Why is Ireland's justice system so lenient?

portlygent

I'm genuinely astounded when I read the news. Its not uncommon for someone who has committed a serious assault to be given a fully suspended sentence, despite numerous previous convictions.

Is it due to over-packed prisons? If so, why haven't we built more, or even re-start the Thorton Hill prison, which was planned before the crash?

Is it an ideology that has changed? Have we become a soft touch?

Galwayguy35

The Governmant parties have no interest in changing things, SF would be no different.

Probably the lack of prisons and soft touch government.

I'm grateful that the far/alt right in Ireland are such morons as the door is wide open for them.

Mimon

portlygent wrote: »

I'm genuinely astounded when I read the news. Its not uncommon for someone who has committed a serious assault to be given a fully suspended sentence, despite numerous previous convictions.

Is it due to over-packed prisons? If so, why haven't we built more, or even re-start the Thorton Hill prison, which was planned before the crash?

Is it an ideology that has changed? Have we become a soft touch?

Judges live in their Ivory towers and have zero chance of being a victim of crime.

They should have to live for a couple of months of the year in the rougher parts of our country and see what normal people have to deal with from the scobes.

Idbatterim

Biggest issue is lack of prison spaces. But it's also a cash cow, when you only lock up the most serious offenders, it's very lucrative for the legal service, free legal aid and keeps a lot more judges, solicitors etc on the gravy train...

KevRossi

FF-FG-GP-Lab-SD won't do anything to protect their buddies who are earning hand over fist with the free legal aid.

SF-PBP-Solidarity won't do anything as it keeps their voters out of prison.

Urquell

I always wonder if cost is a problem. If we had to take 5000 scumbags off the street , some for up to 10 years, how much?

That and the legal system. Its a regular paycheck for those folks, the same old heads roll in and need "representation". How do you explain those with well over 100 convictions? Why would the legal system, no doubt a powerful group in their own right, act against their interests by not opposing more prisons, longer sentencing...

Kaisr Sose

Idbatterim wrote: »

Biggest issue is lack of prison spaces. But it's also a cash cow, when you only lock up the most serious offenders, it's very lucrative for the legal service, free legal aid and keeps a lot more judges, solicitors etc on the gravy train...

Thats it both there. Remember Thornton Hall... They said they needed it.
Status today: Never built

Very few womens prison spaces.

And the gravy train of free legal aid and recidivism ensures a steady need for District Court Judges.

Rinse and repeat the cycle. In fairness I recall a comment from a judge when they encountered someone in court that they had previously issued a custodial sentence. They demanded to know why the offender was back before the courts when they should be serving time. I think no space was the answer.

Samsonsmasher

We don't have enough prison cells.

Also our politics is predominantly left wing liberal and progressive because that is prevailing ideology of people who enter the legal profession and academia.
The emphasis is on the perpetrator his/her rights and toward rehabilitation rather than retribution.

Habitual criminals usually have personality disorders due to their chaotic upbringings with a pattern of physical psychological and sexual abuse combined with poverty depravation and family breakdown contributing to their formation that led to criminality.

This is all taken into account.

Hence the leniency.

Sleeper12

A young man got the probation act today. He issued death & racist threats against Ian Wright. Judge seems to think its a "boys will be boys" type of thing.

Sleeper12

Kaisr Sose wrote:

Thats it both there. Remember Priory Hall... They said they needed it. Status today: Never built

Priory Hall is the apartment complex that was built, without fireproofing, in Clongriffin on Dublins Northside.

Thornton Hall was to be the new prison

Kaisr Sose

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Priory Hall is the apartment complex that was built, without fireproofing, in Clongriffin on Dublins Northside.

Thornton Hall was to be the new prison

My bad, realised after posting it. Went back there and changed it.

Faugheen

Lads, you’ll hear one case out of hundreds everyday where it appears to be lenient.

Anyone who thinks the system is lenient in the main hasn’t a clue. Yes it can be very disheartening to hear about these in the paper, but that’s exactly why they’re printed; to cause outrage.

If you had every sentencing or every ruling printed every day then the newspaper would be like a novel.

The_Brood

Some countries have police brutality which is sickening, but Ireland's 'let thugs go free so they can assault normal people' approach is equally abhorrent. There needs to be some kind of middle ground.

Faugheen

Faugheen wrote: »

Lads, you’ll hear one case out of hundreds everyday where it appears to be lenient.

Anyone who thinks the system is lenient in the main hasn’t a clue. Yes it can be very disheartening to hear about these in the paper, but that’s exactly why they’re printed; to cause outrage.

If you had every sentencing or every ruling printed every day then the newspaper would be like a novel.

Well there appears to be one judge in particular who seems to love sex offenders. Every time this judge sentences a sex offender it's obnoxiously lenient. Obviously I won't name the judge, but anyone who follows the news will know who I'm referring to.

Should the media not report this?

Esho

I think there is an element of gravy train in this.
Remember what happened to Alan Shatter when he tried to reform the legal system?
Eye opener to be in court, where the sons of the most privileged are representing the sins of the least privileged in legal aid.

Ireland doesn't have police who will bock the knollox out of the shytes who are acting up either.
Not anymore anyway. They just shrug their shoulders about anti social behaviour and petty assault and theft.

The verdict and sentence in the Ian Wright abuse case is laughable.

It gives a clear message that racist abuse can be written off as a bit of boyish banter.

jay0109

Faugheen wrote: »

Lads, you’ll hear one case out of hundreds everyday where it appears to be lenient.

Anyone who thinks the system is lenient in the main hasn’t a clue. Yes it can be very disheartening to hear about these in the paper, but that’s exactly why they’re printed; to cause outrage.

If what you say is true, then we wouldn't be reading about people before Judges with dozens/hundreds of prior convictions

Water John

And we have the US to show us the way it should work.

wes

I don't think we should emulate what the US is doing, as what they do is over board in the other direction.

We also don't even try to rehabilitate anyone either. We should look to other countries and see what works. We need to cut down on reoffending big time.

Basically we have the worse of all worlds. We don't lock people up for violent crimes long enough imo and we don't even try to rehabilitate people so they don't do it again.

I think the system needs to be designed around making sure people do not reoffend. If we are not locking them up for life, then the goal is to make sure they leave prison reformed, and that is imo how we should judge our justice system.

Richard Hillman

No party wants to go after crime for 2 reasons. They know if they fail, it's a stick to bat them with. The other reason is because they don't want to appear right wing.

I have raised this a few times because not many people know and its will have huge impacts on housing estates with trouble makers. The recent Programme for Government said it wanted to expand the Youth Diversion Scheme from 18 up to 24. This means that until you are 24 you would have to commit a very serious offence to go to prison. We are talking murder, attempted murder, arson, rape etc. Anything else will just get sent to the Junior Liason Officer who will have a stern word with them and no conviction.

Idbatterim

Irelands political spectrum, options from the left to the far left, what a choice !

Geuze

I still can't get over the Eamon Lynch case.

483 convictions.

I am genuinely curious as to what happens in UK, FR, DE if you have 483 convictions?


He was drink-driving, at up to 100mph, with no driving licence or insurance, was banned from driving, when he ploughed into another car, the other driver was killed.

18 months in prison.


To add insult to injury, and this is unbelievable, Eamon Lynch then tried to sue the dead man's family insurer, trying to claim for his own injuries.

I love Ireland, but sometimes it drives you mad.

beakerjoe

Aegir wrote: »

The verdict and sentence in the Ian Wright abuse case is laughable.

It gives a clear message that racist abuse can be written off as a bit of boyish banter.

When the judge said he saw nothing to be gained by giving a custodial sentence, I was shocked.

Surely it would be a huge deterrent and send a message that racist hate mail is not gonna fly these days.

But Mr Judge knows better I guess

beakerjoe

Geuze wrote: »

I still can't get over the Eamon Lynch case.

483 convictions.

I am genuinely curious as to what happens in UK, FR, DE if you have 483 convictions?


He was drink-driving, at up to 100mph, with no driving licence or insurance, was banned from driving, when he ploughed into another car, the other driver was killed.

18 months in prison.


To add insult to injury, and this is unbelievable, Eamon Lynch then tried to sue the dead man's family insurer, trying to claim for his own injuries.

I love Ireland, but sometimes it drives you mad.

Im a firm believer that when you habitually commit crimes or commit a serious crime, rehab just wont work.

They should be just locked away forever. No use to society

18 months is a joke.

rossie1977

Idbatterim wrote: »

Irelands political spectrum, options from the left to the far left, what a choice !

Left and far left lol

That one aspect of communism that still applies in China/North Korea/Cuba today is how lenient they are on crime and how few people are in prison in those countries.....

Irelands political options left wing holy f**k

jimmycrackcorm

Ireland is very left centred in general for everything from prison sentencing to putting up homeless people in hotels. Maybe it's not such a bad thing as we're much better than the US as an example.

However, we never take any better policy examples from anywhere else. Education from Finland, housing from Singapore, Drugs from Netherland/Portuagal, Water charges from every other country in Europe.

Strumms

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

The Governmant parties have no interest in changing things, SF would be no different.

SF would be mega lenient on violent crime, any crime they’d just blame the lack of opportunity for people... blahh blahhh

They’d reduce the number of prison places too to deter judges from handing out custodial sentences and to appeal further to the criminal classes and the nerdowells, who vote for SF...

SF would be an absolute disaster....the have nots would be given everything free gratis and the actual ‘WORKING’ people would be taxed to and through the bôllocks for daring to make something of and for themselves as well as contributing to the state and its running... theyd have fûck all to gain from a SF government... only scratchers, criminals and ner - do well chronically repeating hand out merchants who know and want no different would be winners.

yoke

What is this bull**** about "left wing" and "right wing"? Does everyone have to conform to one of these 2 "preset" sides?

For example, I love shooting guns (in places where it's not going to get me into trouble with the law), driving insanely fast (in places where it's not going to get me into trouble with the law), fighting (in places where it's not going to get me into trouble with the law), and I think people who start conflicts (eg. name-calling or assaulting people without provocation) should be punished harshly (prison is not enough punishment), and I love eating meat (it's tasty. even if you don't eat meat, you're still a killer cos you'd be killing cabbages).

However, I also am an atheist (hate all religions as they are lies), I support immigration (we either stand united, or we go to war with each other incessantly - "peace" can only be a temporary stage between separated nations), I support gay rights (hate people who pick on gays or minorities of any kind as that is the sign of a coward, ie. someone who picks out outnumbered people or people who don't want to fight to make themselves look strong) , I support science and **** that actually works, etc.

Please explain if I am left wing or right wing, and give the reasoning for your answer in no less than 100,000 words.

jimmycrackcorm

yoke wrote: »

Please explain if I am left wing or right wing, and give the reasoning for your answer in no less than 100,000 words.

Put your details into politcal compass and let us know.

Wanderer78

portlygent wrote:

Is it due to over-packed prisons? If so, why haven't we built more, or even re-start the Thorton Hill prison, which was planned before the crash?

No conclusive evidence to support, jailing more for longer, actually truly reduces crime, and it's bloody expensive

joeguevara

portlygent wrote: »

I'm genuinely astounded when I read the news. Its not uncommon for someone who has committed a serious assault to be given a fully suspended sentence, despite numerous previous convictions.

Is it due to over-packed prisons? If so, why haven't we built more, or even re-start the Thorton Hill prison, which was planned before the crash?

Is it an ideology that has changed? Have we become a soft touch?

Do you have examples of fully suspended sentences for serious assault and also evidence that it's not uncommon?

Also (not directed to you) why are posters directing scorn at the government for the so called sentence leniency when separation of powers prohibits such intervention from them apart from the sentence in legislation.

I do agree with posters Regarding certain sentences in a particular crime that beggars belief.

yoke

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Put your details into politcal compass and let us know.

Thank you. It says I'm left wing libertarian so.

It never asked me questions about attitude to guns, fighting, eating meat, so obviously if you take my attitude to all those things out, then what's left of me is quite "left wing".

Thus, either that website is completely wrong, or the people on this website (who keep equating "left wing" with "people who don't like fun things") are completely wrong in their definition of what actually falls under "left wing".

Economic Left/Right: -6.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.18

Wanderer78

yoke wrote:

Thus, either that website is completely wrong, or the people on this website (who keep equating "left wing" with "people who don't like fun things") are completely wrong.

Ah people are nuts, shur Some think I'm some loony socialist, haven't a balls notion what that actually is myself

malinheader

If you have a good parish priest or your friends with a member of the gardai, better still if a family member is one then you a get out of jail card when up in front of the judge.

Priest's and police still have alot of clout when writing these pillars of the community/ reformed character references for scumbags.

timetogo1

Wanderer78 wrote: »

No conclusive evidence to support, jailing more for longer, actually truly reduces crime, and it's bloody expensive

In the case of Eamon Lynch we could probably assume that he wouldn't have been able to rack up 483 convictions. So there's one reduction.

He might be the worst offender but how many convictions should be too much. 10? 20? 50? How about we just lock up people who have 50 convictions. Doesn't seem like a low number to me (as somebody who had managed to get through life with 0)

Is the cost of putting a person in prison more expensive that the cost of crime on the victims. In the case of that Eamon guy it's hard to put a price on the life of the person he killed. I'd say the prison cost is worth it.

weldoninhio

People can blame the police, the judiciary, the free legal aid bandwagon and any number of things. But the main reason is because Irish people are soft as shyte.

How many people contact their TDs about the ridiculous light sentencing? How many bring it up when politicians are looking for a vote? Very few, otherwise it would be a huge election issue and there would be a political will to fix it.

People nowadays are worried only about what affects them. Crime is something they read about. People in the thread seem shocked that the driver with 400 odd convictions only got 18 months, he’ll only serve less than 10 months. Automatic remission is another joke.

Wanderer78

Wanderer78 wrote: »

No conclusive evidence to support, jailing more for longer, actually truly reduces crime, and it's bloody expensive

timetogo1 wrote: »

In the case of Eamon Lynch we could probably assume that he wouldn't have been able to rack up 483 convictions. So there's one reduction.

He might be the worst offender but how many convictions should be too much. 10? 20? 50? How about we just lock up people who have 50 convictions. Doesn't seem like a low number to me (as somebody who had managed to get through life with 0)

Is the cost of putting a person in prison more expensive that the cost of crime on the victims. In the case of that Eamon guy it's hard to put a price on the life of the person he killed. I'd say the prison cost is worth it.

.............

meathstevie

Wanderer78 wrote: »

No conclusive evidence to support, jailing more for longer, actually truly reduces crime, and it's bloody expensive

It is an indisputable fact that an individual who’s serving a sentence in prison is unable to commit crime in the community while locked up. There is on the other hand ample evidence of criminals and suspects out on suspended sentences and out on bail committing numerous crimes.

I believe in giving people an opportunity at rehabilitation and education as an element of a custodial sentence but not for individuals with more convictions than PRSI contributions.

Rack’em and stack’em and keep them out of circulation for as long as possible should be the only driving policy there.

Wanderer78

Wanderer78 wrote: »

No conclusive evidence to support, jailing more for longer, actually truly reduces crime, and it's bloody expensive

meathstevie wrote: »

It is an indisputable fact that an individual who’s serving a sentence in prison is unable to commit crime in the community while locked up. There is on the other hand ample evidence of criminals and suspects out on suspended sentences and out on bail committing numerous crimes.

I believe in giving people an opportunity at rehabilitation and education as an element of a custodial sentence but not for individuals with more convictions than PRSI contributions.

Rack’em and stack’em and keep them out of circulation for as long as possible should be the only driving policy there.

how do you feel about paying more taxes?

timetogo1

Wanderer78 wrote: »

how do you feel about paying more taxes?

The cost to society isn't free to have these guys repeatedly out and committing crimes. There's the cost to the victim, probably a cost to us as insurance premiums increase, the cost to the state in investigating and prosecuting and in some cases there's life cost.

I'd prefer to pay more taxes than pay those costs. I have a friend who had a life changing injury caused by a guy with previous convictions. The cost to me was zero. The cost to him is incalculable. I'm sure he'd prefer to be paying some of the cost in more taxes rather than the cost it's had on his life.

Edit: For the hard of comprehending. The monetary cost to me (in the incident I describe above) was zero as it had nothing to do with me. I'm not implying that I have no costs or don't pay taxes in Ireland. This sounds obvious and it will be to most people but some people (see the next post) will have trouble understanding.

Wanderer78

timetogo1 wrote: »

The cost to society isn't free to have these guys repeatedly out and committing crimes. There's the cost to the victim, probably a cost to us as insurance premiums increase, the cost to the state in investigating and prosecuting and in some cases there's life cost.

I'd prefer to pay more taxes than pay those costs. I have a friend who had a life changing injury caused by a guy with previous convictions. The cost to me was zero. The cost to him is incalculable. I'm sure he'd prefer to be paying some of the cost in more taxes rather than the cost it's had on his life.

can you please explain to us how you have achieved a zero tax world?

Aegir

Aegir wrote: »

The verdict and sentence in the Ian Wright abuse case is laughable.

It gives a clear message that racist abuse can be written off as a bit of boyish banter.

You realise you are suggesting jail for calling people names though..

Wanderer78

timetogo1 wrote: »

Way to have the point go over your head.
I didn't imply at all that I live in a zero tax world.

you claimed your friends dreadful experience didnt cost you anything, but it obviously did, and it had a dreadful emotional cost to them and you

Geuze

Geuze wrote: »

I still can't get over the Eamon Lynch case.

483 convictions.

I am genuinely curious as to what happens in UK, FR, DE if you have 483 convictions?


He was drink-driving, at up to 100mph, with no driving licence or insurance, was banned from driving, when he ploughed into another car, the other driver was killed.

18 months in prison.


To add insult to injury, and this is unbelievable, Eamon Lynch then tried to sue the dead man's family insurer, trying to claim for his own injuries.

I love Ireland, but sometimes it drives you mad.

Would you believe it, a very similar case in the new today.

https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/banned-driver-who-killed-farmer-was-arguing-with-girlfriend-at-time-of-crash-40050554.html

The exact same road, Ballybofey to Letterkenny.

Again, a banned driver is speeding.

This time the driver was aged just 22 at the time of the incident.

The driver was banned from driving for 7 years at the age of 22, due to other dangerous driving charges.

The driver has 44 previous convictions, by age 24.


All the well-intentioned happy-clappy talk from the extreme-left won't work with these people, blaming the system, etc.

Henry Kiely was convicted 44 times. "The system" did not commit the crimes, Henry Kiely did.




[PS How come these lads always seem to have girlfriends???]

Is garlic man out yet? Has he reoffended?

Wanderer78

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

Is garlic man out yet? Has he reoffended?

heard he moved into the onions market, and is trying to keep a low profile

RandRuns

Not sure if somebody has mentioned this already, but to those who are against longer sentences (or locking up criminals in general), statistics on whether or not this makes people more or less likely to commit a crime is moot in my opinion - locking up criminals, especially recidivist criminals gets them off the street - they won't commit any crimes while inside, so that's a win.

We all know the "83 previous convictions, but he's doing his best your honour" types that appear in every court in the country, week in week out.
If these people were locked up for a decent length of time, imagine the amount of crime they simply wouldn't be able to commit. Imagine the amount of Garda time and resources freed up for other duties. That's a win for society.

Wanderer78

once again!

Wanderer78 wrote: »

No conclusive evidence to support, jailing more for longer, actually truly reduces crime, and it's bloody expensive

RandRuns wrote: »

Not sure if somebody has mentioned this already, but to those who are against longer sentences (or locking up criminals in general), statistics on whether or not this makes people more or less likely to commit a crime is moot in my opinion - locking up criminals, especially recidivist criminals gets them off the street - they won't commit any crimes while inside, so that's a win.

We all know the "83 previous convictions, but he's doing his best you honour" types that appear in every court in the country, week in week out.
If these people were locked up for a decent length of time, imagine the amount of crime they simply wouldn't be able to commit. Imagine the amount of Garda time and resources freed up for other duties. That's a win for society.

RandRuns

Wanderer78 wrote: »

once again!

Read my post again.

Wanderer78

RandRuns wrote: »

Read my post again.

why, whats it gonna do?