Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Why is Ireland's justice system so lenient?

Options
123468

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 898 ✭✭✭Mike Murdock


    Brian? wrote: »
    It isn't that lenient. We have developed a system focused on rehabilitation and not punishment, which is a good thing.

    And how successful is that system, Brian?

    You give these little cnuts with 10/20/30 prior convictions a slap on the wrist and a Social Worker and they just laugh their asses off at you.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,110 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    walshb wrote: »
    Yep

    And wait for it...give it a little time and some bleedin' hearts will be looking for release....he's fixed, he's grand, he's rehabilitated...

    Peter Whelan, who attacked the two girls in Cork in 2002 I think it was, is looking to get out...he has had day releases n all

    Absolute monster...

    It's disgusting to think what some people can do to others and our laws can even think about these type releases...

    You know most people can be rehabilitated with the right treatment, but some can't.

    Peter Whelan isn't a monster. He's a man who did monstrous things. To simply write people odd as monsters is like sticking your head in the sand. These people commit heinous crimes for a reason. If we understand why we can use it to help stop the crimes happening in the future.

    If mental health experts and say someone is rehabilitated I'm happy to take their word over someone journalist selling outrage .

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Registered Users Posts: 898 ✭✭✭Mike Murdock


    Brian? wrote: »
    You know most people can be rehabilitated with the right treatment, but some can't.

    Peter Whelan isn't a monster. He's a man who did monstrous things. To simply write people odd as monsters is like sticking your head in the sand. These people commit heinous crimes for a reason. If we understand why we can use it to help stop the crimes happening in the future.

    If mental health experts and say someone is rehabilitated I'm happy to take their word over someone journalist selling outrage .

    Psychopathy & Sociopathy cannot be treated anymore than Paedophilia can.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,110 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    And how successful is that system, Brian?

    You give these little cnuts with 10/20/30 prior convictions a slap on the wrist and a Social Worker and they just laugh their asses off at you.

    Successful? What's the measure of success?

    Most of these people I see with 20+ convictions are for non violent crimes. They're usually for petty theft etc. . I may be in the minority, but i really question if a custodial sentence is really needed for someone shoplifting razor blades or after shave.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,110 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Psychopathy & Sociopathy cannot be treated anymore than Paedophilia can.

    As I said. Some people can't be rehabilitated. But at a guess psychopaths make up less than 1% of the population.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 601 ✭✭✭RandRuns


    Brian? wrote: »
    It isn't that lenient. We have developed a system focused on rehabilitation and not punishment, which is a good thing.

    I wonder if the victims of crimes comitted by those who should be in prison, but aren't, would agree that it's a good thing.

    Rehabilitation is good. However our system appears to be based on rewarding solicitors for having recidivist clients, and avoiding having to provide prison places. The whole "rehabilitation and not punishment" thing, is, I think, a fig leaf.

    Sometimes, we need to think what's best for the law abiding and society overall, rather than what is best for solicitors and habitual criminals.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,969 ✭✭✭McCrack


    Concurrent sentencing is a big one.

    Concurrent sentencing is supposed to be just say you go into a shop for an armed robbery, you steal the till takings, a rake of cigarettes, a Mars bar, a can of Coke and a packet of crisps, so you lump it into one crime.

    Not you did a load of drugs, stole a car, ran somebody over, held up a shop, battered the shop keeper and then got caught with a **** load of drugs too. Then they lump it all to be served at the same time.

    You need to understand sentencing

    Look up totality principle sentencing in Ireland


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,632 ✭✭✭Nermal


    McCrack wrote: »
    You need to understand sentencing.

    Reminds me of the arguments that used to be thrown at Dawkins: how can you argue about God when you haven't studied theology?

    The 'emporer's new clothes' argument: how can you say the emporer has no clothes, when you haven't studied the fine details of the stitching, embroidery, the brocade?

    We understand right and wrong McCrack. Something those who construct and those who defend pathetically weak sentences have totally lost touch with.


  • Registered Users Posts: 522 ✭✭✭yoke


    Daragh1980 wrote: »
    The Left in Ireland only care about locking people up for
    1 White collar crime
    2 Violent crime but only if the perp is middle / upper class

    Total bollox. This has nothing to do with left wing vs right wing.

    Anyway prison isn’t the “one size fits all” punishment it’s used as, and we need to start diversifying our punishment strategy for people who aren’t fazed by the prospect of a short time in prison.

    I knew a guy who went to prison for a month, when he came out he said it was a doddle, more like a school reunion, he said all his old classmates were there.
    On the other hand, going to prison even for a short time would be a huge deterrent for someone who needs foreign visas for their work, for example.

    Thus, we obviously need to re-think our “one size fits all” punishment system, as prison is a huge punishment for some people, while it is a minor inconvenience for others. I know that the guy who thought a month in mountjoy was a doddle would have balked at the prospect of his family’s welfare cheque being cut temporarily.

    Since it might be giving too much power to a judge if we allowed them to arbitrarily assign punishments, we could still take a shotgun approach and include monetary losses as punishments, as well as allowing prisoners to opt to do extra labour (something that can be easily supervised, like building a road or whatever) for a reduction in prison time, etc. These things would lower the overall cost of prison to the state, and allow judges to issue harsher sentences (which is what’s needed IMO).

    Regarding the rehabilitation vs deterrence argument - there needs to be both, but deterrence cannot be ignored. It’s one of the reasons I stopped speeding around in cars myself, so I have first-hand experience of deterrence “having worked”.


  • Posts: 14,344 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    It's worth remembering something about convictions.

    Getting a conviction means you actually got caught.

    The Gardai are not the most pro-active organisation. Everyone in some form or another has had the "civil matter", "no car available" or "not a lot we can really do" conversation. For the Gardai to actually manage to catch you doing something, and a judge to actually convict (keep in mind a lot of convictions are lost to the 'poor box donation') 30+ times, means you've likely done it hundreds upon hundreds of times before.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 2,969 ✭✭✭McCrack


    Nermal wrote: »
    Reminds me of the arguments that used to be thrown at Dawkins: how can you argue about God when you haven't studied theology?

    The 'emporer's new clothes' argument: how can you say the emporer has no clothes, when you haven't studied the fine details of the stitching, embroidery, the brocade?

    We understand right and wrong McCrack. Something those who construct and those who defend pathetically weak sentences have totally lost touch with.

    People involved know, a lot people on the internet making ill informed opinions don't and yes the vast majority of people from a very young age understand right from wrong.


  • Registered Users Posts: 470 ✭✭The Oort Cloud


    Brian? wrote: »
    It isn't that lenient. We have developed a system focused on rehabilitation and not punishment, which is a good thing.


    Brian, do you really think rehabilitation works for crazed criminals? Don't be so naive. This rehabilitation bull-crap has been used to death, yes, let us give this person a second chance, he/she might change their outlook on life and be a nice person, bollox, most of these real scumbags are just sociopaths/psychopaths that cannot be changed no matter how much rehabilitation they get. They will just go through the basic formalities and be out on the street attacking people constantly.



    Rehabilitation my fat arse.

    Individual people have different thoughts and understanding in regard to others opinions, but the problem is this... there are some people out there that will do everything in their power to cut you off when they do not like your opinion even when it is truth.

    https://youtu.be/v8EseBe4eIU



  • Registered Users Posts: 21 portlygent


    Brian? wrote: »
    You know most people can be rehabilitated with the right treatment, but some can't.

    Peter Whelan isn't a monster. He's a man who did monstrous things. To simply write people odd as monsters is like sticking your head in the sand. These people commit heinous crimes for a reason. If we understand why we can use it to help stop the crimes happening in the future.

    If mental health experts and say someone is rehabilitated I'm happy to take their word over someone journalist selling outrage .

    Peter Whelan isn't a monster? He butchered a teenage girl just for the craic. Unfortunately, it's doormats like you that are causing gangs of feral teenagers to cycle around stabbing and mugging people with absolutely 0 ****s given for the possible consequences.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,110 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Brian, do you really think rehabilitation works for crazed criminals? Don't be so naive. This rehabilitation bull-crap has been used to death, yes, let us give this person a second chance, he/she might change their outlook on life and be a nice person, bollox, most of these real scumbags are just sociopaths/psychopaths that cannot be changed no matter how much rehabilitation they get. They will just go through the basic formalities and be out on the street attacking people constantly.



    Rehabilitation my fat arse.

    Rehabilitation works for most people. Yes. As I said earlier the number of actual psychopaths and sociopaths is actually tiny. You’re confusing someone being an unrepentant **** with a psychological disorder.

    I’m not the least but naive. Naivety implies I’m basing the above one a lack of knowledge. When I’m basing it on facts.

    Everyone making the opposite argument is basing it on appeals to emotion.

    I’m sorry to hear about your fat arse. Maybe that can be rehabilitated

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,110 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    portlygent wrote: »
    Peter Whelan isn't a monster? He butchered a teenage girl just for the craic. Unfortunately, it's doormats like you that are causing gangs of feral teenagers to cycle around stabbing and mugging people with absolutely 0 ****s given for the possible consequences.

    Another nonsense emotional argument. Peter Whelan is a man who did monstrous things.

    I’m causing nothing. Those kids are doing that because their parents are letting them away with it. My kids are being raised right. Just like I was. I grew up in west Tallaght surrounded by a heroin epidemic in the 80s. I think I have a pretty good insight into these kind of people. I grew up with them.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,473 ✭✭✭Mimon


    Brian? wrote: »
    It isn't that lenient. We have developed a system focused on rehabilitation and not punishment, which is a good thing.

    Are you actually being serious here. There is feck all invested in rehabilitation here. Typical Irish system of paying lip service to rehabilitation and halfheartedly doing it


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,069 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    A young man got the probation act today. He issued death & racist threats against Ian Wright. Judge seems to think its a "boys will be boys" type of thing.

    I think he can be filed under A for Arsehole rather than serious career criminal.


  • Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭celticWario


    we have to remember that these people are victims themselves, there's no facilities for them growing up, they get groomed into crime in deprived areas and end up with addiction problems and learning difficulties because they left school early, we need a more holistic approach to dealing with them instead of locking them away, they tried putting people in jail in america and look how that turned out.


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,646 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hellrazer


    we have to remember that these people are victims themselves, there's no facilities for them growing up, they get groomed into crime in deprived areas and end up with addiction problems and learning difficulties because they left school early, we need a more holistic approach to dealing with them instead of locking them away, they tried putting people in jail in america and look how that turned out.

    That's a bit unfair - I grew up in a "deprived" area - Dublin 8 at the height of the heroin epidemic in the late 80s and 90s.

    I wasn't "groomed" into crime / never became addicted to anything,did well in school etc.. There were plenty of facilities growing up.

    Scum will be scum and their involvement in society should be taken away from them even if that means locked up for life.


    This whole thing of the "poor criminal - grew up in a bad area,had nothing gowing up etc etc" really gets me. And even worse if its used as an excuse to get away with a crime or lesser sentence just so they can go back out and do the same thing the next day.


    If you ask me the singular problem is concurrent sentencing. Some of these so called underprivileged criminals have dozens of convictions that they serve a single sentence for or should I say serve sentences at the same time for. Do away with concurrent sentencing and make them all consecutive and see how they take to that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 470 ✭✭The Oort Cloud


    we have to remember that these people are victims themselves, there's no facilities for them growing up, they get groomed into crime in deprived areas and end up with addiction problems and learning difficulties because they left school early, we need a more holistic approach to dealing with them instead of locking them away, they tried putting people in jail in america and look how that turned out.


    Ah please ffs.

    Individual people have different thoughts and understanding in regard to others opinions, but the problem is this... there are some people out there that will do everything in their power to cut you off when they do not like your opinion even when it is truth.

    https://youtu.be/v8EseBe4eIU



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 8,361 ✭✭✭AllForIt


    There is an aspect to this I wish to point out and that is in relation to our country's historical catholic inspired attitudes to 'the poor' which has now morphed into something the socialist left types use to their advantage. It very much matches Christopher Hitches view of what Mother Theresa did, which was taking in the poor, letting them be and die under her care, but not do anything to address the underlying causes that had them is such a state when she was donated millions to do so. But it's grown even more sinister now in our country.

    We talk of our society being divided into classes, upper, middle, working, lower. I think it's more accurate to describe society by various micro cultures, rather than simply by relative wealth. Indeed the state has no issue describing the travelling community as an ethnic minority but to me they are better described as a micro culture, one of many.

    Society never refers to these micro cultures by name, except for travellers which is an exception. Instead we refer to them by socio-economic circumstances i.e. people living in deprivation, deprived areas, the disadvantaged - which intentionally takes away all personal responsibility from them and blames the rest of society instead.

    I am going to use the micro-culture that lives in Dublin's inner city as an example, the ones who use O'Connell street as their back garden. Their turf. Lets think about how Dublin councillors, politicians, socialist, lefties regard this micro culture. Well it's basically the Mother Theresa attitude but worse. They regard them like a protected minority and use them as pawns for their political aims, which is to use them as examples of inequality, injustice, to criticize the capitalist system etc. So anything bad they engage in is essentially general societies fault.

    What is even more infuriating is that in recent years concerns about racism, domestic violence, rape are being highlighted in the media on a daily basis. But what is never highlighted is - in which micro cultures these things are most prevalent. Nope. No way. To take a recent incident actor Ciarán Hinds was racially abused on the streets of Dublin during the filming of Normal People. Any recognition of the micro culture the 'gang of preteens' hail from? No, it is used as evidence that racism is endemic in Ireland. Similarly an Irish woman of Nigerian ancestry on the Late Late last night spoke of racial abuse graffiti in Bray. Do you know anyone in your micro culture that sprays graffiti on walls for any reason? No, I doubt it. Yeah but you take the heat for it for not standing up to racism. Somehow your unconscious prejudices have morphed into something more serious in other micro cultures you have no connection with. So it's all your fault, yet again.

    So, lenient sentencing. In respect of lenient sentencing for those from 'disadvantaged' backgrounds, I disagree vehemently with the view of lighter sentences and rehabilitation. It is my view that those from inner city micro cultures should get LONGER sentences than average. Because the micro culture they hail from makes it much LESS LIKELY they will change their ways and therefore require longer more severe sentences to get them to reform if they care capable of reforming at all. Prison is for punishment and punishment is the rehabilitation technique. The idea that prison should be like checking into the Betty Ford clinic or engaging in physiological therapy sessions like they do in the states is laughable. Completely nutty lefty 'progressive' fantasy is what that view is.

    Even even if there were some rehabilitate technique that worked 100% that would still not be the efficient way to deal with the problem. The way to deal with the problem is to get rid of these micro demographics in the first place instead of sustaining them. Because sustaining them to a level where they don't need to work, where they do noting to progress themselves in any way like most people do, where they are free to wander around the city all day and night, will guarantee they as a problem will never ever go away. They have to be socially engineering out of society altogether. But unfortunately there are some who have a warped fetish for these micro cultures that are descendants of Dublin's properly deprived inner city communities of the distant past. Those people weren't scum, they genuinely lacked opportunity and bear no resemblance to today's worthless, feckless, disruptive, shameless, belligerent, miscreant micro cultures they have morphed into today.

    Yes I know, strong words and a long post but this issue is complex. What angers me is our political class both cause these problems and no one seems to want to do anything about it either except blame ordinary descent law abiding Irish citizens for their behaviour.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,958 ✭✭✭tinofapples


    AllForIt wrote: »
    There is an aspect to this I wish to point out and that is in relation to our country's historical catholic inspired attitudes to 'the poor' which has now morphed into something the socialist left types use to their advantage. It very much matches Christopher Hitches view of what Mother Theresa did, which was taking in the poor, letting them be and die under her care, but not do anything to address the underlying causes that had them is such a state when she was donated millions to do so. But it's grown even more sinister now in our country.

    We talk of our society being divided into classes, upper, middle, working, lower. I think it's more accurate to describe society by various micro cultures, rather than simply by relative wealth. Indeed the state has no issue describing the travelling community as an ethnic minority but to me they are better described as a micro culture, one of many.

    Society never refers to these micro cultures by name, except for travellers which is an exception. Instead we refer to them by socio-economic circumstances i.e. people living in deprivation, deprived areas, the disadvantaged - which intentionally takes away all personal responsibility from them and blames the rest of society instead.

    I am going to use the micro-culture that lives in Dublin's inner city as an example, the ones who use O'Connell street as their back garden. Their turf. Lets think about how Dublin councillors, politicians, socialist, lefties regard this micro culture. Well it's basically the Mother Theresa attitude but worse. They regard them like a protected minority and use them as pawns for their political aims, which is to use them as examples of inequality, injustice, to criticize the capitalist system etc. So anything bad they engage in is essentially general societies fault.

    What is even more infuriating is that in recent years concerns about racism, domestic violence, rape are being highlighted in the media on a daily basis. But what is never highlighted is - in which micro cultures these things are most prevalent. Nope. No way. To take a recent incident actor Ciarán Hinds was racially abused on the streets of Dublin during the filming of Normal People. Any recognition of the micro culture the 'gang of preteens' hail from? No, it is used as evidence that racism is endemic in Ireland. Similarly an Irish woman of Nigerian ancestry on the Late Late last night spoke of racial abuse graffiti in Bray. Do you know anyone in your micro culture that sprays graffiti on walls for any reason? No, I doubt it. Yeah but you take the heat for it for not standing up to racism. Somehow your unconscious prejudices have morphed into something more serious in other micro cultures you have no connection with. So it's all your fault, yet again.

    So, lenient sentencing. In respect of lenient sentencing for those from 'disadvantaged' backgrounds, I disagree vehemently with the view of lighter sentences and rehabilitation. It is my view that those from inner city micro cultures should get LONGER sentences than average. Because the micro culture they hail from makes it much LESS LIKELY they will change their ways and therefore require longer more severe sentences to get them to reform if they care capable of reforming at all. Prison is for punishment and punishment is the rehabilitation technique. The idea that prison should be like checking into the Betty Ford clinic or engaging in physiological therapy sessions like they do in the states is laughable. Completely nutty lefty 'progressive' fantasy is what that view is.

    Even even if there were some rehabilitate technique that worked 100% that would still not be the efficient way to deal with the problem. The way to deal with the problem is to get rid of these micro demographics in the first place instead of sustaining them. Because sustaining them to a level where they don't need to work, where they do noting to progress themselves in any way like most people do, where they are free to wander around the city all day and night, will guarantee they as a problem will never ever go away. They have to be socially engineering out of society altogether. But unfortunately there are some who have a warped fetish for these micro cultures that are descendants of Dublin's properly deprived inner city communities of the distant past. Those people weren't scum, they genuinely lacked opportunity and bear no resemblance to today's worthless, feckless, disruptive, shameless, belligerent, miscreant micro cultures they have morphed into today.

    Yes I know, strong words and a long post but this issue is complex. What angers me is our political class both cause these problems and no one seems to want to do anything about it either except blame ordinary descent law abiding Irish citizens for their behaviour.

    I enjoyed that, thanks.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,969 ✭✭✭McCrack


    AllForIt wrote: »
    There is an aspect to this I wish to point out and that is in relation to our country's historical catholic inspired attitudes to 'the poor' which has now morphed into something the socialist left types use to their advantage. It very much matches Christopher Hitches view of what Mother Theresa did, which was taking in the poor, letting them be and die under her care, but not do anything to address the underlying causes that had them is such a state when she was donated millions to do so. But it's grown even more sinister now in our country.

    We talk of our society being divided into classes, upper, middle, working, lower. I think it's more accurate to describe society by various micro cultures, rather than simply by relative wealth. Indeed the state has no issue describing the travelling community as an ethnic minority but to me they are better described as a micro culture, one of many.

    Society never refers to these micro cultures by name, except for travellers which is an exception. Instead we refer to them by socio-economic circumstances i.e. people living in deprivation, deprived areas, the disadvantaged - which intentionally takes away all personal responsibility from them and blames the rest of society instead.

    I am going to use the micro-culture that lives in Dublin's inner city as an example, the ones who use O'Connell street as their back garden. Their turf. Lets think about how Dublin councillors, politicians, socialist, lefties regard this micro culture. Well it's basically the Mother Theresa attitude but worse. They regard them like a protected minority and use them as pawns for their political aims, which is to use them as examples of inequality, injustice, to criticize the capitalist system etc. So anything bad they engage in is essentially general societies fault.

    What is even more infuriating is that in recent years concerns about racism, domestic violence, rape are being highlighted in the media on a daily basis. But what is never highlighted is - in which micro cultures these things are most prevalent. Nope. No way. To take a recent incident actor Ciarán Hinds was racially abused on the streets of Dublin during the filming of Normal People. Any recognition of the micro culture the 'gang of preteens' hail from? No, it is used as evidence that racism is endemic in Ireland. Similarly an Irish woman of Nigerian ancestry on the Late Late last night spoke of racial abuse graffiti in Bray. Do you know anyone in your micro culture that sprays graffiti on walls for any reason? No, I doubt it. Yeah but you take the heat for it for not standing up to racism. Somehow your unconscious prejudices have morphed into something more serious in other micro cultures you have no connection with. So it's all your fault, yet again.

    So, lenient sentencing. In respect of lenient sentencing for those from 'disadvantaged' backgrounds, I disagree vehemently with the view of lighter sentences and rehabilitation. It is my view that those from inner city micro cultures should get LONGER sentences than average. Because the micro culture they hail from makes it much LESS LIKELY they will change their ways and therefore require longer more severe sentences to get them to reform if they care capable of reforming at all. Prison is for punishment and punishment is the rehabilitation technique. The idea that prison should be like checking into the Betty Ford clinic or engaging in physiological therapy sessions like they do in the states is laughable. Completely nutty lefty 'progressive' fantasy is what that view is.

    Even even if there were some rehabilitate technique that worked 100% that would still not be the efficient way to deal with the problem. The way to deal with the problem is to get rid of these micro demographics in the first place instead of sustaining them. Because sustaining them to a level where they don't need to work, where they do noting to progress themselves in any way like most people do, where they are free to wander around the city all day and night, will guarantee they as a problem will never ever go away. They have to be socially engineering out of society altogether. But unfortunately there are some who have a warped fetish for these micro cultures that are descendants of Dublin's properly deprived inner city communities of the distant past. Those people weren't scum, they genuinely lacked opportunity and bear no resemblance to today's worthless, feckless, disruptive, shameless, belligerent, miscreant micro cultures they have morphed into today.

    Yes I know, strong words and a long post but this issue is complex. What angers me is our political class both cause these problems and no one seems to want to do anything about it either except blame ordinary descent law abiding Irish citizens for their behaviour.

    Like it or not but everyone is treated equally before the law, asking that a court when sentencing to give longer sentences to someone from a certain background or post code address is wrong. A person from an affluent area with higher education that commits a crime should be treated the same as a person that comes from a disadvantaged area with little formal education.

    Obviously the court will consider each offender and their personal circumstances/prior history but to say that a person should be penalised with a longer sentence because of their postal address is wrong.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,069 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    we have to remember that these people are victims themselves, there's no facilities for them growing up, they get groomed into crime in deprived areas and end up with addiction problems and learning difficulties because they left school early, we need a more holistic approach to dealing with them instead of locking them away, they tried putting people in jail in america and look how that turned out.

    What are these "faciliteeeees" that these places are supposedly lacking?
    Rural Ireland must be a gangland paradise because it doesn't have any "faciliteeees" either.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,110 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    What are these "faciliteeeees" that these places are supposedly lacking?
    Rural Ireland must be a gangland paradise because it doesn't have any "faciliteeees" either.

    It's the lack of strong role models, I.e. parents, that are the problem IMO. It's a cultural issue for a tiny minority in society. If you go to a working class area, they are still in the minority but they are a slightly larger minority.

    Let's be honest here, we are talking about a tiny percentage of society who are criminals. An even smaller minority who are repeat offenders. And then a minority so small they almost insignificant(in statiscal terms, they have a disproportionate effect on society) who are beyond rehabilitation.

    If we apply a system of punishment to the former, because of the latter is this going to help society? No, it will just mean more people locked up longer.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Registered Users Posts: 8,361 ✭✭✭AllForIt


    McCrack wrote: »
    Like it or not but everyone is treated equally before the law, asking that a court when sentencing to give longer sentences to someone from a certain background or post code address is wrong. A person from an affluent area with higher education that commits a crime should be treated the same as a person that comes from a disadvantaged area with little formal education.

    Obviously the court will consider each offender and their personal circumstances/prior history but to say that a person should be penalised with a longer sentence because of their postal address is wrong.

    You are somewhat misrepresenting me here although I admit I wasn't detailed on that aspect of my post as my whole post was rather general.

    I was not suggesting is someone comes from micro-culture x they get an automatic higher sentence. I am saying it should be taken into account as a negative factor rather than a mitigating factor which it often is.

    I'm saying you start off with very substantial high sentence for violent crime for everyone. Then the judge can subtract years of the high sentence per case If you come from a stable family background time may be subtracted and if you don't then why would you.

    If one doesn't have a role model, if one comes form a feckless family that live off the state from birth, then when that person is released from prison they are much more likely to repeat offend. Wouldn't that assumption be a fairly obvious one. I'm sure there are stats that would back that up.

    How could a child from micro culture x have a role model? How could someone who never works be a role model to a child? It is the whole culture they live in that is the problem and we should invest time and money figuring out how we integrate them into 'normal' society.


    Just one think to add, I was listing to an officer on UK radio who was talking about rehabilitation and how it works there. Basically an officer will take them out of their cell and have a word in their ear in private on the stairs. Change your ways or you'll be back in here kinda thing. It wasn't a bit surprised to hear that because I always though that those who advance rehabilitation are just virtue signalling when in reality it really is not even a thing.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,110 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    AllForIt wrote: »
    You are somewhat misrepresenting me here although I admit I wasn't detailed on that aspect of my post as my whole post was rather general.

    I was not suggesting is someone comes from micro-culture x they get an automatic higher sentence. I am saying it should be taken into account as a negative factor rather than a mitigating factor which it often is.

    I'm saying you start off with very substantial high sentence for violent crime for everyone. Then the judge can subtract years of the high sentence per case If you come from a stable family background time may be subtracted and if you don't then why would you.

    Sounds like a great way of punishing people for coming from poorer areas and letting richer people off with lower sentences. People from richer areas already get lighter sentences thanks to letters written by TDs, Solicitors, Teachers etc. .

    Just one think to add, I was listing to an officer on UK radio who was talking about rehabilitation and how it works there. Basically an officer will take them out of their cell and have a word in their ear in private on the stairs. Change your ways or you'll be back in here kinda thing. It wasn't a bit surprised to hear that because I always though that those who advance rehabilitation are just virtue signalling when in reality it really is not even a thing.

    And how is it done in Ireland? Which is the subject at hand.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Registered Users Posts: 601 ✭✭✭RandRuns


    Brian? wrote: »
    And how is it done in Ireland? Which is the subject at hand.

    How is it done in Ireland?

    And perhaps more importantly, is there any evidence that it works?

    The excuse for lenient sentencing here seems to be "let's rehabilitate rather than punish" (or keep the public safe), so is this just, as I suspect, pie in the sky to keep the legal gravy train moving, or do we actually successfully rehabilitate?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,423 ✭✭✭batman_oh


    we have to remember that these people are victims themselves, there's no facilities for them growing up, they get groomed into crime in deprived areas and end up with addiction problems and learning difficulties because they left school early, we need a more holistic approach to dealing with them instead of locking them away, they tried putting people in jail in america and look how that turned out.

    The gangs around East Wall have more 'facilities' than pretty much any kid anywhere in Ireland. Just because they chose to wreck everything and act like little scrotes is nothing to do with magical facilities that seems to be a weirdly repeated line by people defending them. The problem is that most are coming from welfare class (not working class) parents that really don't have any interest in raising them.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 601 ✭✭✭RandRuns


    The "faciliteeeees" argument is easily disproved - pretty much the whole of rural Ireland is a faciliteeeeeees black spot - how come we haven't a wave of culchie knife and drug crime?


Advertisement