Importing a classic from NI now

R1_Pete · 26-01-2021 11:10pm #1

Hi Guys,

I am strongly considering buying a classic (first one) as an interest in 2021 and something I’ve always wanted to do.

With Brexit and the new rules, can anyone tell me definitively what the current situation is with NI registered vintage imports?

Let’s say I purchase a car privately up north. £10,000 for sake of an example. It’s 30/40 years old.

What charges are liable and how are they estimated? VRT is still not applicable on a vintage car? But will VAT & import duty be due?
If so how is it calculated?

And how is purchase price verified on a private sale?

Cheers
Pete

turbocab · 27-01-2021 7:35pm

R1_Pete wrote: »

Hi Guys,

I am strongly considering buying a classic (first one) as an interest in 2021 and something I’ve always wanted to do.

With Brexit and the new rules, can anyone tell me definitively what the current situation is with NI registered vintage imports?

Let’s say I purchase a car privately up north. £10,000 for sake of an example. It’s 30/40 years old.

What charges are liable and how are they estimated? VRT is still not applicable on a vintage car? But will VAT & import duty be due?
If so how is it calculated?

And how is purchase price verified on a private sale?

Cheers
Pete

As far as i know if the car was originally registered in NI.only 200vrt is to be paid.However if the car came from uk .vat at 21per cent is also to be charged

R1_Pete · 27-01-2021 11:42pm

turbocab wrote: »

As far as i know if the car was originally registered in NI.only 200vrt is to be paid.However if the car came from uk .vat at 21per cent is also to be charged

Thanks,
I’ll call revenue anyway - but do you know if it matters when the car was registered in NI?
If it was imported from Uk to NI 10/12 years ago it’s considered NI?

Isambard · 28-01-2021 9:42am

Revenue is your best bet, none of us know for certain, we're all trying to make sense of this unexpected situation. I think it's fair to say everyone thought a deal meant no change!

galwaytt · 03-02-2021 7:10pm

Isambard wrote: »

Revenue is your best bet, none of us know for certain, we're all trying to make sense of this unexpected situation. I think it's fair to say everyone thought a deal meant no change!

No way, otherwise there'd never have been a need for a deal......

Isambard · 03-02-2021 7:34pm

galwaytt wrote: »

No way, otherwise there'd never have been a need for a deal......

did the Brexit vote pass you by? That's why a deal was needed but people assumed that deal would mean no change, they were very wrong.

reubenreuben · 03-02-2021 8:11pm

Isambard wrote: »

did the Brexit vote pass you by? That's why a deal was needed but people assumed that deal would mean no change, they were very wrong.

That's what most people thought including me but the Irish Gov also gave this the go ahead being part of the EU so did they know or not?
As they have been sold a pup if so.

galwaytt · 05-02-2021 12:13pm

Isambard wrote: »

did the Brexit vote pass you by? That's why a deal was needed but people assumed that deal would mean no change, they were very wrong.

it didn't pass me by at all: I import & export to/from the UK all day long. The very notion that Brexit would bring no change isn't believable.

Back to OP.

Very roughly, a 10k car bought in NI, assuming it's an actual NI car (and NOT a GB import into NI), the rules are effectively unchanged from before. If the car is a GB import into NI, you would be advised to work on the premise that Revenue may treat it effectively as UK import (via NI). May depend on how long it's been in NI. If for years, I'd not worry about it - but if it's recent, or specifically for sale (to RoI) buyers, Revenue have already said they will treat it as 'UK' car for customs purposes.

This is my understanding of it:

These two examples, assuming a €10,000 car, for both UK & NI purchases.

I can distill it further, very roughly as follows :

For NI classic imports, convert to Euro, add €200 VRT.

For UK classic imports, take the Sterling price, add 50%, call it Euro

reubenreuben · 05-02-2021 12:32pm

galwaytt wrote: »

it didn't pass me by at all: I import & export to/from the UK all day long. The very notion that Brexit would bring no change isn't believable.

Back to OP.

Very roughly, a 10k car bought in NI, assuming it's an actual NI car (and NOT a GB import into NI), the rules are effectively unchanged from before. If the car is a GB import into NI, you would be advised to work on the premise that Revenue may treat it effectively as UK import (via NI). May depend on how long it's been in NI. If for years, I'd not worry about it - but if it's recent, or specifically for sale (to RoI) buyers, Revenue have already said they will treat it as 'UK' car for customs purposes.

This is my understanding of it:

These two examples, assuming a €10,000 car, for both UK & NI purchases.

I can distill it further, very roughly as follows :

For NI classic imports, convert to Euro, add €200 VRT.

For UK classic imports, take the Sterling price, add 50%, call it Euro

Is there anywhere official that states revenue will do this on recently imported cars? Or is it just hear say?

unkel · 05-02-2021 12:47pm

reubenreuben wrote: »

Is there anywhere official that states revenue will do this on recently imported cars? Or is it just hear say?

Cars that were imported this year from the UK into NI and are now sold on to ROI, are effectively UK cars and above harsh tax regime applies.

Nobody seems to know for certain about UK cars imported into NI at the latest before the end of last year, but they might be ok (not attract import duty / VAT)

reubenreuben · 05-02-2021 12:52pm

unkel wrote: »

Cars that were imported this year from the UK into NI and are now sold on to ROI, are effectively UK cars and above harsh tax regime applies.

Nobody seems to know for certain about UK cars imported into NI at the latest before the end of last year, but they might be ok (not attract import duty / VAT)

Unless registered first in Ni ?

unkel · 05-02-2021 1:41pm

No. If you bring a car into NI from the UK now and register it there first and then bring it into the ROI, it's a UK import and import duty and VAT are due. That bit is crystal clear.

Isambard · 05-02-2021 3:19pm

I'm not so sure that's right (the crystal clear bit especially)

reubenreuben · 05-02-2021 3:27pm

unkel wrote: »

No. If you bring a car into NI from the UK now and register it there first and then bring it into the ROI, it's a UK import and import duty and VAT are due. That bit is crystal clear.

I'm sure thats not correct as buying from a Ni dealer would be affected by this. I called charles hurst in belfast a few weeks back and they import over 40% of their cars from GB. So if what you are saying is correct then all of those cars would have extra costs on top of vrt.

unkel · 05-02-2021 3:53pm

Yes. They are all UK import cars. If they make their way onto the ROI, import duty and VAT are due over here. I could be wrong of course, but I'm pretty confident I got this bit of the trade deal right, never mind the rest of it

ELM327 · 05-02-2021 3:57pm

unkel wrote: »

No. If you bring a car into NI from the UK now and register it there first and then bring it into the ROI, it's a UK import and import duty and VAT are due. That bit is crystal clear.

This is false, Unkle.

The important distinction here is GB vs NI
https://www.revenue.ie/en/customs-traders-and-agents/brexit/brexit-for-individuals/importing-a-vehicle-from-great-britain-gb-or-northern-ireland.aspx

From 1 January 2021 you may have to pay the following when you import a vehicle from Great Britain:

import duties
Vehicle Registration Tax (VRT)
VAT at 21%.

If a vehicle is being imported from Northern Ireland, no import duty will apply but you may be liable to pay:

Vehicle Registration Tax (VRT)
VAT at 21% (only in respect of new vehicles).

An electronic customs declaration will be required in advance of the vehicle arriving in the State.

unkel · 05-02-2021 4:15pm

You're missing the step that a vehicle is imported from the UK into NI and then exported to ROI! As far as I can see that's the same as importing directly from the UK into ROI.

reubenreuben · 05-02-2021 4:43pm

unkel wrote: »

You're missing the step that a vehicle is imported from the UK into NI and then exported to ROI! As far as I can see that's the same as importing directly from the UK into ROI.

Remember it's GB into NI.

Isambard · 05-02-2021 4:44pm

i think the way it will pan out is that a car would be duty free NI to RoI only if it it was new NI or was actually a GB car subsequently used in NI. This will run and run though, I can't see them letting Dealer's get away with bringing GB cars in via NI VAt free.

reubenreuben · 05-02-2021 4:46pm

Isambard wrote: »

i think the way it will pan out is that a car would be duty free NI to RoI only if it it was new NI or was actually a GB car subsequently used in NI. This will run and run though, I can't see them letting Dealer's get away with bringing GB cars in via NI VAt free.

It's happening already though. Part of the deal. Ni dealerships would be ruined without buyers from the south

ELM327 · 05-02-2021 5:00pm

unkel wrote: »

You're missing the step that a vehicle is imported from the UK into NI and then exported to ROI! As far as I can see that's the same as importing directly from the UK into ROI.

There's no UK.

It's GB to NI.
Then NI to ROI.

If it's an NI car there is no import duty or vat.
Once the car is registered to NI correctly after leaving GB, then there is no vat etc on import.

Isambard · 05-02-2021 5:36pm

reubenreuben wrote: »

It's happening already though. Part of the deal. Ni dealerships would be ruined without buyers from the south

from Revenue .ie "Note

Importations of used cars from Great Britain into the State must be declared to customs and are liable to customs duty and VAT on importation. The routing of such importations through Northern Ireland to avoid EU requirements in relation to customs duty and VAT at import will not be permitted. "

they'll be watching.

mgn · 05-02-2021 6:04pm

Isambard wrote: »

from Revenue .ie "Note

Importations of used cars from Great Britain into the State must be declared to customs and are liable to customs duty and VAT on importation. The routing of such importations through Northern Ireland to avoid EU requirements in relation to customs duty and VAT at import will not be permitted. "

they'll be watching.

The can watch all the like, as ELM327 above correctly said,
Once the car is registered in NI to a dealer there is no VAT on it crossing the border, business as usual for NI dealers.

We seen the quick u turn on the double VAT a few weeks ago,

unkel · 05-02-2021 6:20pm

Isambard wrote: »

from Revenue .ie "Note

Importations of used cars from Great Britain into the State must be declared to customs and are liable to customs duty and VAT on importation. The routing of such importations through Northern Ireland to avoid EU requirements in relation to customs duty and VAT at import will not be permitted. "

they'll be watching.

Exactly. Makes no difference if a private person or a dealer brings a car in from the UK / GB / England whatever the hell you want to call it via NI to ROI. VAT and import duty will be due as per GalwayTT's calculation. If a dealer doesn't charge it, he might get away with it until caught, then he will have to pay it anyway + interest + penalties

Same as not self declaring income now...

mgn · 05-02-2021 6:44pm

unkel wrote: »

Exactly. Makes no difference if a private person or a dealer brings a car in from the UK / GB / England whatever the hell you want to call it via NI to ROI. VAT and import duty will be due as per GalwayTT's calculation. If a dealer doesn't charge it, he might get away with it until caught, then he will have to pay it anyway + interest + penalties

Same as not self declaring income now...

So what you saying is that any car imported into NI from the UK after Jan 1st will have to Vat in the south.

unkel · 05-02-2021 6:46pm

Yes.

Think about it. If it wasn't the case, NI would be a hotbed for exporting everything from the UK into the EU and avoiding all import duties and VAT. That just can not be the case.

mgn · 05-02-2021 6:54pm

unkel wrote: »

Yes.

Think about it. If it wasn't the case, NI would be a hotbed for exporting everything from the UK into the EU and avoiding all import duties and VAT. That just can not be the case.

And that what's going to happen,

NI has the best of both worlds now, it is in both the UK and Europe now so has access to both markets.
Its a win win for NI dealers now.

unkel · 05-02-2021 6:57pm

I doubt that is what will happen. That would effectively mean the UK is still in the EU

Traders in NI might think this is the case, but they are mistaken. The Revenue Commissioners will come calling in a few weeks, months or years

Isambard · 05-02-2021 7:56pm

mgn wrote: »

The can watch all the like, as ELM327 above correctly said,
Once the car is registered in NI to a dealer there is no VAT on it crossing the border, business as usual for NI dealers.

We seen the quick u turn on the double VAT a few weeks ago,

That u turn was the UK making it, not our Revenue.

KevRossi · 05-02-2021 7:59pm

Revenue will soon have to define what length of time the car would need to be registered in NI before it can be considered as an NI car. Maybe 12 months, or something similar.

I also cannot fathom how Revenue are going to simply wave goodbye to the billions that are earned by VRT from 2nd hand cars sourced in GB. Once COVID is over they'll certainly need the cash and I can see some sort of exemptions being made on VAT.

Isambard · 05-02-2021 8:03pm

KevRossi wrote: »

Revenue will soon have to define what length of time the car would need to be registered in NI before it can be considered as an NI car. Maybe 12 months, or something similar.

I also cannot fathom how Revenue are going to simply wave goodbye to the billions that are earned by VRT from 2nd hand cars sourced in GB. Once COVID is over they'll certainly need the cash and I can see some sort of exemptions being made on VAT.

yes I think they will say something of that sort . They don't intend to allow NI to be a landbridge to bring in cars always intended for the Republic. They have wide powers and a car could be detained indefinitely whilst the legal situation is clarified.

mgn · 05-02-2021 8:54pm

KevRossi wrote: »

Revenue will soon have to define what length of time the car would need to be registered in NI before it can be considered as an NI car. Maybe 12 months, or something similar.

I also cannot fathom how Revenue are going to simply wave goodbye to the billions that are earned by VRT from 2nd hand cars sourced in GB. Once COVID is over they'll certainly need the cash and I can see some sort of exemptions being made on VAT.

There will still be plenty of revenue from VRT from the Irish car dealers, the are still going to be importing them.
The only difference now is it will stop people going over sourcing their own cars cutting out the middle man.

reubenreuben · 06-02-2021 2:32pm

How can a NI dealer determine who will buy his cars? Someone from north or south, he can never know.

Over the past few years I've bought cars in NI that were originally new in GB.

Brexit hasn't changed this.

I said in a previous post that big dealers like Charles Hurst import over 40% of their cars from GB.

Always been like this, some probably get exported to the South but they don't import them from GB specifically to sell to the South.

unkel · 06-02-2021 2:38pm

reubenreuben wrote: »

How can a NI dealer determine who will buy his cars? Someone from north or south, he can never know.

Doesn't matter. The NI dealer is not responsible if they sell a car in NI.

The person who actually imports the car from NI to ROI is responsible for duty / VAT if it is a GB car originally and only brought in to NI this year. Could be that same dealer, could be a private person, could be a ROI garage

reubenreuben · 06-02-2021 2:47pm

unkel wrote: »

Doesn't matter. The NI dealer is not responsible if they sell a car in NI.

The person who actually imports the car from NI to ROI is responsible for duty / VAT if it is a GB car originally and only brought in to NI this year. Could be that same dealer, could be a private person, could be a ROI garage

No. Your wrong there. Stop writing untruths please. It's only if the car was not registered in NI that the above applies.

This discussion is going around in circles.

unkel · 06-02-2021 3:51pm

reubenreuben wrote: »

This discussion is going around in circles.

Agreed

reubenreuben wrote: »

No. Your wrong there. Stop writing untruths please. It's only if the car was not registered in NI that the above applies.

I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm right, but think about it for a second. If what you say is true then the whole brexit is a farce. Just bring whatever in from GB into NI, register it if you have to (like with cars) and then export it on to ROI, and no import duty or VAT is due?

Just makes no sense...

Isambard · 06-02-2021 4:18pm

unkel wrote: »

Agreed

I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm right, but think about it for a second. If what you say is true then the whole brexit is a farce. Just bring whatever in from GB into NI, register it if you have to (like with cars) and then export it on to ROI, and no import duty or VAT is due?

Just makes no sense...

i agree but that is the deal. Once it's properly brought to NI , it can be taken to the Republic with no extra taxes. However I suspect it won't be that simple. We shall see.

80sDiesel · 06-02-2021 5:19pm

It’s very simple.

VAT is charged on used cars going from GB to NI as NI is in the EU customs territory. Paid on import.

The complicated answer is that NI can’t avail of the margin scheme on second hand goods thus VAT payable. Exception is if the U.K. seller is VAT registered ,(buyer and seller)

on_the_roots · 06-02-2021 5:57pm

unkel wrote: »

Just bring whatever in from GB into NI, register it if you have to (like with cars) and then export it on to ROI, and no import duty or VAT is due?

Just makes no sense...

Yes, exactly like this. There is no specification about how long a used car must be registered in NI before being imported to ROI without paying VAT.

Basically NI is now a bridge to import used cars from GB bypassing VAT, as long as this is legally transferred to NI in the middle.

I believe at some point Revenue in ROI will specify a minimum time for a car to be registered in NI but this is currently not the case.

Esel · 06-02-2021 10:38pm

Presumably, the dealers in the north will be factoring the VAT they paid when importing into their retail price.

unkel · 06-02-2021 10:51pm

Esel wrote: »

Presumably, the dealers in the north will be factoring the VAT they paid when importing into their retail price.

They didn't pay any VAT when importing...

Esel · 06-02-2021 10:55pm

unkel wrote: »

They didn't pay any VAT when importing...

Are you *sure* that is the current (2021) situation?

unkel · 06-02-2021 10:58pm

Yep, certain. Bring in a motor from England into NI and register it there and there is no import duty or VAT due.

80sDiesel · 06-02-2021 11:31pm

No import duty but VAT is payable unless GB seller is VAT registered (as is importer).

unkel · 06-02-2021 11:34pm

80sDiesel wrote: »

No import duty but VAT is payable unless GB seller is VAT registered (as is importer).

Woot? This is the classic cars forum, so we are talking second hand cars, right?

80sDiesel · 06-02-2021 11:40pm

Yep. It’s quite simple. Private buyer has to pay VAT on import from GB to NI. VAT registered buyer from VAT registered seller is the exception.

They can’t avail of the second hand margin scheme .

Probably deserve a sticky.

As below:

Second-hand goods margin scheme

Although there is scope within the EU to have a national margin scheme, HMRC’s policy paper sets out that this will not be possible for GB-NI movements from 1 January 2021.

This represents a significant previously unidentified commercial change for many businesses in NI who purchase from GB, notably the second-hand car dealer industry. We understand that HMRC are in ongoing discussions with Government Ministers on this point; however, the current position is that this will need to be raised directly with the European Commission

Isambard · 06-02-2021 11:48pm

unkel wrote: »

Woot? This is the classic cars forum, so we are talking second hand cars, right?

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/brexit/used-car-dealers-urge-clarity-over-new-fees-for-cross-border-trade-39970557.html

80sDiesel · 06-02-2021 11:56pm

Isambard wrote: »

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/brexit/used-car-dealers-urge-clarity-over-new-fees-for-cross-border-trade-39970557.html

Ah so they are going to reinstate the margin scheme. Guessing it’s not reinstated yet?

Isambard · 07-02-2021 12:02am

80sDiesel wrote: »

No import duty but VAT is payable unless GB seller is VAT registered (as is importer).

i think I'm right in saying if they are registered, they then have to pay vat on the profit when they sell the car. non registered importers into NI pay VAt

unkel · 07-02-2021 12:15am

Isambard wrote: »

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/brexit/used-car-dealers-urge-clarity-over-new-fees-for-cross-border-trade-39970557.html

It's a feckin sh1tstorm, so it is

"Northern Ireland dealers can import vehicles from Britain, then sell them on without the added cost, said Cecil Hetherington, managing director of Used Cars NI"

He would say that, wouldn't he

"people from the RoI Revenue are saying something different at the moment"

Isambard · 07-02-2021 12:34am

i kind of get the feeling people will get a shock VRTing them!

It seems to me that all goods entering the EU area have to pay VAT and in the case of NI the border is the Irish Sea. Having done that, they can move the goods to RoI without further tax. The protocol is for NI to RoI goods, not GB to NI

Importing a classic from NI now

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