The last smoke in Amsterdam

Potential-Monke

Tomaldo wrote: »

Or we could use other statistical anomalies such as Steve Jobs, The Beatles, Rolling Stones, Adam Clayton and Ronnie O'Sullivan.

And Snoop Dogg, Bob Marley, Willie Nelson, Bob Dylan, Bill Maher, Seth Rogan...

Or some highly successful CEO's.

Etc.

JustAThought

Or you could go down to the methodone centres in Dun Laoghaire, Pearse St or Amiens St or the drug drop in centre in Merchants Quay and ask them how they got started. And the thousands who passed through our jails because of drug crime. Not all drug users are billionaires - most are pitiful and the majority become isolated social rejects.

I’m not surprised the citizens of Amsterdam are fed up with the massive drug tourism - I wouldn’t like it for Dublin either.

SeanW

JustAThought wrote: »

Or you could go down to the methodone centres in Dun Laoghaire, Pearse St or Amiens St or the drug drop in centre in Merchants Quay and ask them how they got started. And the thousands who passed through our jails because of drug crime. Not all drug users are billionaires - most are pitiful and the majority become isolated social rejects.

I’m not surprised the citizens of Amsterdam are fed up with the massive drug tourism - I wouldn’t like it for Dublin either.

How many people end up in methadone clinics because they smoked weed they bought in a legal coffee shop?

GT89

JustAThought wrote: »

Or you could go down to the methodone centres in Dun Laoghaire, Pearse St or Amiens St or the drug drop in centre in Merchants Quay and ask them how they got started. And the thousands who passed through our jails because of drug crime. Not all drug users are billionaires - most are pitiful and the majority become isolated social rejects.

I’m not surprised the citizens of Amsterdam are fed up with the massive drug tourism - I wouldn’t like it for Dublin either.

I don't think the average junkie on methadone would be going to Amsterdam. It's more so a Magaluf type destination except it's a normal city and not a resort rather than a place for people who are into serious drugs.

doublejobbing 2

Treppen wrote: »

Few of my old college friends still partake regularly. Not my cup of tea, but they're doing no harm.
One is senior position in council.
Another is currently prepping his factory or idea (whatever it is!) To be bought out by multinational.
Another is a barrister for a large financial organisation.
Another has their own DIY shop
Accountant
Events organiser
Engineers
Software Engineer
Big pharma !

They wouldn't wake and bake !

I stopped reading there.

If you get a group of 100 people who buy alcohol on a weekly basis, and 100 who buy cannabis once per week, what percentage of the drinkers, vs the smokers, do you believe drink in bed, on their way to work, and at work?

Even the alcoholics who also smoke weed will be more likely to smoke in bed, in work etc, as after years of training. It's harder for an employer to send you home for being stoned than if he can smell drink on you, after all.

Weed is good for a laugh, but it is poison to a great deal of its users.

Thelonious Monk

I mean anything that gets you out of it in any way is not good for lots of people. I like some weed now and again, for me it's harmless enough, but I wouldn't partake nightly or anything because it leaves me too fuzzy headed the next day and I can't concentrate properly.
Compared to booze though it's totally harmless, for me anyway.

TheSegal

doublejobbing 2 wrote: »

I stopped reading there.

If you get a group of 100 people who buy alcohol on a weekly basis, and 100 who buy cannabis once per week, what percentage of the drinkers, vs the smokers, do you believe drink in bed, on their way to work, and at work?

Even the alcoholics who also smoke weed will be more likely to smoke in bed, in work etc, as after years of training. It's harder for an employer to send you home for being stoned than if he can smell drink on you, after all.

Weed is good for a laugh, but it is poison to a great deal of its users.

Quite the chip on your shoulder about cannabis. You know some useless people who smoke, I know some useless people who smoke but I know far more successful people than useless stoner stereotypes. Smoked in college because I liked having some to unwind on a Friday evening after training with my housemates, I now have a PhD in engineering and so do the two guys I lived with during my time in university despite us consuming cannabis. I still consume cannabis now after finishing college, I like to think I am pretty successful owning a house, having a good job, etc... so you can take your generalised thoughts on "stoners" and go back to the 50s with your nonsense thought process

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

smellyoldboot wrote: »

But you're not happy and living your life the way you want are you? You reach for that crutch to numb it out. Make you forget. Make it go away.

You mean "escapism"? Everyone does that.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

smellyoldboot wrote: »

If you see it as essential to relax then yes. In fact we generally recognise that very attitude to alcohol as the massive red flare it is. It's very very common for regular weed smokers to think exactly like that though and they rarely recognise it as (psychological) dependance because of course its not addictive, right?

Therein lies the bad argument: sometimes, people do it not to relax but to enjoy something. They same way they drink tea, or beer, or smoke cigarettes, or watch football, or watch a movie, or go to the gym, or go jogging or go for a drive, and so on...

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

smellyoldboot wrote: »

We don't have to ban anything, in fact I'd be in favour of legalisation of everything with conditions, ie heroine and cocaine only available to chronic addicts and administered by prescription at sustenance levels while tapering off doses. Illegal selling is then still a crime but a matter for revenue who to be fair often seem far more efficient and voracious in chasing defaulters than an garda are capable of with our legislation.

But let's not cod ourselves that it's some harmless drug. Regular users, I refrain from using the addict term mostly, can be very bit as dependent on it as an alcoholic is on the drink. Legalising the substance doesn't really make its abuse any more acceptable. If anything it just brings it into the limelight and the issue can be better tackled.

I tbought you sid you were going to refrain from using the "addict" term...?

The porblems with your arguements is that you don't actually know what "drugs" are, you are totally dependent on the conformed contmporary veiwpoint and unable to reseach indenpedently or engage in logical throught specific to the issue; and you have no idea of the difference between the words "use", "abuse" and "addicted"; and you feel the need to cover this up by insulting and labeling everyone who CAN think and define and engage as "wasters".

smellyoldboot

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

The porblems with your arguements is that you don't actually know what "drugs" are, you are totally dependent on the conformed contmporary veiwpoint .

AHAHAHAHA. Bananahammock is about right for you ffs. Goway ta fcuk ya dope ya.

#You'reSoReal

smellyoldboot

smellyoldboot wrote: »

AHAHAHAHA. Bananahammock is about right for you ffs. Goway ta fcuk ya dope ya.

#You'reSoReal

Mod:
Do not post in this thread again.

ILoveYourVibes

Removing drugs isn't going to push Amsterdam up market.

ShatterAlan

murpho999 wrote: »

The comparison to living in Temple Bar is a poor one as I think more people live in the city centre of Amsterdam than would in Dublin.

Either way Amsterdam has a rep for drugs and prostitution and they want to change that. The RLD is a centre for trafficking too.

Red Light on its way out and drugs going too.
Saying that locals would rather have tourists smoking is wrong too as Amsterdam has more to offer than RLD and coffee shops.

It's an historical city full of art and it wants to attract a different type of tourist. I know when I lived there I didn't enjoy going into the city and being hit by the smell of pot in the air as soon as you get off the train and a lot of the groups that it attracted (not all).

Either way it's up to the people of the city to do what they want and not tourists.

Utter, utter, bullshit.

ShatterAlan

Grayson wrote: »

I was there last year and it was horrendous. I was with a workmate who was visiting from downunder. We wandered through the red light district. It was shoulder to shoulder. They'd allow people to enter one side and leave one side. It was one of the most claustrophobic situations I've ever been in.

I heard they're going to move the RLD out of the centre and open up something where the sex workers can have some privacy. That's a great idea. And as for closing coffee shops to tourists, that's great too. The entire city centre is over run by tourists and it's destroying the city.

Amsterdam is a beautiful city but it's turned into a joke. I love the netherlands but I wouldn't recommend to anyone to go to Amsterdam. When I was there with a friend we booked a hotel well outside Amsterdam and caught a train in to see stuff.

I've lived in Amsterdam for 20 years and can attest that everything you've said in your post is drivel.

JustAThought

JustAThought wrote: »

Or you could go down to the methodone centres in Dun Laoghaire, Pearse St or Amiens St or the drug drop in centre in Merchants Quay and ask them how they got started.

And the answer most often is likely to be "with alcohol" but because we think of "alcohol" and "drugs" as separate things - very often people contrive to ignore the alcohol and blame the _next_ drug on the list as being the "Gateway" drug. A meaningless but oft used term.

Actually one could probably go further back than that. From refined sugar to caffeine and chocolate - we are a species that gravitate towards substances that are mood enhancers or consciousness modifiers in general. We start at it early and progress from there. A minority - sadly - progress too far and their excesses are often used by the biased to curtail the rights of the rest of us.

But focusing specifically on people in methodone centres is not going to be representative of the whole. As another user once put it - if you wanted to get a general picture of alcohol users and use as a whole - it would be pretty biased to focus entirely on the early houses down the docks. Or if you wanted to get a picture of homosexuals and their sexual practices as a whole - it would be pretty biased to focus entirely on the ones who show up in motorway rest stop toilets.

So getting a picture of a drug and it's use as a whole by "going down the clinic" is probably only going to give people the picture they already wanted to paint beforehand.

JustAThought wrote: »

I’m not surprised the citizens of Amsterdam are fed up with the massive drug tourism - I wouldn’t like it for Dublin either.

I would expect that people in tourist hotspots in general come to either hate it or barely tolerate it. I remember an article in the UK Indo in 2017 about how much the locals of Barcelona hate tourists.

The tourist hotspot we are discussing here happens to be one centered on drugs and sex. Temple bar is one centered on Alcohol and cheap cover music. Other tourist destinations based on beaches and sand - club music dances and raves - art and architecture - religion - or whatever also have their own issues. Tourist spots based on nature suffer from litter and erosion from the thoughtless uncaring masses who trounce all over it looking at it through camera lenses.

When a single destination becomes a focus of the masses - the locals will suffer even where they profit - cheap sellers of tat will show up - exploitation and people trying to make a quick buck will flock - and restaurants with pictures on the menus will abound - pickpockets and other scams.

The issue here is tourism focal points in other words - not the focus of their tourism.

But people already biased against the latter will of course jump on the former to make the latter look bad. Especially like - with sex work and weed - they have no actual arguments against those things in and of themselves. So they cling to whatever they can. Don't believe me? Go back over all the threads about weed and sex work and see how roundly trounced the "anti" side routinely has been.

doublejobbing 2 wrote: »

Weed is good for a laugh, but it is poison to a great deal of its users.

Specifics and citations needed. "great deal" is almost obsessively vague. But there is another issue with your post when you wrote "It's harder for an employer to send you home for being stoned than if he can smell drink on you, after all."

Take that thought further. It is _also_ therefore harder to spot the problem free smokers too. People - both with and without anti drug biases - tend to focus on the drug use of the people they _notice_. How could they do otherwise? The number of people using the drug - perfectly fine - is unknown to them because they simply do not even know they are users in the first place.

Alcohol use is more normalised too. Which means even when someone's use is not noticable or problematic - they will still tell you about it. Common coffee machine talk in offices is about how drunk one got that weekend for example. It is less normal to come in on monday and say "Oh yeah I had a joint and munched the bejaysus out of 10 monster munch packets". So once again - problem free use is simply under the radar which exacerbates the impression problem use will give.

The reason people think the use of certain drugs is problematic - is that by the time a person using that drug becomes noticeable they have become problematic. So this tends to be all people have to go on. Which is why every time a thread like this come up you get anecdotes along the lines of "All the people I know who smoke are - - - - ". But if you delete the anecdotes and focus on any actual arguments against the drug or it's use people offer - you find nothing there. They are putting up more of a cloud of smoke than a joint does

ShatterAlan

the_syco wrote: »

From the article, there are only 8 coffee shops left; I assume the rest are pubs that sell weed. Was over there about 9 years ago; only went to 6 of the coffee shops, but there was a load of pubs that sold weed.

=-=

The threatening people only come out after the coffee shops are closed, offering you the harder drugs, and will follow you back to your hostel if you don't tell them to eff off.

I don't know where the 8 figure comes from. I have an apartment on the Amstel and there are 5 coffeeshops within a 3 minute walk from my gaff.

doublejobbing 2

doublejobbing 2 wrote: »

Weed is good for a laugh, but it is poison to a great deal of its users.

The issue is one of age and demographics. I suspect most of the people you're thinking of, are quite young, relatively new to cannabis, don't know their limits, and have little going on in their lives. It's likely the same with the drinkers.

When you have a life, with responsibilities, such as work, along with the ambition to succeed at something, it's unlikely that anyone will allow their smoking habit to interfere with their ambition. Oh, it might encourage some procrastination, but that's a mental trick everyone needs to learn, even without drugs being involved.

I've been a smoker for over two decades. Both for recreation, and to moderate my shaking disorder. I know my limits. I know what types of cannabis work best for me. I know the effects it has on me, and the warning signs, that it's encouraging something negative. As do, most long-term smokers.. because they have the experience to know what is going on.

The stereotype of smokers is the teenager or the college student. It's rare that people really consider the wide range of people in their late 20s or 30s who continue to smoke, while having successful lifestyles. Why? Because it's simply easier to assume every stoner is a waster.

I know a lot of smokers. The vast majority smoke in moderation with occasional binges... but their smoking is under control. In fact, their overall lives tend to be better organised because of their experience from smoking, and the skills gained, in learning to compensate.

I find the people who rely on the stereotypes, generally, have little direct knowledge of smoking, either for themselves, or what it's like being a smoker past college, once you become serious about your chosen career.

You say it's poison for a great deal of it's users. I disagree. I'd say it's a very positive aid for them.. in all manner of ways. There's always going to be some who are weak willed, or have no direction for how their lives should develop.. they'd likely be that way without cannabis.

Kimbot

ShatterAlan wrote: »

I don't know where the 8 figure comes from. I have an apartment on the Amstel and there are 5 coffeeshops within a 3 minute walk from my gaff.

I was only over there 2 years ago, I can easily name at least 12-14 places that I know as fact that are still open for business and thats all in a small area so there is tonnes of coffee shops still open.

ShatterAlan

Aongus Von Bismarck wrote: »

I'm a big fan of the Dutch in general, and can see why the residents of Amsterdam have decided that enough is enough. Always known as being straight talking folks. Even though I live in Frankfurt I haven't been to Amsterdam that often, but when I have I always come away thinking a beautiful city has been tarnished by its association with drugs and sex work.

Move away from the centre, and you find a city that still has bars and restaurants that are hundreds of years old, beautiful art installations, contemporary architecture, an innovative business environment, and some of the loveliest people you'll ever meet.

The inner core itself is a hellish place though - overpriced restaurants with pictures on the menu; groups of stags from England, Scotland and Ireland peering in the windows at trafficked women, shops selling cheap tat, drug dealers on every corner, losers hanging around outside cannabis cafes talking rubbish to each other.

I live in the city centre of Amsterdam and what you are talking is gibberish. A section of the Rokin leading up to Central Station is a bit tacky but then so is the environs of the main station in almost every european city. The RLD has about a 3 street stretch of maybe 100 metres in parallel with windows, crappy bars, porn shops and kebab joints and it is no different than in Dusseldorf, Cologne OR indeed Frankfurt.


This comprises about 0.05% of the Amsterdam Centre. So please stop exaggerating.

Treppen

JustAThought wrote: »

Or you could go down to the methodone centres in Dun Laoghaire, Pearse St or Amiens St or the drug drop in centre in Merchants Quay and ask them how they got started. And the thousands who passed through our jails because of drug crime. Not all drug users are billionaires - most are pitiful and the majority become isolated social rejects.

I’m not surprised the citizens of Amsterdam are fed up with the massive drug tourism - I wouldn’t like it for Dublin either.

That's a bit of a tired stereotype.

You might be surprised that the many of the citizens partake in drug use also. But it was the first to break the mold so attracts the illegal elements, same as Nimbin in Australia.

But look at other cities in Holland which have decriminalised and you barely hear them get a mention.

Bandito909

Sounds like they have an alcohol problem there...

ShatterAlan

Kimbot wrote: »

I was only over there 2 years ago, I can easily name at least 12-14 places that I know as fact that are still open for business and thats all in a small area so there is tonnes of coffee shops still open.

There's one around the corner from my gaff literally a 10 second walk. There's another just across the bridge...maybe a 15 second walk. And I live in a fairly swanky area (Amstel by Waterlooplein).

ShatterAlan

smellyoldboot wrote: »

If you see it as essential to relax then yes. In fact we generally recognise that very attitude to alcohol as the massive red flare it is. It's very very common for regular weed smokers to think exactly like that though and they rarely recognise it as (psychological) dependance because of course its not addictive, right?

Try selling your "glass of wine BAD" theory to the residents of the Loire Valley, Burgundy, Bordeaux, etc and you'll be laughed out of town if you're not lynched first.

Kimbot

ShatterAlan wrote: »

There's one around the corner from my gaff literally a 10 second walk. There's another just across the bridge...maybe a 15 second walk. And I live in a fairly swanky area (Amstel by Waterlooplein).

Ah I think i even know the coffee shops your talking about

murpho999

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Utter, utter, bullshit.

Good coherent and well thought out argument.

Would you mind expanding on the points you disagree with so it be discussed maybe?

ShatterAlan

GT89 wrote: »

Wouldn't surprise if this was being done in order to generate more revenue from the types of tourists. Think about it who's going to spend more money in Amsterdam a group of working class 18-21 year old going on a weekend break to smoke weed and get pissed or a middle class professional couple in their late 20s/early 30s going on a city break together.

I would go for the professional couple spending less. I've spoken to groups of lads over on boozy weekends and the amount of money they drop is incredible. Usually close to a grand just for the weekend. You'll be hard pressed to find a hotel room that's not a slum for less than 150 a night. They arrive on the friday and get mashed and probably drop another 100 on booze, taxis, grub. Saturday they'll get breakfast and a pint, that's about 25 right there. Then they'll go and take in a few sights. Trust me not all the "weekend warriors" are the dregs of society. They might be blue collar guys but a lot of them are sound and want to explore the city. If they are football guys they'll want to go out and do the tour of the Johan Cruyff Ajax Stadium and maybe buy some merchandise. Some will even have a mooch around the flower market and take a one hour canal cruise. Some will actually (heaven forbid) have gone online and heard about the Anne Frank house or the Van Gogh museum and decide that this is the perfect way to kill an hour or 2 in the afternoon before going back on the sauce. They'll pile into some steakhouse in the early evening and drop 60 or 70 a head on a dinner. Then go bar hopping. Probably hit the RLD and sample a lady of the night Then go clubbing or whatnot and get kebab soakage as the night comes to an end the taxis back to the hotel again. Sunday is a similar affair......full Irish in the pub and then stay on if there's a match on and have more pints. Trust me drinking in Amsterdam isn't far off Temple Bar prices with 6.50 for a pint being the norm. They'll probably pick up some souvenirs for the wife, mother, gf like kitschy delft clogs or a t-shirt with a big penis on it. And then head to the airport.


The professional couple by comparison will have a coffee and croissant, then spend the day walking around taking selfies and maybe sit on a terrace nursing a glass of wine for 2 hours. They might browse a few antique shops or take the train out to Zaanschans to see the windmills. Have dinner and stroll a bit more and then call it a day.

ShatterAlan

JustAThought wrote: »

Or you could go down to the methodone centres in Dun Laoghaire, Pearse St or Amiens St or the drug drop in centre in Merchants Quay and ask them how they got started. And the thousands who passed through our jails because of drug crime. Not all drug users are billionaires - most are pitiful and the majority become isolated social rejects.

I’m not surprised the citizens of Amsterdam are fed up with the massive drug tourism - I wouldn’t like it for Dublin either.

And what about the 1000s of coffeeshops scattered all over the country in little villages in Limburg, Flevoland, Drenthe, Brabant, Friesland? Places that have probably never seen a tourist bar say a German family in a Mercedes stationwagon who are in the area because they want to go fishing. Who frequents those coffeeshops and what to the residents theink of them?

ShatterAlan

murpho999 wrote: »

Good coherent and well thought out argument.

Would you mind expanding on the points you disagree with so it be discussed maybe?

I highlighted it in your original post.


In the 20 years that I have been getting off the train at Centraal Station, or Amsterdam RAI or off the Metro at Waterlooplein on my way home from work I have never once been met by the smell of weed in the air.


The only smells I seem to recall are if someone is eating a bag of French Fries or a Febo burger.

ShatterAlan

Kimbot wrote: »

Ah I think i even know the coffee shops your talking about

We might have met unknowingly


Actually I'm not a weed smoker per se.