Rented apartment sold - Landlord wants me out before lockdown even ends

10pennymixup

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Use this situation to your advantage.

You now have part iV rights. Let the landlord enough rope to hang himself by the bollox. Don't respont and then oppose the eviction at the last minute. If they get angry then move out.
Then go to a solicitor and the RTB and take him to the cleaners. You'd be looking at €20-30k payout for this sort of thing. And afterselling the house, you know he has the funds to pay out on it.

TheBoyConor wrote: »

tbh i wouldn't have much sympathy for the landlord. They're nailing tennants left right and centre with rack-rents so what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

What a thoroughly ugly thing to say.

To encourage someone to proactively screw over someone else because of your own personal hang ups with LL's. And you do nothing to dispel the belief that there are some tenants that are just out to screw LL's, and use weighted legislation to their unfair advantage.

What a disservice you've just given every decent tenant out there.:(

Seth Brundle

Deeec wrote: »

I know they should know the regulation but it many industries regulation is not abided and that includes restaurants. Many business's not following covid regs at the moment as an example. Some of the posters on here are advising aggressive action for something that could be an innocent mistake.

My point was that there can't be innocent mistakes in the area of evicting tenants unless the LL is completely incompetent, in which case they should not be a landlord!
In no other area of business can someone ignore statuatory obligations and have people sympathise with the position because they didn't plan on being i that business - why would we expect it for a LL?

Mrs OBumble

Deeec wrote: »

. He may genuinely not know. Many landlords are elderly, many have inherited properties, many are reluctant landlords - the rules can be very hard to follow. Really do you think hes a bad landlord because he gave the incorrect notice? My guess is if this was pointed out to them they would accept their mistake and allow the tenant to stay for the correct duration.

Contrary to popular belief not all landlords are selfish and greedy ogres. No wonder there are many property owners out there that would prefer to leave their properties empty than have to deal with the hassles of being a landlord.

In general I'd agree with this.

But a landlord who does not know that evictions are not allowed, or appropriate, during Level 5 must be thick-as-a-brick.

Melanchthon

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Use this situation to your advantage.

You now have part iV rights. Let the landlord enough rope to hang himself by the bollox. Don't respont and then oppose the eviction at the last minute. If they get angry then move out.
Then go to a solicitor and the RTB and take him to the cleaners. You'd be looking at €20-30k payout for this sort of thing. And afterselling the house, you know he has the funds to pay out on it.

Wouldn't it be simplest for the OP, don't know if they are still reading the thread though, to simply tell the landlord they will move out quickly if he pays them a grand or two for the inconvenience caused.
In the context of making selling a house easier it's not a huge amount of cash to the seller but likely make a big difference to the tenant.

House prices are going to spike for at least a short period directly after lockdown ending so it would be worth the landlords time to make sure viewings can happen.

For the tenant there is decent deals on rental so with the extra cash it could work out well.

Seth Brundle

Melanchthon wrote: »

Wouldn't it be simplest for the OP, don't know if they are still reading the thread though, to simply tell the landlord they will move out quickly if he pays them a grand or two for the inconvenience caused.
In the context of making selling a house easier it's not a huge amount of cash to the seller but likely make a big difference to the tenant.

House prices are going to spike for at least a short period directly after lockdown ending so it would be worth the landlords time to make sure viewings can happen.

For the tenant there is decent deals on rental so with the extra cash it could work out well.

It is also wrong for the tenant (any tenant) to efectively blackmail or extort their LL.
It's no wonder the rental laws here are kaput. The LL's actions here are clearly wrong. The tenant should look for somewhere else and then go. The idea of profiteering because the LL is a dick shouldn't arise - in that case the tenant is no better than the LL!

Melanchthon

Seth Brundle wrote: »

It is also wrong for the tenant (any tenant) to efectively blackmail or extort their LL.
It's no wonder the rental laws here are kaput. The LL's actions here are clearly wrong. The tenant should look for somewhere else and then go. The idea of profiteering because the LL is a dick shouldn't arise - in that case the tenant is no better than the LL!

Having to move is a stressful, expensive, disruptive thing to do particularly when not your choice.

I am not advocating anything amoral. Why should a tenant have to move when they don't have to for some chancer.

ExMachina1000

Melanchthon wrote: »

Why should a tenant have to move when they don't have to for some chancer.

Because they dont own the property.

dennyk

OP, your course of action here really depends on what your goal is. You most likely can't reasonably expect to remain in the property indefinitely, so put that idea out of your mind; your tenancy will most likely be coming to an end within the next several months at the latest. However, you are absolutely entitled to the statutory notice period, which will give you more time to look for new accommodations; your landlord cannot simply tell you to leave next week.

The notice period for tenancies of more than a year but less than three years is 120 days. In addition, notice periods are currently paused for as long as the Level 5 restrictions are in place plus an additional 10 days after that, so even if your landlord issues you a notice of termination now (which is allowed), that 120 day notice period will not begin counting until 10 days after the Level 5 restrictions end.

Your landlord must issue you a valid notice of termination, and that notice must conform to the requirements listed at that link. If it does not (e.g. there is no statutory declaration included when the reason for the termination is that the property is to be sold, or it does not contain all of the required information, or it is not delivered in writing), it is not valid.

Also, note that if the property has actually been sold with your tenancy still in place, your tenancy remains in place and transfers to the new owner. This will usually only be possible if the new owner paid in cash or is buying the place with a buy-to-let mortgage; an owner-occupier mortgage will generally not allow drawdown to complete the purchase when a tenant is still in the property. You do NOT have to leave the property just because it has been sold; your tenancy is still valid and you still have the same Part 4 protections, and the new owner must have a valid reason to end your tenancy.

If the new owner intends to occupy the property themselves, they can end your tenancy for that reason, but they are still subject to the same notice period requirements (and the COVID-19 restrictions), and they must issue you a valid notice.

If the new owner intends to let the property, they cannot end your tenancy for that reason, as wanting to let the property to a different tenant is not one of the valid reasons for terminating a Part 4 tenancy. In that case, your tenancy is protected until the end of your current Part 4 term (which is six years after your tenancy commenced).

Your best course of action is to notify your landlord that you have not been given a valid notice of termination, and as such you won't be leaving next week. Then you should continue to look for other accommodations, and once you find one, let your landlord know (whether that's your current landlord or your new one), and it's likely they'll be willing to agree to an earlier mutual end date for your tenancy at that point.

grogi

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Because they dont own the property.

That might not be OPs house, but it is his home.

3DataModem

Deeec wrote: »

They probably will reach some agreement with you if they are a reasonable person.

They already did reach an agreement of a months notice (according to the OP) however this no longer suits the OP, so he is looking for ways to not honour that verbal agreement. Of which of course there are many, because the law and RTB are on OPs side and the landlord has no way of enforcing anything except the strict letter of the law.

3DataModem

Melanchthon wrote: »

Having to move is a stressful, expensive, disruptive thing to do particularly when not your choice.

I am not advocating anything amoral. Why should a tenant have to move when they don't have to for some chancer.

Because they agreed to?

3DataModem

punisher5112 wrote: »

Read the post by bitent who is the op and started the thread.

They state they were given no notice other then the house was sold and 3 weeks to leave....

It's the 1st post.

They agreed a month verbally with the landlord. I know that agreement is not enforceable by law, but it is relevant.

meijin

Great post dennyk, just a small note on the part bellow

dennyk wrote: »

Then you should continue to look for other accommodations, and once you find one, let your landlord know (whether that's your current landlord or your new one), and it's likely they'll be willing to agree to an earlier mutual end date for your tenancy at that point.

Once OP gets the valid notice, they're free to leave at any point, even the next day if that suits. There is no need to agree on any earlier mutual date. Please see some references to RTB rulings in my post a while ago https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=112183070&postcount=15

Winegum1

meijin wrote: »

Great post dennyk, just a small note on the part bellow



Once OP gets the valid notice, they're free to leave at any point, even the next day if that suits. There is no need to agree on any earlier mutual date. Please see some references to RTB rulings in my post a while ago https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=112183070&postcount=15

Would you know if he would get his deposit back too ? I'm in a bit of a situation myself.
Landlord was looking for access to our house but wouldn't tell us why. .
We were back and forth saying what do you need and we'll help you, its a level 5 lock down.
He starts telling us its in our interest to cooperate going forward then says he's required by law to get an updated ber.
1 week later he tells us he's selling and we get an official notice to leave signed by solicitor.
Hes being funny about deposit.

Sorry for jumping on board here but its kind of on the same vein

MacDanger

3DataModem wrote: »

They already did reach an agreement of a months notice (according to the OP) however this no longer suits the OP, so he is looking for ways to not honour that verbal agreement. Of which of course there are many, because the law and RTB are on OPs side and the landlord has no way of enforcing anything except the strict letter of the law.

What agreement are you talking about? There's nothing in the OP that mentions an agreement

meijin

Winegum1 wrote: »

Would you know if he would get his deposit back too ? I'm in a bit of a situation myself.

yes, please read the post I've linked and the RTB cases

if he doesn't pay, you'd need to open a case with RTB

Winegum1

meijin wrote: »

yes, please read the post I've linked and the RTB cases

if he doesn't pay, you'd need to open a case with RTB

Great thanks ill take a look. He's saying we have to give him 56 days notice even if we find somewhere sooner as a matter of urgency.
He's probably right as he knows his stuff

Browney7

Winegum1 wrote: »

Great thanks ill take a look. He's saying we have to give him 56 days notice even if we find somewhere sooner as a matter of urgency.
He's probably right as he knows his stuff

If you read the reports linked I'd expect you'll get your answer and can forward same reports to LL for his reference. If he insists on full notice and doesn't return deposit you open a case with RTB

meijin

Winegum1 wrote: »

Great thanks ill take a look. He's saying we have to give him 56 days notice even if we find somewhere sooner as a matter of urgency.
He's probably right as he knows his stuff

No, if he gave you notice it would need to say "on or before".

"before" means even the next day. You don't need to give any notice from your side in that case (but it would be courteous of course to let him know).

Winegum1

Browney7 wrote: »

If you read the reports linked I'd expect you'll get your answer and can forward same reports to LL for his reference. If he insists on full notice and doesn't return deposit you open a case with RTB

Thanks a mill for the advice.

In a non covid world we would be well shot of the place. Its dripping with mould in every room and I'm on an inhaler since last year and I don't even smoke.
But when the world decides to try and end in the middle of it with no where to go and he send thinly veiled threats by text after all we've had to put up with here, rats included I think he's the LL that gives the good guys a bad name

Winegum1

meijin wrote: »

No, if he gave you notice it would need to say "on or before".

"before" means even the next day. You don't need to give any notice from your side in that case (but it would be courteous of course to let him know).

We have to be out 4 months from the notice which was sent about 2 or 3 weeks ago. He said in those 4 months if we go we have to give 56 days notice from the time we tell him we are going.

dennyk

Winegum1 wrote: »

We have to be out 4 months from the notice which was sent about 2 or 3 weeks ago. He said in those 4 months if we go we have to give 56 days notice from the time we tell him we are going.

He's incorrect on two counts here. First, all notice periods are paused during the Level 5 lockdown and for ten days following the lifting of Level 5 restrictions. We were already in Level 5 two or three weeks ago, and the earliest that the restrictions will be lifted is on March 5th, so your 120 day notice period doesn't start counting until March 15th at the earliest (and possibly longer if the restrictions are extended or if Level 5 restrictions are imposed again later during the notice period). As such, you won't be legally required to vacate the property until mid-July or so at the earliest.

Second, as meijin posted, this RTB decision clearly indicates that once your landlord has given notice, you are free to vacate the property and terminate your tenancy at any time before the termination date provided in the notice, and you only owe rent through the date you vacate:

As a notice of termination had been served by the Appellant Landlord, albeit that it was invalid, the Respondent Tenants were only under an obligation to pay rent until such time as they vacated the dwelling, given that under s. 62 they are required to vacate the dwelling “on or before” the termination date. In those circumstances, the Appellant Landlord was not entitled to retain the deposit and should have returned it to the Respondent Tenants.

ExMachina1000

grogi wrote: »

That might not be OPs house, but it is his home.

Doesn't matter. He can go buy his own house then do as he plans

punisher5112

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Doesn't matter. He can go buy his own house then do as he plans

Home is a home whether owned or not....

I'm glad I got a mortgage, pay less then rent, have something at the end of it

7 years wasted paying others mortgage for them and then they have a nice nest egg to sell or continue to rent.

Winegum1

dennyk wrote: »

He's incorrect on two counts here. First, all notice periods are paused during the Level 5 lockdown and for ten days following the lifting of Level 5 restrictions. We were already in Level 5 two or three weeks ago, and the earliest that the restrictions will be lifted is on March 5th, so your 120 day notice period doesn't start counting until March 15th at the earliest (and possibly longer if the restrictions are extended or if Level 5 restrictions are imposed again later during the notice period). As such, you won't be legally required to vacate the property until mid-July or so at the earliest.

Second, as meijin posted, this RTB decision clearly indicates that once your landlord has given notice, you are free to vacate the property and terminate your tenancy at any time before the termination date provided in the notice, and you only owe rent through the date you vacate:

Fantastic to know and again thanks for the info.
I'll get all of my information together tonight and send it off to him.

Graces7

punisher5112 wrote: »

Home is a home whether owned or not....

I'm glad I got a mortgage, pay less then rent, have something at the end of it

7 years wasted paying others mortgage for them and then they have a nice nest egg to sell or continue to rent.

In one sense yes and I see your meaning but when we take a rental we know it is not for life; that we do not own it and that there are ways in which we can legally be made to leave. That is the hard fact of renting.

grogi

Graces7 wrote: »

In one sense yes and I see your meaning but when we take a rental we know it is not for life; that we do not own it and that there are ways in which we can legally be made to leave. That is the hard fact of renting.

Nobody is assuming that. Plans change, needs change - people move in and out. That's life.

Nevertheless the tenant is a human being and should be treated as such. That's the tenant's home and should be able to expect stability with the place they live in. That's why we tenant protection laws and they generally are a good thing.

In Ireland unfortunately the protection extends a bit too much IMHO and a lot of tenants exploit the system. One should be getting all the protection they need only if they keep their side of the deal. In cases where tenants that don't, like forgetting to pay for a longer period of time or to care for the property, the protection should lapse pretty quickly.

Claw Hammer

grogi wrote: »

Nobody is assuming that. Plans change, needs change - people move in and out. That's life.

Nevertheless the tenant is a human being and should be treated as such.y.

Every tenant is a human being. The law assumes as much.

3DataModem

MacDanger wrote: »

What agreement are you talking about? There's nothing in the OP that mentions an agreement

4th post, also by OP.

Graces7

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Every tenant is a human being. The law assumes as much.

Exactly and that does not mean that tenancies are not finite; that was the point I was making. Tenancies are essentially finite. And vulnerable. We tenants have to accept that this is only our temporary dwelling. Owned by someone else. The emotive use of the word " home" is misleading. I have rented for some 20 years and have never regarded that place as my " home " in the real sense of the word.