New LED light tripping switch

karlitob

Hi all

Appreciate any advice.

Have had an open lighting wire hanging from my ceiling for 10 years - I know, I know.

Had a halogen bulb ceiling pendant on for about a month 6 years ago - pendant glass cracked so took the whole fitting back.

Anyway bought this today - when I flicked it on - lights tripped. Reset the trip - all other lights on the ring are fine. But then this tripped it again.

The only difficulty I had installing is that the earth wire from ceiling is thin and stiff so a bit awkward getting it in the block.

All three are cinched tight; there’s ferrules on the live and earth; I sank new screws/plugs but didn’t hit anything.


Any suggestions?


Thanks as always.

https://www.eurosales.ie/sites/admin/plugins/elfinder/files/eurosales/factsheets/ANSGU10SC.pdf

karlitob

Pic

Lenar3556

Unlikely to be anything other than a cable short, potentially within the fitting itself.

If you disconnect just the live conductor from the fitting and switch on the light switch does it trip?

If not connect it again and see does it work before you screw it back up again.

Obviously take precautions against shock.

fiacha

Have you checked the connections on the other end of the cable run ?

karlitob

Lenar3556 wrote: »

Obviously take precautions against shock.

A tag line for life!!!

Will do and revert. Thanks

karlitob

fiacha wrote: »

Have you checked the connections on the other end of the cable run ?

Not very knowledgeable with electrics - but do you mean the switch or the connections in the next luminaire.

karlitob

Lenar3556 wrote: »

Unlikely to be anything other than a cable short, potentially within the fitting itself.

If you disconnect just the live conductor from the fitting and switch on the light switch does it trip?

If not connect it again and see does it work before you screw it back up again.

Obviously take precautions against shock.

Took the live out, flicked the switch - tripped.

What does that mean?

(I do like learning about these things)


Oh and I might be dreaming it but the switch seems stiffer after it first tripped. Probably imagining it.

Chawosfski

karlitob wrote: »

Took the live out, flicked the switch - tripped.

What does that mean?

(I do like learning about these things)


Oh and I might be dreaming it but the switch seems stiffer after it first tripped. Probably imagining it.

They go stiff after they switch a short circuit

What you're describing seems odd, like you've shorted the cable with a screw

Presumably the switch wasn't taped up and wasn't shorting before now

meercat

karlitob wrote: »

Oh and I might be dreaming it but the switch seems stiffer after it first tripped. Probably imagining it.

When the trip switch shorted the contacts on the light switch arced causing this

punisher5112

Loose connection or neutral fault or damaged cable.

meercat

Try disconnecting the light completely and put the wires in connector blocks.
Switch on and see does anything trip
It may be a faulty light fitting as others have said.

Chawosfski

meercat wrote: »

Try disconnecting the light completely and put the wires in connector blocks.
Switch on and see does anything trip
It may be a faulty light fitting as others have said.

He said he disconnected the switched live

meercat

Chawosfski wrote: »

He said he disconnected the switched live

He may have disconnected the live(brown cable )but it’s possibly reversed polarity

Chawosfski

meercat wrote: »

He may have disconnected the live(brown cable )but it’s possibly reversed polarity

Possibility but not highly likely

Lenar3556

karlitob wrote: »

Took the live out, flicked the switch - tripped.

What does that mean?

(I do like learning about these things)


Oh and I might be dreaming it but the switch seems stiffer after it first tripped. Probably imagining it.

Suggests that the live wire going from the switch to the fitting is shorted to either neutral or earth. A damaged cable probably.

karlitob

Chawosfski wrote: »

They go stiff after they switch a short circuit

What you're describing seems odd, like you've shorted the cable with a screw

Presumably the switch wasn't taped up and wasn't shorting before now

Nope. I had the live and neutral in a terminal block and the earth was in a brass block. It was what was left of the last fitting. But as I say - nothing on it for 10 years. Just hanging there. And no shorting at all. There’s a bathroom light, 2 utility lights, 4 kitchen leds, and a 12v 1m led strip, 2 small under cabinet tubes and then light on the ring.

Only the led strip - which I’ve now disconnected - and this fitting are on this switch.

I suppose I can take down the fitting and have a better look at all connections.

karlitob

Chawosfski wrote: »

Possibility but not highly likely

There’s only 3 wires - the live, the neutral and unsheathed (which I presume is the earth). Not sure there’s a switched live. See pic.

karlitob

Lenar3556 wrote: »

Suggests that the live wire going from the switch to the fitting is shorted to either neutral or earth. A damaged cable probably.

Thanks.

Why do you think this wasn’t this a problem with the last light I put in.

meercat

karlitob wrote: »

Only the led strip - which I’ve now disconnected - and this fitting are on this switch.

.

And how was the led strip connected

Lenar3556

karlitob wrote: »

Thanks.

Why do you think this wasn’t this a problem with the last light I put in.

Might be just after happening. Live to earth (that bare conductor which you should place a sleeve over) is the most likely issue - my guess would be it’s touching the brown at or close to the fitting. It’s easy to put a screw up through the cable too.

karlitob

meercat wrote: »

And how was the led strip connected

Mains to 12v transformer to 2.1mm Jack to stripe. Now disconnected at the Jack.

karlitob

Lenar3556 wrote: »

Might be just after happening. Live to earth (that bare conductor which you should place a sleeve over) is the most likely issue - my guess would be it’s touching the brown at or close to the fitting. It’s easy to put a screw up through the cable too.

Thanks for that. What do you think from the pic. They don’t look to be touching.

When I unscrewed the live - and I pulled it right out of the way - it still tripped.

I did sink new holes but there’s no change in the slack on the wire - it’s stiff, there’s not much pull on it but it’s the same as before I went at it.

I really don’t think I went through it. There’s only plasterboard, drilled my holes, in with my plugs and then screws.

If I did hit it, what’s the fix. Would taking out the screw work?

meercat

karlitob wrote: »

Mains to 12v transformer to 2.1mm Jack to stripe. Now disconnected at the Jack.

Disconnect the led completely (put cables in connector blocks)

Reconnect spot light (don’t screw it up)

Switch it on

This will help identify which light is the issue

karlitob

Not sure how useful this is but the fixture does work.

And just checked again - I didn’t hit the wire. No where near it.

karlitob

meercat wrote: »

Disconnect the led completely (put cables in connector blocks)

Reconnect spot light (don’t screw it up)

Switch it on

This will help identify which light is the issue

I won’t screw it up!

(I’m sure it’s a very old electricians joke but I enjoyed it)

karlitob

meercat wrote: »

Disconnect the led completely (put cables in connector blocks)

Reconnect spot light (don’t screw it up)

Switch it on

This will help identify which light is the issue

Did that. Still popped.

Chawosfski

karlitob wrote: »

Did that. Still popped.

Don't like to see those:

No sleeving on the cpc(earth), non rcd protected circuit most likely

Twisting the solids in the other pic

karlitob

Chawosfski wrote: »

Don't like to see those:

No sleeving on the cpc(earth), non rcd protected circuit most likely

Twisting the solids in the other pic

Completely new rewire 10 years ago.

Would I not have an rcd protected circuit?

Chawosfski

karlitob wrote: »

Completely new rewire 10 years ago.

Would I not have an rcd protected circuit?

Not on the lites 10 yrs ago

No sleeving or rcd is not a great combination in general

Twisting solids is a bad habit , they tend to break

karlitob

Chawosfski wrote: »

Not on the lites 10 yrs ago

No sleeving or rcd is not a great combination in general

Twisting solids is a bad habit , they tend to break

Well I had many problems with the electrician. Many!

Are you saying that the absence of a sleeve is causing it to short on the hot?

How do I - or even can I - put an rcd in? Am I right in saying that the rcd is a form of protection in the event of shorting? If so, is it not already shorting and tripping thereby protecting me.

What do you suggest?

Chawosfski

karlitob wrote: »

Well I had many problems with the electrician. Many!

Are you saying that the absence of a sleeve is causing it to short on the hot?

How do I - or even can I - put an rcd in?

What do you suggest?

No it's just bad practice and against regulations

Rcds , sure you can call a Rec and the best option is to fit rcbos
(Recs probably not interested in this type of work ,too much risk of comeback)

If you're concerned call a Rec about the installation

karlitob

Chawosfski wrote: »

No it's just bad practice and against regulations

Rcds , sure you can call a rec and the best option is to fit rcbos

If you're concerned call a Rec about the installation

No - I’m not concerned. You had mentioned it in your last post.

If I get an Rcbo fitted will that stop it tripping?

Chawosfski

karlitob wrote: »

No - I’m not concerned. You had mentioned it in your last post.

If I get an Rcbo fitted will that stop it tripping?

I pointed out a couple of bad habits , rcbos are not your issue here

Unfortunately if you're so concerned about safety ,.maybe get a Rec to do your work in future

karlitob

Chawosfski wrote: »

I pointed out a couple of bad habits , rcbos are not your issue here

Unfortunately if you're so concerned about safety ,.maybe get a Rec to do your work in future

Thanks for your time in pointing out the RECs bad habits.

I not “concerned about safety”. I’m just asking for help as to why a new light fitting could trip and what I can do about it. You mentioned sheaths and rcbs and rcbos and recs, but that none of these things were the cause.

Any advice as to how to fix this would be grateful. Appreciate you taking the time to post.

Chawosfski

karlitob wrote: »

Thanks for your time in pointing out the RECs bad habits.

I not “concerned about safety”. I’m just asking for help as to why a new light fitting could trip and what I can do about it. You mentioned sheaths and rcbs and rcbos and recs, but that none of these things were the cause.

Any advice as to how to fix this would be grateful. Appreciate you taking the time to post.

Sheathing can be a contributory factor to tripping

These are general points i'm making , not specific to your fault

karlitob

Chawosfski wrote: »

Sheathing can be a contributory factor to tripping

These are general points i'm making , not specific to your fault

Where the unsheathed earth goes into the terminal block - could I wire that directly into the earth on the fixture support. Could that help?

whizbang

Which number switch on the main board is popping ?

Better to have all wires into terminal block, but no difference in electrical terms.

Does it trip with only the bare earth disconnected ?

meercat

karlitob wrote: »

Did that. Still popped.

Now disconnect the spotlight and reconnect the led strip light and see what happens

karlitob

meercat wrote: »

Now disconnect the spotlight and reconnect the led strip light and see what happens

So
- tried just having the earth in the terminal block. Still tripped
- trip number 16 on the consumer unit
- I tested for continuity (200 ohms on multimeter) on the wires for this light: live to neutral (no continuity), live to earth (no continuity), earth to neutral (01.3). Not sure what that means.
- I tested continuity on the wires feeding the LED strip. Same as above.
- I reconnected the LED and disconnected the new light fitting. Did not trip.

So

Should I try a normal bulb on this and see what happens?
It’s a metal casing, could that be an issue?

Thanks for your help meercat.

karlitob

Just knocked in another lampholder and halogen light I was working on - no problems at all.

Just to say, that the new LED spotlight luminaire trips with and without a gu10 in it.

I’ve also - for some reason most likely cos I have it - have tested all components in the luminaire with a multimeter. Everything seems fine.

Not sure if it makes a difference but the lamp holder I knocked in was a 12v transformer to two g4 halogen lamps for the bedroom.

rob w

karlitob wrote: »

Not sure how useful this is but the fixture does work.

And just checked again - I didn’t hit the wire. No where near it.

The light is working in this picture, but with no earth connected to the metal plate. It is possible that there is a short circuit to the metal plate (from the connector block on the plate) that is tripping when its earthed. It doesn't seem to be your wiring as I see you have another light working in its place now.

karlitob

rob w wrote: »

The light is working in this picture, but with no earth connected to the metal plate. It is possible that there is a short circuit to the metal plate (from the connector block on the plate) that is tripping when its earthed. It doesn't seem to be your wiring as I see you have another light working in its place now.

Yeah I had wondered that alright - whether it’s an issue with the earth or the initial power going through it. The new luminaire trips with all or each (L, E and N) in separately and both with and without a gu10 in. And without any other light on that switch. So I don’t think it’s a power / loading thing.

It’s a metal casing and the instructions are keen for earthing. There does seem to be a lot of earth wires.

Why does it need to earth to the fixing plate. Could I reduce the number of earth wires?

karlitob

Perhaps the second wire isn’t needed if the ring only has two core. In other words, if there’s 3 core only one of those earths are needed. If there’s a 2 core then 2 of those earths are needed.

Am I miles off the Mark?

Chawosfski

A new house should definitely fix this

But there's always a chance the new house could have the same problem

karlitob

Chawosfski wrote: »

A new house should definitely fix this

But there's always a chance the new house could have the same problem

It is new!

What do you think about the earthing?

karlitob

Fixed.

Spot the difference.

rob w

karlitob wrote: »

Fixed.

Spot the difference.

If that has fixed it, there was potentially a short from the earthed metal bracket on the ceiling to a live conductor. It may now be live itself as you have disconnected the earth. It was there for a reason and that's why it was tripping.

Have you fixed the light back up to the bracket yet?

karlitob

karlitob wrote: »

Fixed.

Spot the difference.

Noooooooooooo!!!!!


It worked. Then I screwed the fixture up. Then it popped again. Arghhhhh!!!!

karlitob

rob w wrote: »

If that has fixed it, there was potentially a short from the earthed metal bracket on the ceiling to a live conductor. It may now be live itself as you have disconnected the earth. It was there for a reason and that's why it was tripping.

Have you fixed the light back up to the bracket yet?

See above

Popped again once I screwed it back up. I had wondered if the extra earth if there was only 2 core rather than 3 core.

So - where am I?

I’ve multimeter’d the luminaire. Everything makes sense.

I’ve multimeter’d the ceiling wires - I think they all make sense (the earth and live on 200ohm showed a read of 01.3).

I’ve put different fixtures in - albeit without an earth.

I’ve tried each wire (l,n and earth) in only - all trip.

The only permutation I haven’t tried is to fit it fully - screw it up and see what happens?

It’s getting tiring at this stage!

Thanks for help.

punisher5112

Your screwed into the cable at the fittin fixing anchor.

karlitob

punisher5112 wrote: »

Your screwed into the cable at the fittin fixing anchor.

That makes sense. But I really haven’t. I’m nowhere near where the wire is coming from.