest teecher wrote: »

I have been taking whey powder for a long time now with little impact. I am beginning to wonder if taurine would be better in terms of muscle pain. If i could resolve the post exercise leg pain and brain fog I would probably get more exercise and retain muscle.

Are you feeling pain from your exercise as a result of your illness? Have you consulted with your doctor about what you should and shouldn't do?

What you do for exercise is really important...you need to be providing sufficient stimulus for your muscle. Whey protein won't help you on it's own.

Cill94

markmoto wrote: »

If someone shows me a scientific (not observational) study that Branched-chain amino acids significantly increases muscle build (without taking any form of steroids) I would be very grateful.

Unfortunately, study below shows an excess amount of protein consumption rather decrease protein synthesis.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5568273/

You don’t understand what scientific research is or how to appraise it.

markmoto

worlds goodest teecher wrote: »

As I mentioned I am looking to use it for muscle retention not bulking up. I suffer from severe fatigue and exercise can be short in duration and nothing strenuous.

A couple of people i know using whey put on significant weight (not muscle), i would like to avoid this.

Extreme fatigue one of the signs of liver congestion. To break down protein requires certain enzymes and acids for that requires a variety of trace minerals & vitamins.

Alf Veedersane

markmoto wrote: »

Extreme fatigue one of the signs of liver congestion. To break down protein requires certain enzymes and acids and that requires a variety of trace minerals & vitamins.

Given that you've already demonstrated that you can't tell the difference between taurine and BCAAs or BCAAs and protein, then why are you trying to still trying to give advice on this?

Have you read the OP? It included reference to a long term illness....and you're still taking about protein being the main reason for fatigue?

markmoto

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Given that you've ready demonstrated that you can't tell the difference between taurine and BCAAs or BCAAs and protein, then why are you trying to still trying to give advice on this?

Have you read the OP? It included reference to a long term illness....and you're still taking about protein?

I know very well about protein synthesises and body nutritional requirements.
However, I am not here to argue with you or anyone else rather giving my opinion on the side effects of taking protein powder.

After all, the choice is yours.

Or perhaps you want to demonstrate your own knowledge backed by scientific research that taking protein powder significantly improves muscle build and wellbeing?

markmoto

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Have you read the OP? It included reference to a long term illness....and you're still taking about protein being the main reason for fatigue?

If OP has a certain medical condition s/he should go to the doctor for advice. Forum rules won't allow him to discuss that.

Alf Veedersane

markmoto wrote: »

I know very well about protein synthesises and body nutritional requirements.
However, I am not here to argue with you or anyone else rather giving my opinion on the side effects of taking protein powder.

After all, the choice is yours.

Or perhaps you want to demonstrate your own knowledge backed by scientific research that taking protein powder significantly improves muscle build and wellbeing?

You haven't even addressed the fact that the OP asked about taurine and you mentioned BCAAs, linked a study about BCAAs and then said it said that too much protein decreases muscle protein synthesis. Wrong on every count.

You are anti-protein powder and that's fine.

But you're presenting science that you don't seem to understand to make a point that the papers you link don't support.

markmoto

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

You haven't even addressed the fact that the OP asked about taurine and you mentioned BCAAs, linked a study about BCAAs and then said it said that too much protein decreases muscle protein synthesis. Wrong on every count.

You are anti-protein powder and that's fine.

But you're presenting science that you don't seem to understand to make a point that the papers you link don't support.

Sorry bud not here to entertain your arguments
Read here already said everything I want https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=116984626&postcount=21

Alf Veedersane

markmoto wrote: »

Sorry bud not here to entertain your arguments
Read here already said everything I want https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=116984626&postcount=21

Your first contribution to the thread was to disagree with me on the basis of a paper that you didn't understand.

If you want to make a point, at least understand the evidence you present to support it. You haven't. Leave it at "try get your protein from food", which I am pn board with.

But don't start presenting nonsense as a reason to avoid whey protein supplements.

markmoto

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

But don't start presenting nonsense as a reason to avoid whey protein supplements.

Protein shakes not require right before or after workout, most body heal & repairs happen overnights and all protein shakes scheme absolute nonsense from a scientific or bodybuilding point of view.

Just another trend running around with fancy looking shakes.

But here is real stories about protein powders:


Harvard: Real danger of protein powder
https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/the-hidden-dangers-of-protein-powders


Girl 25 died after consuming protein powder
https://www.thesun.co.uk/fabulous/9509052/mum-protein-shake-warning-daugther-diet/


5 reasons to avoid protein powder
https://plantbasednews.org/lifestyle/5-reasons-why-whey-protein-is-bad-for-your-health-and-the-planet/


Can do copy & paste all day long but check this out

https://www.google.com/search?q=protein+powder+horror+stories&client=firefox-b-d&biw=1920&bih=867&ei=it6DYOHbJa7S1fAP07-LyAQ&oq=protein+powder+horror+stories&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAM6BwgAEEcQsAM6BAghEApQ0v8DWKmWBGCFmgRoAXACeACAAXWIAYYGkgEDOS4xmAEAoAEBqgEHZ3dzLXdpesgBCMABAQ&sclient=gws-wiz&ved=0ahUKEwjhyNrTwpbwAhUuaRUIHdPfAkk4ChDh1QMIDQ&uact=5

Alf Veedersane

Jesus wept. Drop the shovel.

We're not in America, for a start. Plant based link had 5 reasons, two being related to dairy (and one of lactose intolerance) and one the environment.

The Sun (ffs) has a story abouta girl with a disorder that can't process the amount of protein she was ingesting. Not relevant either. No one is talking about consuming to excess. As with anything, the dose is the poison.

Tell me again what BCAAs have to do with taurine?

Cill94

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Jesus wept. Drop the shovel.

We're not in America, for a start. Plant based link had 5 reasons, two being related to dairy (and one of lactose intolerance) and one the environment.

The Sun (ffs) has a story abouta girl with a disorder that can't process the amount of protein she was ingesting. Not relevant either. No one is talking about consuming to excess. As with anything, the dose is the poison.

Tell me again what BCAAs have to do with taurine?

Mark considers observational studies to be non-scientific, whilst simultaneously citing tabloid articles as evidence.

You might be wasting your time here.

Alf Veedersane

Cill94 wrote: »

Mark considers observational studies to be non-scientific, whilst simultaneously citing tabloid articles as evidence.

You might be wasting your time here.

I'm really just here to hear what taurine has to do with BCAAs at this point.

Cill94

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

I'm really just here to hear what taurine has to do with BCAAs at this point.

I'm sure the arbiters of truth at The Sun and PlantBasednews.org will have all the answers you need.

markmoto

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Tell me again what BCAAs have to do with taurine?

I have never mention anything about taurine in any of my comments yet. My reply was to first sentence about protein powder intake.

worlds goodest teecher wrote: »

I have been taking whey powder for a long time now with little impact. .

My key points to this thread; protein powder useless by all means and taking excess amount of protein rather decrease protein synthesis. For building muscle protein alone not enough.

Alf Veedersane

markmoto wrote: »

I have never mention anything about taurine in any of my comments yet. My reply was to first sentence about protein powder intake.

Here, the OP asked about using taurine and you responded about BCAAs, linked to a study on BCAAs and took the finding to mean that excess protein causes a decrease in MPS. Which was nothing like what the study suggested. Please read the study again and try to understand it.

markmoto wrote: »

My key points to this thread; protein powder useless by all means and taking excess amount of protein rather decrease protein synthesis. For building muscle protein alone not enough.

No one suggested protein powder alone would build muscle. It's to supplement.

The study you referenced said nothing about excess protein causing a decrease in MPS. It suggested excess BCAAs might but EAAs are the limiting factor. Whey protein would have both BCAAs and EAAs. You're confusing protein and BCAAs (and taurine) somehow. And you've misunderstood/misinterpreted any studies you have linked so far.

markmoto

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

The study you referenced said nothing about excess protein causing a decrease in MPS. It suggested excess BCAAs might but EAAs are the limiting factor. Whey protein would have both BCAAs and EAAs. You're confusing protein and BCAAs (and taurine) somehow. And you've misunderstood/misinterpreted any studies you have linked so far.

Reading scientific studies not easy it takes time to read between the lines. Don't worry about that.

Another study

Excess amount of protein also cause of Disorders and health risks
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4045293/

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

A scoop of whey made with water is ~ 135 calories.

They put on weight because they had a poor diet. Not because of whey.

Nope. They put on the weight of consuming too much protein.
Excess amino acids get converted to carbohydrates or fat. Thus, it seems that additional protein intake will not directly increase muscle growth, strength, or physical performance and could even lead to weight gain and fat deposition, which are surely negative consequences for any athlete.
https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/health-you-asked/extra-protein-extra-performance
(easy readable) https://www.healthline.com/health/too-much-protein#risks

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Increased insulin doesn't cause weight gain in and of itself. And the increased insulin has nothing to do with blood glucose and is a response to amino acids, as per that study, which is very relevant.

An increase of protein intake increased the risk of diabetes by 38% in an aboriginal community in Canada (Wolever et al. 1997).
That amino acids may contribute to insulin resistance was concluded from results of a recent study in myotube cells.
https://academic.oup.com/jn/article/130/4/886/4686684



I am out of this thread no more replies. Happy reading.

Alf Veedersane

markmoto wrote: »

Reading scientific studies not easy it takes time to read between the lines. Don't worry about that.

Don't link to them if you haven't read them.

Exhibit A:

"markmoto wrote:

Another study

Excess amount of protein also cause of Disorders and health risks
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4045293/

Remember how you came into the thread to saw protein from food = good, protein from powder = bad (and now have gone to protein is bad in excess)? Lot of references to animal protein, red meat, processed meat as being the risk factors. It appears you either didn't read that or chose to ignore it. Either way, it's another meaningless link.

markmoto wrote:

Nope. They put on the weight of consuming too much protein.
Excess amino acids get converted to carbohydrates or fat. Thus, it seems that additional protein intake will not directly increase muscle growth, strength, or physical performance and could even lead to weight gain and fat deposition, which are surely negative consequences for any athlete.
https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/health-you-asked/extra-protein-extra-performance
(easy readable) https://www.healthline.com/health/too-much-protein#risks

That article by the doctor shows an embarrassingly low level of understanding of what happens. Excess amino acids will ultimately be excreted. You're not storing fat without a caloric surplus.

But maybe you should tell those high level athletes that protein will make them fat.

markmoto wrote:

An increase of protein intake increased the risk of diabetes by 38% in an aboriginal community in Canada (Wolever et al. 1997).

Anything on pygmies living in Northern Ireland? Just we can definitively make a commentary about most people?

markmoto wrote:

I am out of this thread no more replies. Happy reading.

I've probably read them before you.

worlds goodest teecher

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Are you feeling pain from your exercise as a result of your illness? Have you consulted with your doctor about what you should and shouldn't do?

What you do for exercise is really important...you need to be providing sufficient stimulus for your muscle. Whey protein won't help you on it's own.

I have ataxia following brain surgery. Very low capacity for exercise and have lost muscle in legs/arms. When I do have exercise my muscles ache for days. I asked my neurosurgery is whey might help and he told me it might. So no real scientific reasoning behind taking it. Just trying to improve quality of life and build up a bit of stamina for exercise.

Alf Veedersane

worlds goodest teecher wrote: »

I have ataxia following brain surgery. Very low capacity for exercise and have lost muscle in legs/arms. When I do have exercise my muscles ache for days. I asked my neurosurgery is whey might help and he told me it might. So no real scientific reasoning behind taking it. Just trying to improve quality of life and build up a bit of stamina for exercise.

Without wanting to get into the realm of telling you what you should do as regards exercise, as I have no idea how much you have told you could/should do, but if you're aching for days after it maybe consider scaling back up so that you're not aching for days and then build up slowly from there.

worlds goodest teecher

markmoto wrote: »

Extreme fatigue one of the signs of liver congestion. To break down protein requires certain enzymes and acids for that requires a variety of trace minerals & vitamins.

I had brain radiotherapy 11 years ago, which definitely had an impact. I was assessed by a neurologist for Parkinson's which they told me was unlikely. I have spoken to someone with a similar, but not exactly the same, and they told me that taurine was helpful for them with regards muscle repair.

markmoto

worlds goodest teecher wrote: »

I had brain radiotherapy 11 years ago, which definitely had an impact. I was assessed by a neurologist for Parkinson's which they told me was unlikely. I have spoken to someone with a similar, but not exactly the same, and they told me that taurine was helpful for them with regards muscle repair.

Hi,

I suggest getting a referral to an experienced dietitian doctor who can build your diet. Also, ask what s/he would think about intermittent fasting +(or) periodic prolonged fasting 40-72+ hours.

A number of scientific studies showing excellent results in neurology.

You have a serious medical condition and taurine, not a miracle. Go to Doctor.

worlds goodest teecher

OK I'm back to looking into protein powder options again. Have been using Myprotein products for the past couple of years. Only real problem with them is that a lot of what I consume is out of stock.

I am probably taking a wrong protein as I am having difficulty digesting food. It just sits in my stomach. I wish to continue taking protein powder but the right one. Note as I probably mentioned earlier in the thread the protein is to help with retaining muscle and energy from a disability as opposed to bulking up.

I've had whey isolate and casein and now I am using pea protein. They are doing what I had hoped that they would but I have a feeling that they might be affecting my ability to digest food.

I am now considering overnight oats from protein works. I have never used them before. Are they good/bad quality and price?

Bobby_Bolivia

Your understanding of protein hasn't improved in the last few years I see. What do you mean by "a wrong protein"? Are you lactose intolerant? What is your typical serving size of protein powder?

You say you have difficulty digesting food - how much fibre are you getting in your diet? What does your diet look like? You'd be better off listing a typical day of eating, because protein powder in and of itself is unlikely to be the reason that food "sits in your stomach".

Protein powder doesn't care whether your goal is retaining muscle or bulking up the same way as a chicken breast or tin of tuna doesn't care. There are multiple factors which will determine those things, not just protein powder. It isn't magic powder, it's just a convenient way to get protein in.

I'd wager nobody has bought "Overnight Oats from Protein Works" because mixing protein powder and oats is not something that people need to pay companies extra money to do for them.

worlds goodest teecher

Okay I am phrasing my question incorrectly. Shaking protein powder with water is making me incredibly bloated and sluggish. I read somewhere that shaking creates air which can effect the digestive system. I am looking for a better way of taking it. I thought at the beginning that I was lactose intolerant but have been taking pea protein powder for several months and still fell the same. There is no doubt in my mind that it has a positive impact it just I feel crap during the day.

Maybe there is a different way to consume it? I have started putting it in porridge.