Rented apartment sold - Landlord wants me out before lockdown even ends

bitent

I have been renting for over a year now.
My lease ran out a few months ago.

Recently the landlord informed me the property was going up for sale.
I was informed three weeks ago after a dozen or so viewings(including during level 5) that the sale had closed.

I was called again and told I had 3 to 4 weeks,
No notice of termination was given at any point.

Got another call a week ago to say I needed to be out by the beginning of next week(next month rent due on the day). I'm struggling to find somewhere suitable to live and I don't know what to do.

What can I do in this situation?.

Gael23

Do you have a lease? He can’t do this if so

Mrs OBumble

Call Threshold for advice. He cannot require you to leave until Level 5 ends + 10 days.

bitent

The lease did in fact run out but a verbal agreement for a month to month was agreed.
I know this was a mistake however it wouldn't have prevented him from selling it.

Contacted Threshold and they confirmed regardless of lease expiry that I was still entitled to written notice.
Also told me during that period I should have had exclusive use of the property and did not have to agree to viewings.
I had no idea.

How does the situation stand if there is a new owner who needs vacant possession?.
Would I pay them rent?.

I would get out of this place immediately but Covid restrictions and extreme demand on rental property are making it extremely difficult to do.
Thanks for the responses.

Caranica

Regardless of the month to month agreement, you have Part IV tenancy rights after 6 months. Your landlord has made all kinds of mistakes!

houseyhouse

I doubt they'll be able to complete the sale while you're living there. Banks require vacant possession for mortgage drawdown.

If I were in your position, I would explain to the landlord that I'm not leaving until I have somewhere to go. If you're there for over a year, you should have been given minimum 120 days notice. And the notice period only starts when you receive written notice.

Good luck

Marcusm

This landlord doesn’t have a clue. Don’t abuse that but sort yourself out in the lawful notice period/. Inform the landlord that he needs to serve a termination notice. Suggest he might speak with the solicitor dealing with the sale!

Ginger83

bitent wrote: »

I have been renting for over a year now.
My lease ran out a few months ago.

Recently the landlord informed me the property was going up for sale.
I was informed three weeks ago after a dozen or so viewings(including during level 5) that the sale had closed.

I was called again and told I had 3 to 4 weeks,
No notice of termination was given at any point.

Got another call a week ago to say I needed to be out by the beginning of next week(next month rent due on the day). I'm struggling to find somewhere suitable to live and I don't know what to do.

What can I do in this situation?.

Hi first of all don't panic because you do not have to leave or be forced to leave yet. Your landlord broke all sorts of rules and laws and it would suit him or her to live up to their obligations.

So you are a tenant with a tenancy more than 6 months, this means you have part IV rights which means you are entitled to a valid reason for your tenancy ending and written notice.

As you are living there over 1 year your landlord must serve you with 120 days written notice and a signed declaration of intention to sell if that is the intention. Any time we are in covid level 5 your notice period is paused.

As you have not been served notice do nothing.
See here
https://www.rtb.ie/ending-a-tenancy/notice-periods-that-a-landlord-should-give

How could the sale close with a tenant still in situ?

ted1

Caranica wrote: »

Regardless of the month to month agreement, you have Part IV tenancy rights after 6 months. Your landlord has made all kinds of mistakes!

Not that easy. The tenant needs to claim part 4 and may have missed his window.
********

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/types_of_tenancy.html#

Claiming a Part 4 tenancy at the end of a fixed-term lease
If you have a fixed-term contract or lease and you want to remain in the property under the rights acquired under Part 4, you must notify your landlord of your intention to stay in the property. You must do this between 3 months and 1 month before your fixed–term tenancy or lease agreement expires. You can use this sample letter of notification to remain in the property under Part 4.

If you do not notify your landlord, you cannot be refused coverage under Part 4, but you may have to compensate the landlord for any financial loss that they incur because you did not notify them of your intention to remain in the tenancy.

*****
The landlords financial loss in this case is the sale price.

Ginger83

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

How could the sale close with a tenant still in situ?

Cash buyer or voluntary surrender

Ginger83

ted1 wrote: »

Not that easy. The tenant needs to claim part 4 and may have missed his window.
********

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/types_of_tenancy.html#

Claiming a Part 4 tenancy at the end of a fixed-term lease
If you have a fixed-term contract or lease and you want to remain in the property under the rights acquired under Part 4, you must notify your landlord of your intention to stay in the property. You must do this between 3 months and 1 month before your fixed–term tenancy or lease agreement expires. You can use this sample letter of notification to remain in the property under Part 4.

If you do not notify your landlord, you cannot be refused coverage under Part 4, but you may have to compensate the landlord for any financial loss that they incur because you did not notify them of your intention to remain in the tenancy.

*****
The landlords financial loss in this case is the sale price.

The landlord would still be obliged to serve written notice.

Sarn

ted1 wrote: »

Not that easy. The tenant needs to claim part 4 and may have missed his window.
********

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/types_of_tenancy.html#

Claiming a Part 4 tenancy at the end of a fixed-term lease
If you have a fixed-term contract or lease and you want to remain in the property under the rights acquired under Part 4, you must notify your landlord of your intention to stay in the property. You must do this between 3 months and 1 month before your fixed–term tenancy or lease agreement expires. You can use this sample letter of notification to remain in the property under Part 4.

If you do not notify your landlord, you cannot be refused coverage under Part 4, but you may have to compensate the landlord for any financial loss that they incur because you did not notify them of your intention to remain in the tenancy.

*****
The landlords financial loss in this case is the sale price.

This is not an issue. That is only if you don’t notify them before the end of the fixed term. They’ve already been there over a year and had already agreed to stay on.

ted1

Sarn wrote: »

This is not an issue. That is only if you don’t notify them before the end of the fixed term. They’ve already been there over a year and had already agreed to stay on.

We don’t have the timeline.

Gumbo

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

How could the sale close with a tenant still in situ?

I’d assume the OP means sale agreed rather than closed.

Sarn

bitent wrote: »

I have been renting for over a year now.
My lease ran out a few months ago.

They’ve been there over a year and no notice was served until recently. The reason why the tenant is supposed to notify before the end of the fixed term is in case the LL goes ahead and advertises for a new tenant etc. with associated costs. Now that they’ve moved past the fixed term, it is no longer an issue.

Ginger83

Ginger83 wrote: »

Cash buyer or voluntary surrender

Indeed but a solicitor should have spotted that theres an issue here.

By all means go sale agreed but closed and no keys handed over or house vacated? Would be pissed if I was the buyer

Ginger83

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Indeed but a solicitor should have spotted that theres an issue here.

By all means go sale agreed but closed and no keys handed over or house vacated? Would be pissed if I was the buyer

I wonder could the seller have failed to disclose that there is a tenant

bitent

Ginger83 wrote: »

I wonder could the seller have failed to disclose that there is a tenant

OP Here and I appreciate the feedback.
This might be the case. I did have viewings so if the person viewed the property then they couldn't fail to notice that all of my belongings were here but perhaps it could have been explained that these were owned by the seller of the property.
In other words they may have lied.
Viewings were carried out during level 5 lockdown also.

Possibly the person didn't view in person and just bought from viewing virtually.
I felt pressured into allowing the viewings and was totally unsure of my rights.
While everything else was closed for lockdown, my rental was open for the public to come and mill around in.

This is the second time this has happened to me. Last time was a year and a half ago and the property was sold with me in it. That time I was at least given the proper notice period but only after a lengthy argument with the landlord.

I do think as mentioned it is sale agreed rather than closed as someone pointed out but i'm getting mixed messages from the landlord who is keeping me in the dark.

Some people have mentioned that I should stay until I have somewhere to go.
I agree but just wonder how that would play out.
The Landlord has his own set of keys I presume.
Does that mean I could come back some day to find the locks changed?.
I just wonder what I could even do at that point if he did.

If there was something available now that I could take then no question I would be gone with a harsh lesson learned.
Genuinely freaked out about the whole thing and living on my own makes it even harder.

But all advice and comments greatly appreciated so thanks.

bitent

bitent wrote: »

Viewings were carried out during level 5 lockdown also.

Forget that.

You are trying to use it as a secondary reason. Its not relevant to the situation. Besides the fact that selling houses is considered essential, its also done and dusted and not something that the RTB, etc have a hand in.

Can you genuinely not find anywhere else? If thats the case then stay obviously but if you can move, you may as well as its what will happen anyway.

the landlord is selling, its a reason to evict. Your notice period is all thats in play at the moment so delay if need be but personally, I wouldnt be bothered if he is willing to give you a solid referance.

singmeasongy

Id say to the landlord if he wants you gone that fast he will need to compensate you for this inconvenience he is causing of having to move in middle of a lockdown. The cost of 2 months rent and a deposit would be ballpark figure id look for. Maybe bit more.

If he refuses say fine. Tell him you will not be dealing with him anymore and refer the case to the RTB. Tell him you dont want anymore harrassment and block his number.

If you come back one day and he has changed the locks. You can get compensation for an illegal eviction. So he would be pretty dumb to try this.

You are in a good position here to negotiate you hold all the cards here. The landlord cannot do anything. He can serve notice and you can ignore that too if u wish and wait for the RTB to go through the procedure to evict you.

Sort out a suitable deal for yourself and dig your heels in if you must. It could take a year to evict you so he is better off giving you that cash to leave.

punisher5112

No the LL can't just let themselves in.
They can't turf your belongings out.
They can't change the locks.
It's your home.
You haven't been given legal notice.
You have part 4 rights regardless of any lease.
They must give the legal notice and as this hasn't happened you still will have the 120 days from when they issue this.
Continue to pay the rent on time.
Any contact use text or email.
Do not allow any more viewing and honestly you shouldn't have allowed any during the lockdown for your own safety and well-being.

You can bring a case to the rtb if needs be.
If the LL was to change locks or enter without agreed notice then they would be getting a very big bill and end up having to compensate you.

Obviously id continue looking for a new place.

Victor

ted1 wrote: »

Not that easy. The tenant needs to claim part 4 and may have missed his window.
********

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/types_of_tenancy.html#

Claiming a Part 4 tenancy at the end of a fixed-term lease
If you have a fixed-term contract or lease and you want to remain in the property under the rights acquired under Part 4, you must notify your landlord of your intention to stay in the property. You must do this between 3 months and 1 month before your fixed–term tenancy or lease agreement expires. You can use this sample letter of notification to remain in the property under Part 4.

If you do not notify your landlord, you cannot be refused coverage under Part 4, but you may have to compensate the landlord for any financial loss that they incur because you did not notify them of your intention to remain in the tenancy.

No judge is going to accept your point of view if there is an agreement (albeit possibly verbal) and cash has changed hands.

The tenant's Part 4 rights still trump the verbal agreement.

The landlords financial loss in this case is the sale price.

Even in the worst case scenario, it would be the landlord's loss, not the full sale price.

bitent wrote: »

The Landlord has his own set of keys I presume.
Does that mean I could come back some day to find the locks changed?.

If that happens, go to the Garda, as that would be an illegal eviction.

MacDanger

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Can you genuinely not find anywhere else? If thats the case then stay obviously but if you can move, you may as well as its what will happen anyway.

the landlord is selling, its a reason to evict. Your notice period is all thats in play at the moment so delay if need be but personally, I wouldnt be bothered if he is willing to give you a solid referance.

I wouldn't listen to this advice if I were you.

The situation as it stands is:

1. Even though the LL owns the property and wants to sell it, the law states that he/she has to give you proper notice before doing so. Until then it is your home and you cannot be thrown out of it

2. The LL has not given you proper notice - from your OP, it sounds like you're in the property more than a year but less than 3 years? That means you have a "Part 4 tenancy" and need to get 120 days notice

3. Even when you receive proper notice, the notice period doesn't kick in until L5 restrictions end (March/April at the earliest)

4. Based on the above, you have at least 4-5 months before you have to move out; use this time to find somewhere nice but don't allow the LL to pressurise you into moving before you're ready.

The LL is trying to bully you here, don't allow them to do so

Deeec

Sorry to hear about your situation OP. People can get obsessed with rules and regs in this situation which results in everyone getting frustrated and annoyed.

My advice is to sit down calmly with the landlord and explain your situation. They probably will reach some agreement with you if they are a reasonable person. They may even know some other landlord with property suitable for you. Also find out if the new owner is renting out the property.

Ginger83

punisher5112 wrote: »

No the LL can't just let themselves in.
They can't turf your belongings out.
They can't change the locks.
It's your home.
You haven't been given legal notice.
You have part 4 rights regardless of any lease.
They must give the legal notice and as this hasn't happened you still will have the 120 days from when they issue this.
Continue to pay the rent on time.
Any contact use text or email.
Do not allow any more viewing and honestly you shouldn't have allowed any during the lockdown for your own safety and well-being.

You can bring a case to the rtb if needs be.
If the LL was to change locks or enter without agreed notice then they would be getting a very big bill and end up having to compensate you.

Obviously id continue looking for a new place.

I think this is very good advice.
Know your rights but keep looking for alternative accommodation.

MacDanger

MacDanger wrote: »

I wouldn't listen to this advice if I were you.

The situation as it stands is:

1. Even though the LL owns the property and wants to sell it, the law states that he/she has to give you proper notice before doing so. Until then it is your home and you cannot be thrown out of it

2. The LL has not given you proper notice - from your OP, it sounds like you're in the property more than a year but less than 3 years? That means you have a "Part 4 tenancy" and need to get 120 days notice

3. Even when you receive proper notice, the notice period doesn't kick in until L5 restrictions end (March/April at the earliest)

4. Based on the above, you have at least 4-5 months before you have to move out; use this time to find somewhere nice but don't allow the LL to pressurise you into moving before you're ready.

The LL is trying to bully you here, don't allow them to do so

So what exactly did I say that was incorrect? Points 1 to 3 are the same, notice period is all thats at play so again, the OP will be getting evicted.

part 4 is the same as what i said

Victor wrote: »

If that happens, go to the Garda, as that would be an illegal eviction.

Nothing to do with the Gardai, thats why the RTB exist. Theft / Assault would need to be involved for the Gardai

Ginger83

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

So what exactly did I say that was incorrect? Points 1 to 3 are the same, notice period is all thats at play so again, the OP will be getting evicted.

part 4 is the same as what i said



Nothing to do with the Gardai, thats why the RTB exist. Theft / Assault would need to be involved for the Gardai

The gardai would advise the landlord to open the property to let the tenant back into their home.
If they didn't I'd drill the locks if it was me.

Captain Flaps

Deeec wrote: »

Sorry to hear about your situation OP. People can get obsessed with rules and regs in this situation which results in everyone getting frustrated and annoyed.

My advice is to sit down calmly with the landlord and explain your situation. They probably will reach some agreement with you if they are a reasonable person. They may even know some other landlord with property suitable for you. Also find out if the new owner is renting out the property.

'obsessed with rules and regs' is a funny way to say 'advising OP of his legal rights not to be tossed out of his home during a level 5 lockdown in a global pandemic'

I would absolutely chat to the landlord about whether there is an amicable solution but at the end of the day OP is entitled to stay for 3 months at the very least, they can do their best to find somewhere suitable when they can but that's not fully within their power. If the landlord had acted reasonably or fairly themselves the OP wouldn't have needed to post this thread in the first place.

MacDanger

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

So what exactly did I say that was incorrect? Points 1 to 3 are the same, notice period is all thats at play so again, the OP will be getting evicted.

part 4 is the same as what i said

I don't believe I said you were incorrect.

The tone of your post comes across as advising the OP to do their best to accommodate a LL who is trying to illegally evict them in the hope of getting "a solid reference". Perhaps that wasn't the way you intended it but that's the way I read it.

My advice to the OP is to move when they can find somewhere suitable and not allow the LL to bully them into moving before that.

Deeec

Captain Flaps wrote: »

'obsessed with rules and regs' is a funny way to say 'advising OP of his legal rights not to be tossed out of his home during a level 5 lockdown in a global pandemic'

I would absolutely chat to the landlord about whether there is an amicable solution but at the end of the day OP is entitled to stay for 3 months at the very least, they can do their best to find somewhere suitable when they can but that's not fully within their power. If the landlord had acted reasonably or fairly themselves the OP wouldn't have needed to post this thread in the first place.

Look you know what I mean. I think alot of tenants believe their landlords to be monsters and always go in for the fight. Most issues can be sorted calmly with discussion - no need to start contacting threshold and quoting regulation this and that.

MacDanger

Deeec wrote: »

Look you know what I mean. I think alot of tenants believe their landlords to be monsters and always go in for the fight. Most issues can be sorted calmly with discussion - no need to start contacting threshold and quoting regulation this and that.

Yeah, the LL seems like a reasonable person tbf:

Got another call a week ago to say I needed to be out by the beginning of next week

Deeec

MacDanger wrote: »

Yeah, the LL seems like a reasonable person tbf:

Just giving advice. OP can try or not try it.

MacDanger

MacDanger wrote: »

I don't believe I said you were incorrect.

The tone of your post comes across as advising the OP to do their best to accommodate a LL who is trying to illegally evict them in the hope of getting "a solid reference". Perhaps that wasn't the way you intended it but that's the way I read it.

My advice to the OP is to move when they can find somewhere suitable and not allow the LL to bully them into moving before that.

So despite being accurate in my assesment you suggested it was bad advise? thanks for that.

No, I suggested as per the post, that as the eviction was going to happen, the OP may as well move IF he had somewhere to go that suited him and if that was not the case, DO NOT move out until he had.

Maybe thats not confontational enough for some people but hey, thats just how I try to be

Ginger83

Ginger83 wrote: »

The gardai would advise the landlord to open the property to let the tenant back into their home.
If they didn't I'd drill the locks if it was me.

They could also advise both to resolve the issue via the correct channels and not contact Gardai for civil matters.

It depends on the Garda and how knowledgeable they are in this area.

Your doctor might also give the same advise but no one suggests calling him

Ginger83

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

They could also advise both to resolve the issue via the correct channels and not contact Gardai for civil matters.

It depends on the Garda and how knowledgeable they are in this area.

Your doctor might also give the same advise but no one suggests calling him

Would it not be a criminal offence to lock someone out of their home?

Ginger83

Ginger83 wrote: »

Would it not be a criminal offence to lock someone out of their home?

As I said, it could fall within certain parameters but no, locking someone out over a contract dispute would be a civil trespass without any other factors at play.

You can't just ignore ownership of the property when looking at Criminal law so there's the ownership of the house v ownership of the property within.

Would it benefit anyone if the landlord was arrested? Op would still be locked out.

punisher5112

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

As I said, it could fall within certain parameters but no, locking someone out over a contract dispute would be a civil trespass without any other factors at play.

You can't just ignore ownership of the property when looking at Criminal law so there's the ownership of the house v ownership of the property within.

Would it benefit anyone if the landlord was arrested? Op would still be locked out.

LL be looking at around €10k in compensation right there.

Even if the op wasn't paying they couldn't do this.

Graham

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

As I said, it could fall within certain parameters but no, locking someone out over a contract dispute would be a civil trespass without any other factors at play.

Other factors like an illegal eviction?

Is that a civil matter or criminal?

Winegum1

Awful situation for you op.

I think because he didn't serve you with official notice you might be able to stay longer then you think.

We've just gotten a registered letter giving us our notice. We've got 4 months to find somewhere which sounds great but not when nowhere is renting to young families.

Ginger83

punisher5112 wrote: »

LL be looking at around €10k in compensation right there.

Even if the op wasn't paying they couldn't do this.

At least plus all other costs incurred I'd say.
Let's say the OP was locked out and had nowhere to go and had to go to a hotel.
That could be very costly for a landlord.

Mrs OBumble

Ginger83 wrote: »

At least plus all other costs incurred I'd say.
Let's say the OP was locked out and had nowhere to go and had to go to a hotel.
That could be very costly for a landlord.

How does one actually get the cash out of the landlord's hot hands?

Some responses here are leally correct and great in theory, but lack understanding of the real world.

punisher5112

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

How does one actually get the cash out of the landlord's hot hands?

Some responses here are leally correct and great in theory, but lack understanding of the real world.

Judgement against assets.etc.

Of course it's easier said then done but the LL is wrong in what they are doing as we know.

Snipp

Are you positive you were not given written notice? The outcome of this rests on that.

punisher5112

Snipp wrote: »

Are you positive you were not given written notice? The outcome of this rests on that.

Read the post by bitent who is the op and started the thread.

They state they were given no notice other then the house was sold and 3 weeks to leave....

It's the 1st post.

Snipp

punisher5112 wrote: »

Read the post by bitent who is the op and started the thread.

They state they were given no notice other then the house was sold and 3 weeks to leave....

It's the 1st post.

I've read it. It just seems unlikely that a landlord would make that mistake considering he was courteous enough to inform him/her of his plans to sell. OP needs a solicitor regardless.

faceman

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

As I said, it could fall within certain parameters but no, locking someone out over a contract dispute would be a civil trespass without any other factors at play.

You can't just ignore ownership of the property when looking at Criminal law so there's the ownership of the house v ownership of the property within.

Would it benefit anyone if the landlord was arrested? Op would still be locked out.

Threshold advises gardai are contacted during an illegal eviction.

punisher5112

Snipp wrote: »

I've read it. It just seems unlikely that a landlord would make that mistake considering he was courteous enough to inform him/her of his plans to sell. OP needs a solicitor regardless.

Solicitor for what.

I do believe it.

Snipp

punisher5112 wrote: »

Solicitor for what.

I do believe it.

For professional legal advice.

Mrs OBumble

punisher5112 wrote: »

Judgement against assets.etc.

Of course it's easier said then done but the LL is wrong in what they are doing as we know.

What does it take to get one of there and then get it enforced?

SteM

Snipp wrote: »

I've read it. It just seems unlikely that a landlord would make that mistake considering he was courteous enough to inform him/her of his plans to sell. OP needs a solicitor regardless.

The LL wasn't being courteous, they informed the OP of their plan to sell because they to arrange viewings. Nothing courteous about it as far as I can see, just another landlord that either doesn't know the rules or is choosing to ignore them.