NFL Draft 2021

eagle eye

BonnieSituation wrote:

Me too, me too; I also hate the Patriots.

Good for you.

letowski

Foxtrol wrote: »

Really call Jacobs worth a 1st round pick? (not sure on sarcasm). Based on so many later round RBs I wouldn't call it positive

Yeah that is true, I was refering to that point that drafting a RB in round 1 isnt great value. He was a hit I suppose, in terms that he is a good player.

Oat23

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Me too, me too; I also hate the Patriots.

Given their success over the past 20 years I would probably hate them too but I waste all my energy hating Aaron Rodgers and myself instead.

Foxtrol

eagle eye wrote: »

I have no intention of talking to you about Jones.

I was talking about you being a hater, nothing to do with Jones.

Jones may or may not make it but he reminds me so much of Brady coming out of college only more developed. That's all I wanted, none of these running QBs for me whose career could end at any time when taking the ball outside the pocket.

No intention of talking to me about your pick, your only intention is to call me a 'hater' :rolleyes:

I, along with several other 49ers posters, said we'd be unhappy having a guy leading our team who got into a car crash while drunk, only luck stopped it from it being another Britt Reid situation.

Sure, he could be Brady but comparing any rookie to your 'GOAT' seems like a hiding to nothing. He could work out but without mobility the floor is low and likely ceiling is low - see every QB that fits his background for the last decade. Basically Goff is the closest to a successful player in his mold and he is has better physical attributes.

Foxtrol

Oat23 wrote: »

Given their success over the past 20 years I would probably hate them too but I waste all my energy hating Aaron Rodgers and myself instead.

I waste it screaming at Wilson, while thanking god he doesn't have a good offensive minded coach.

el Fenomeno

eagle eye wrote: »

That's all I wanted, none of these running QBs for me whose career could end at any time when taking the ball outside the pocket.

That's questionable logic, at best.

The only high profile early retirement due to injury in the last few years was Andrew Luck, who was seen as the best pocket QB prospect maybe ever?

Foxtrol

Giants spending more money on WR. Gettleman trading back and not picking a hogmollie (especially after the money in FA) - I'm shocked

Foxtrol

el Fenomeno wrote: »

That's questionable logic, at best.

The only high profile early retirement due to injury in the last few years was Andrew Luck, who was seen as the best pocket QB prospect maybe ever?

I get what you're saying but Luck and Jones are on different planets.

If Jones had Luck's arm I'd get the pick but Jones' is average NFL level and worse than all 4 of the QBs before him. Luck had a cannon, Jones is meh - way poorer than Brady even at his current age

el Fenomeno

Foxtrol wrote: »

I get what you're saying but Luck and Jones are on different planets.

If Jones had Luck's arm I'd get the pick but Jones' is average NFL level and worse than all 4 of the QBs before him. Luck had a cannon, Jones is worse than nearly every successful pocket QB - way poorer than Brady even at his current age

I think you're arguing against a point I'm not making, because I'm not comparing them at all.

I'm questioning the logic of wanting a non-mobile QB because they are less likely to suffer a career ending injury.

Foxtrol

el Fenomeno wrote: »

I think you're arguing against a point I'm not making, because I'm not comparing them at all.

I'm questioning the logic of wanting a non-mobile QB because they are less likely to suffer a career ending injury.

Sorry, I agree with you - there is no evidence of recent mobile QBs having a longer career than mobile ones.

My point was more that Jones doesn't even have the same physical attributes as Luck so he is in even a worse position.

letowski

My Colts take Kwity Paye. Happy.

Foxtrol

letowski wrote: »

My Colts take Kwity Paye. Happy.

Like the pick. Depends who falls in the 2nd for OT. Your season all depends on Wentz anyway

letowski

Foxtrol wrote: »

Like the pick. Depends who falls in the 2nd for OT. Your season all depends on Wentz anyway

Thats it, thankfully its a deep T class. I kind of like the risk on passing on one.

Foxtrol

letowski wrote: »

Thats it, thankfully its a deep T class. I kind of like the risk on passing on one.

With the deep class and Nelson inside you can take that risk

Foxtrol

Steelers going RB when their OL is a mess...

Not going to end well

ACitizenErased

Love the Faley pick for us. Top 10 talent if the injuries work out. J-Rob knows best.

letowski

Ravens get a WR1. Bateman. Good pick for them.

Foxtrol

letowski wrote: »

Ravens get a WR1. Bateman. Good pick for them.

Decent pick. Smaller than expected but depends how Lamar spreads it around. Might seem as good as he is

Foxtrol

:D:D

https://twitter.com/KingJosiah54/status/1387954110884814852?s=20

Xavi6

Pretty enjoyable first round once we got beyond the drawn out intro and the obvious first two picks.

eagle eye

Foxtrol wrote:

If Jones had Luck's arm I'd get the pick but Jones' is average NFL level and worse than all 4 of the QBs before him. Luck had a cannon, Jones is meh - way poorer than Brady even at his current age

Brady
Positives: Good height to see the field. Very poised and composed. Smart and alert. Can read coverages. Good accuracy and touch. Produces in big spots and in big games. Has some Brian Griese in him and is a gamer. Generally plays within himself. Team leader.

Negatives: Poor build. Very skinny and narrow. Ended the '99 season weighing 195 pounds and still looks like a rail at 211. Looks a little frail and lacks great physical stature and strength. Can get pushed down more easily than you'd like. Lacks mobility and ability to avoid the rush. Lacks a really strong arm. Can't drive the ball down the field and does not throw a really tight spiral. System-type player who can get exposed if he must ad-lib and do things on his own.

Jones
Positives: Poised and tremendously smart quarterback whose game has been on a straight shot north since November 2019. Patient in the pocket, buys time for receivers, and displays tremendous sense and wherewithal of what’s happening on the field. Goes through progressions, distributes the ball to all his targets, and takes the safe underneath outlet if nothing else is available.

Nicely sets up screen passes, throws a catchable ball, and displays a sense of timing on passes. Accurate, does not have receivers waiting on the ball. Shows great pass placement, putting throws where only his receiver can make the reception. True field general who does a great job commanding and controlling the offense.

Negatives: Lacks great arm talent and cannot drive passes downfield. Doesn’t pick up much yardage with his legs nor is he effective on designed runs. Has a thin body of work at the college level

Christy42

Broncos were probably the biggest surprise for me. I thought they were going Fields but even if they didn't like him then corner was not a position of need. Got a good player but weird pick. Definitely messed over the Cowboys with that pick.

Disappointed getting Etienne for the Jags. We have a lot of picks but also a lot of holes. A 3rd down back didn't seem the biggest need. I expect us to go defense first in the second round but that could have easily been 2 big defensive names for us. I know RB was pegged to Steelers for a while but they will need to fill in holes in that offensive line or will get smacked right after the hand off.

Bears and Eagles played their hands well and got guys they wanted with those trades.

I am unconvinced about Mac Jones but I can see why he is worth a shot. He has a narrow road to being great given he needs to play within a structure, limited mobility compared to his peers and has lower arm strength than most pocket passers. Probably more mobile than Brady ever was but definitely seems to have a weaker arm. A lot of what made Brady great hasn't been tested yet but I don't think Brady could do those things out of college either (he was 4th on the depth chart after camp for a reason I suspect). He is a bit of an unknown with limited college games and had an armchair ride at QB. However he made the plays he had to, if you have time in the pocket use it. If your first read is wide open you throw it.

Cowboys and Giants felt they were caught out a bit by picks ahead of them. Gruden obviously has his own ideas with that Leatherwood pick. Colts will be seen as a bad pick if they can't get a decent tackle later.


I could see Zach Wilson have a Peyton style rookie year. BYU didn't play against good opposition and he took advantage. Like Mac Jones, if something works you do it but he will need to train himself out of so many jump balls. Having said that he has some good tools in his bag so if he can deal with the learning curve and is supported by the Jets I think he could improve a lot. Peyton Manning had a Peyton style rookie year and did alright.


Oh I thought Smith would have been a better fit for Tua than Waddle. Heck even Waddle was surprised when they called his name.

Itssoeasy

I made it to the Mac Jones last night live and I’ll watch the rest later before night 2, Which will be a full live watch given it’s Friday night. I’m very happy with the eagles first round selection and hopefully more good picks to come. The bears fans must be slightly giddy with them getting Justin fields and potentially not having to face Aaron Rodgers and him doing his Willis Reed impression. The thing is though there’s Matt Nagy so maybe it goes to ****.

BonnieSituation

Oat23 wrote: »

Given their success over the past 20 years I would probably hate them too but I waste all my energy hating Aaron Rodgers and myself instead.

We all need to bear a cross.of some description.

Kerry and the Patriots are mine.

Foxtrol

eagle eye wrote: »

Brady
Positives: Good height to see the field. Very poised and composed. Smart and alert. Can read coverages. Good accuracy and touch. Produces in big spots and in big games. Has some Brian Griese in him and is a gamer. Generally plays within himself. Team leader.

Negatives: Poor build. Very skinny and narrow. Ended the '99 season weighing 195 pounds and still looks like a rail at 211. Looks a little frail and lacks great physical stature and strength. Can get pushed down more easily than you'd like. Lacks mobility and ability to avoid the rush. Lacks a really strong arm. Can't drive the ball down the field and does not throw a really tight spiral. System-type player who can get exposed if he must ad-lib and do things on his own.

Jones
Positives: Poised and tremendously smart quarterback whose game has been on a straight shot north since November 2019. Patient in the pocket, buys time for receivers, and displays tremendous sense and wherewithal of what’s happening on the field. Goes through progressions, distributes the ball to all his targets, and takes the safe underneath outlet if nothing else is available.

Nicely sets up screen passes, throws a catchable ball, and displays a sense of timing on passes. Accurate, does not have receivers waiting on the ball. Shows great pass placement, putting throws where only his receiver can make the reception. True field general who does a great job commanding and controlling the offense.

Negatives: Lacks great arm talent and cannot drive passes downfield. Doesn’t pick up much yardage with his legs nor is he effective on designed runs. Has a thin body of work at the college level

Brady was a 6th round pick for those reasons, whereas Jones has now gone mid first round. Again, if you're betting on Jones improving like Brady then you have to admit you're reaching and setting him up for failure. Much more likely that his ceiling is Dalton or he goes the way of every limited pocket passer selected in the draft for the last decade and fails.

I do like the Jones pick at 15 a hell of a lot more than when the media was trying to push him to the 9ers at 3. I don't think he'll be a complete bust but the AFC is now stacked with explosive QBs and I just don't think a likely ceiling of an average pocket passer is good enough to aim for to be successful.

I went on a long rant about Jones on the 49ers thread last weekend and below is a excerpt of my specific concerns. These all still stand and if anything his situation is even worse due to his landing spot, aside from not being hated by the fanbase.

Foxtrol wrote: »

There are few arguments that are trotted out for Jones that I just don't see. That he is the:

• Safest pick - we've seen over and over again in recent seasons how less mobile QB rookies struggle compared to those that move outside the pocket, especially when they don't have a top tier arm nor the ability to perform outside of structure. He also has the most red flags out of the QB group from trouble with the law (at least one DUI), bad physical shape, personality issues, inability to beat out a player who has hardly set the NFL on fire, social media issues, and inexperience (has as many games as Lance, who has been consistently dinged for this despite being 3 years older when he earned most of his starts).
• Most pro ready - it is easy to look the most pro ready when you're in the perfect situation in Alabama - your feet look good and you can go through progressions when your OL is 9 out of 10 times going to each do everything perfectly to protect you, you can throw with anticipation when you have multiple 1st rounds WRs and a 1st round RB who nearly always win their 1 on 1s, you can have ridiculously high competition stats when the OC is scheming these talented players open and giving you a huge number of dump offs/screens. When Jones was taken away from all of this at the Senior Bowl (like he will be in the NFL), he struggled all week and in no way looked like a guy who should go at 3. When people say the most pro ready it seems like they really mean that he is the closest to his ceiling and this is what he'll be as a pro.

eagle eye

Foxtrol wrote:

Brady was a 6th round pick for those reasons, whereas Jones has now gone mid first round. Again, if you're betting on Jones improving like Brady then you have to admit you're reaching and setting him up for failure. Much more likely that his ceiling is Dalton or he goes the way of every limited pocket passer selected in the draft for the last decade and fails.

Brady was a sixth round pick because they all got it wrong, not for the first time either, take a look at Fran Tarkenton, Kurt Warner, Joe Montana, Dan Fouts and Norm Van Brocklin for example and there's more HOF'amers and many who were just below HOF standard.
And Andy Dalton was an excellent QB for a few years too.

Foxtrol wrote:

I do like the Jones pick at 15 a hell of a lot more than when the media was trying to push him to the 9ers at 3. I don't think he'll be a complete bust but the AFC is now stacked with explosive QBs and I just don't think a likely ceiling of an average pocket passer is good enough to aim for to be successful.

Who are these explosive QB's you speak of outside of Mahomes and Josh Allen?
I don't see any who have shown anything in the playoffs, of those in their twenties.

Foxtrol wrote:

I went on a long rant about Jones on the 49ers thread last weekend and below is a excerpt of my specific concerns. These all still stand and if anything his situation is even worse due to his landing spot, aside from not being hated by the fanbase.

Well based off of that you haven't a clue because you haven't noticed his good movement around the pocket, his quick release, his fast check downs. Only question is arm strength much like Brady had.
What I look for first in a QB before any skills is decision making and Jones makes good decisions like throwing the ball away if he has the opportunity, like taking the sack and preventing injury to himself and not trying to throw a ridic ball and getting picked. If you don't have that you have no chance of becoming a great or even very good QB in the NFL.
He's so like Brady in so many ways. What we don't know is how good his leadership qualities are, hopefully they are very good and based off of everything he has done since last night he's off to a very promising start with his team and the fans.
I'm very hopeful but realise these things don't always work out but a guy who did what he did in the biggest game he's played to date gives me a lot of hope.

I pointed out before to you the list of QB's who've been to the Superbowl over the last five years and all bar Mahomes is an old school pocket passer.

Christy42

eagle eye wrote: »

Brady was a sixth round pick because they all got it wrong, not for the first time either, take a look at Fran Tarkenton, Kurt Warner, Joe Montana, Dan Fouts and Norm Van Brocklin for example and there's more HOF'amers and many who were just below HOF standard.
And Andy Dalton was an excellent QB for a few years too.


Who are these explosive QB's you speak of outside of Mahomes and Josh Allen?
I don't see any who have shown anything in the playoffs, of those in their twenties.


Well based off of that you haven't a clue because you haven't noticed his good movement around the pocket, his quick release, his fast check downs. Only question is arm strength much like Brady had.
What I look for first in a QB before any skills is decision making and Jones makes good decisions like throwing the ball away if he has the opportunity, like taking the sack and preventing injury to himself and not trying to throw a ridic ball and getting picked. If you don't have that you have no chance of becoming a great or even very good QB in the NFL.
He's so like Brady in so many ways. What we don't know is how good his leadership qualities are, hopefully they are very good and based off of everything he has done since last night he's off to a very promising start with his team and the fans.
I'm very hopeful but realise these things don't always work out but a guy who did what he did in the biggest game he's played to date gives me a lot of hope.

I pointed out before to you the list of QB's who've been to the Superbowl over the last five years and all bar Mahomes is an old school pocket passer.

If you go back 4 years further you get 4 more scrambling appearances. You take 5 years of superbowls you get 10 appearances. 2 were Mahomes a scrambler. 4 were Brady. The GOAT and generally with a strong team around him.

1 Jimmy G. A back up after a few weeks next year. Did very little during the play off run as the team relied on the run heavily for their wins.

2 Nick Foles. 3rd choice now at his team. Was not first choice on his team at the time.

3 Matt Ryan. Definitely good at what he does but the team hasn't been relevant since. Did have some good early seasons in the play offs.

4 Jared Goff. Sent off to a team rebuilding and expected to lose a lot with this team. Managed a good year and not expected to repeat anytime soon.


Brady is unlikely. Which of the 4 above do you want?

Not explosive but Baker can definitely move around (frequently to the left but still). Tannehill also has wheels when he wants them. I don't think explosive is required but it helps and it helps to have wheels when you need them.

adrian522

I like the Mac Jones pick for New England, at 15 it was good value for him.

I would have hated SF taking him at 3. I think he has the potential to be good, above average, potential to win a lot of games, though he will need a good team around him to be successful and I think he will get that in New England.

He probably has the narrowest range of outcomes of all the QB's in the first round.

I'm not sure what the deal is on Fields or why he fell so far. Maybe he didn't interview well on zoom or wasn't able to describe plays or whatever but it seems very strange he wasn't drafted in the top 10.

Hopefully Chicago can get the best out of him and design an offense to suit his strengths.

Lance, I like the pick up to a point. He has some fairly serious accuracy issues in terms of ball placement. Hopefully that doesn't continue to be a problem as he has a lot of plus points to his game, especially his ability to throw outside the numbers and deep passes as well as what he brings to the running game. It will be interesting to see what Shanahan does in terms of opening up his offense past just the short/medium throws over the middle of recent years.

Finally Garoppolo, I doubt there is much of a trade market for him with NE and Chicago grabbing QB's. Id prefer to see Lance starting sooner rather than later but I guess Garoppolo will probably be on the roster and likely start week 1 but I'd expect Lance to be thrown in fairly quickly to be honest. There's only so much learning you can do from the sidelines.

Looking forward to tonight, still plenty of good players available.

Christy42

A separate topic is what are the Broncos waiting for? How much do they want to rebuild before getting a QB to win with. They had Fields fall to him or Mac Jones if you prefer. They went with a corner which is not a big need. I think some contracts are a year out but at what point do they try and win games? Teddy won't do it but should be better than Lock.

eagle eye

Christy42 wrote:

Not explosive but Baker can definitely move around (frequently to the left but still). Tannehill also has wheels when he wants them. I don't think explosive is required but it helps and it helps to have wheels when you need them.

You see the thing is that those wheels aren't very useful for most when it comes to the playoffs and you meet premium defenses.
I only quoted a bit of your post, it's a very good post even though I'm not in agreement with much if it but it all comes down to the playoffs for me.
As regards Jones, I believe he will be a hell if a lot better than Foles, Goff etc.
I'm hoping he'll be at worst Matty Ice level.
Again I can be wrong about these things but I really was impressed by the guy last season and it's how quick he does everything that impressed me.