Brexit Impact on Northern Ireland

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121007363#Comment_121007363

IF you don't represent the view of your electorate, you don't get re-elected.

Sure, you can lead them, but you can't lead them anywhere, you can only lead them where they are willing to go. Many people are surprised by the level of support that there is for the DUP position from their electorate, but it seems to be real, however much people may believe it is wrong. There is a responsibility on politicians to respond to concerns of voters, ignoring those only leads to problems down the line. Continuously telling the DUP and their voters that they are wrong is a bad approach, finding a way to get them on board with a pragmatic solution is the route to take.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121007624#Comment_121007624

 Continuously telling the DUP and their voters that they are wrong is a bad approach, finding a way to get them on board with a pragmatic solution is the route to take.

The WF and the Protocol before it were 'pragmatic solutions'.

serfboard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121007363#Comment_121007363

Providing leadership is a job that you or I might want politicians to do in an ideal world, but in reality they are more followers than leaders.

dublin49

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121008498#Comment_121008498

100%,look at Starmer avoiding saying anything that might offend Brexiteers ,when he should really be leading the charge back to a closer relationship with Eu.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121008498#Comment_121008498

So at what point do you tell politician or electorate that they are a minority (25%?) and it is time to move on to where the 75% want to go?

The British and Irish government have already agreed at St Andrew's what should happen if the Executive fails, is it time for them to act on their agreement?

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121008498#Comment_121008498

"They're not doing their job" is what I hear you say. Yes, they often don't, but we can criticise them for that.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121007624#Comment_121007624

Yeah, but what do you do when they absolutely refuse to get on board with pragmatic solutions?

The DUP doesn't like the WF and strongly encourages its supporters to be angry about it. But the DUP was an enthusiastic cheerleader for the hard Brexit that the WF was created to facilitate. At a time when the views of the DUP about Brexit actually mattered, they could have thrown their weight behind the forces calling for a Brexit that wouldn't require the WF or anything like it; instead they togged out for the other team.

Hindsight is a wonderful teacher, but there are some who will not be taught. It's even clearer now than it was then that ameliorating or removing the WF requires the UK to pivot to a much softer Brexit. True, that's harder now than it would have been back in 2017-2021, but its still the only game in town. But the DUP won't have a bar of it; there has never been a whisper out of them that Westminster needs to craft a Brexit that doesn't involve a border. The responsibility for getting rid of the WF lies with everyone, so far as the DUP is concerned, except the people who actually need and want the WF, who must be indulged and accommodated at whatever cost.

So. Reflecting and even encouraging your voters' distaste for the WF, while refusing to adopt the political strategies that might address the problem, is pretty appalling behaviour. The DUP will see the union collapse and NI burn before they will admit that they made a mistake and led their voters in a disastrous direction. It is contemptible.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121010346#Comment_121010346

The DUP/TUV and belligerent Unionist/Loyalist political class and commentariat have spent years vilifying and lundying anyone who steps out of their line on Brexit, the Protocol and WF.

They, not the electorate, have framed it as 'Union subjugating' or the dismantling of the Union, when to all other observers and their highest courts, it is none of those things.

It is bizarre to see some here defend them and ask for clemency/understading or appeasement.

I suspect it is because Unionism having to accept what a huge majority of MPS want and what a 75% majority of the people want and taking responsibility for what they alone delivered to their electorate, might be seen as a win for someone else.

Or maybe it's because if Unionism accepts there would be a Nationalist FM, a dread that they have in common with some Unionists too, the Jim Allister types anyhow.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121010566#Comment_121010566

I understand why some might see the WF as "union subjugating", really. But, if it is, that is because it has to be in order to meet the objectives of the hard Brexit movement which the DUP enthusiastically supported and still supports.

A necessary step to remediating the WF is to reject the hard Brexit that requires it; the DUP are not prepared to take that step.

I do not know whether this is because they are too massively insecure to face up to the fact that they have made a serious mistake, or whether they are pathetically codependent on the loony wing of the Tory party, the only British political faction which even pretends to take them seriously (though, as we can now see, it is indeed a pretence).

Either way, the gap between what the DUP say (probably truthfully) that they want and the opposing actions that they are taking is verging on the pathological. I wouldn't mind, but more people than the DUP are being hurt by this political nervous breakdown.

pixelburp

Asda the first supermarket to adapt towards the Windsor Framework's requirements: "Not for EU" featuring on its meat & dairy products. The bus is truly beginning to leave for the DUP and its supporters 'cos the New Normal is starting to assert itself.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/aug/23/first-not-for-eu-labels-appear-on-supermarket-food-in-northern-ireland-brexit-asda

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121010346#Comment_121010346

The DUP campaigned for a hard Brexit in the mistaken belief that it would lead to a hard border on this island. They underestimated the power of the Irish government, particularly Fine Gael, in Brussels, thanks to its membership of mainstream European political movements. Irish diplomacy through the Ministers and DFA working closely together delivered on this.

They might have got away with it had Sinn Fein been in government down here at the time of Brexit. Lacking the connections and being seen as the Irish Syriza would have left them without an audience in Brussels.

serfboard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121017006#Comment_121017006

Easy enough for Asda (and Sainsburys) to do as they don't have any outlets in the Republic. Tesco might be a different story.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121017871#Comment_121017871

As revisionism goes that post takes some beating.

Fine Gael were opposed to special status for Northern Ireland

Mr Kenny's minority Fine Gael-led government is opposed to a special EU status for Northern Ireland, warning it could set a precedent that would worry other European countries.

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/gerry-adams-hard-border-inevitable-unless-ni-given-special-status-post-brexit/35459893.html

and had to be convinced that it was the only solution. As early as 2016 other parties were calling for the solution we have now.

Sinn Féin president Gerry Adams said in his speech that the Government needed to uphold the wishes of the Northern Ireland people and secure a special status for the region.

SDLP leader Colum Eastwood also made the case for getting a bespoke deal for Northern Ireland.

“We haven’t given our consent to leave the European Union, that’s why we have to fight tooth and nail to protect the people of Northern Ireland – the 56% who voted to remain within the European Union,” he said.

https://www.itv.com/news/utv/2016-11-02/party-leaders-call-for-special-status-for-northern-ireland-at-brexit-talks

serfboard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121017871#Comment_121017871

Either naive or wishful thinking to believe that it was only Fine Gael that could have done this, or that Sinn Fein couldn't. There was and would have been a whole green jersey approach taken by the entire Irish political and diplomatic system irrespective of who was in power.

There is also a suggestion in your post that Brussels would more likely have sided more with non-EU member Britain, than with EU member Ireland, had there been a different government in place. Would never have happened.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121018127#Comment_121018127

There was and would have been a whole green jersey approach taken by the entire Irish political and diplomatic system irrespective of who was in power.

Absolutely that is what happened. Once the government were convinced of the solution it was green jersey time all round.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121017871#Comment_121017871

You have absolutely no evidence for that view and are just showing your obsession with SF.

However, as a mod here, I'm tempted to threadban you for your ongoing anti-SF trolling but I'll give you a final warning: tone down the obsession or go elsewhere!

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121017006#Comment_121017006

This is a bit irregular. This meat is produced and processed in NI and one presumes that it complies with EU standards. An implication that NI meat cannot or should not be sent to the EU is not what was intended by the Windsor Framework, it was designed to mark British products on sale in NI.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121018114#Comment_121018114

FG's concern, I think, was that special status for NI wouldn't appeal to the EU, who preferred a UK-wide approach to avoiding a hard border. Plus, a UK-wide approach would also have suited IRL better; the measures adopted to avoid a hard border in NI would also have helped protect IRL-GB trade from the impact of Brexit.

And, it will be recalled, the first WA that the EU negotiated with May did provide for a UK-wide approach to avoiding a hard border. The EU and IRL were happy with that; it was the UK that decided it wasn't happy, and refused to ratify the deal it had negotiated. The reason we have the NI Protocol is because the Johnson government asked for it; they wanted special status for NI, since that facilitated a harder Brexit for GB than was otherwise attainable.

All of which makes the DUP's position richly ironic. The WF wasn't forced on them by the EU, or by IRL, or by Varadkar, or by whoever their villain du jour is. All of those parties would have preferred a different, UK-wide approach. The WF was forced on the DUP by the hard Brexiters to whom they had given such unstinting support.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019250#Comment_121019250

Presumably meat produced in NI could very easily avoid the "not for EU" label, but there is no reason why ASDA would want it to; they have no outlets in the Republic, and so no need for separate supply chains for meat produced in NI and meat produced in GB. It suits them to have all their meat consistently labelled, even though they don't have to.

Risteard81

The truth is that Brexit has been entirely positive for the Six Counties. Foreign rule imposition from Brussels was always a negative (in the same way as foreign rule imposition from England is). The Free State must now leave the hated so-called "EU" and return to the sovereign 32-County Irish Republic, free from the centre to the sea, and with no involvement in the Treasonous so-called "EU" project.

For what died the Sons of Róisín?

pixelburp

Again with the "so called" part. It's not "so called" the EU, it's the EU.

And as for calling the Republic the "free state" maybe learn the right name of countries before trotting out some twinkly eyed DeValera fantasy, mixed with EU hypochondria.

Risteard81

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019500#Comment_121019500

If i don't recognise it as a Union of Europe then so-called is completely correct and accurate.

The country of Ireland has 32-Counties and no fewer.

I have no time for de Valera.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019501#Comment_121019501

A fantasist then. The EU exists and your personal recognition is immaterial and irrelevant. By all means discuss the realities of the Windsor Framework and post Brexit Ni instead of invented 32 county countries that don't exist.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019501#Comment_121019501

Mod: no trolling - do not post in this thread again!

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019400#Comment_121019400

Whatever there concerns were, they were not initially in favour of Special Status and there were several meetings like the one linked above, calling on them to look for it. They eventually joined other political parties on the island and pulled on the green jersey.

Coveney, McEntee and Richmond as principal government figures, certainly acquitted themselves well in the negotiations, there is no doubt about that, credit is due to almost all of our political class, north and south for the united front shown and for the work they did convincing the rest of the EU to make Ireland a priority consideration.

retalivity

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019426#Comment_121019426

Brexit has been a positive for the North purely because it is not contiguous with the rest of the UK, and so needed special negotiations/dispensations to deal with the land border. The benefits of this has been plain to all to see except the DUP/TUV folk, who would rather live in poverty to maintain their 'union', than propserity by any other means.

And when you see the state of the UK now, a country and economy multiple times larger than Ireland, and the problems faced by pulling out of the largest trade bloc right on its doorstep, how the hell would Ireland cope? It would be like a return to the 50s, a collapse in FDI and wages, high tarriffs, supply issues etc. Either that, or we would be looking at closer alignment with the UK (unwillingly, again), or becoming a de-facto 51st state

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019659#Comment_121019659

I completely agree with you that the Irish - government, political class, public service - played a blinder on this, asserting and defending the national interest to great effect. I recall thinking at the time of the Brexit negotiations that (a) the Irish government was clearly operating much more intelligently and effectively than the UK government, and (b) that even if there had been a change of government in one or both countries, this would still have been true. And - ahem - I haven't always felt this way about Irish governance.

As for special status for NI, the Irish always wanted it, and worked for it, in the context of the EU — e.g. the EU declaration that, if NI were to join IRL as envisaged by the GFA, it would automatically be in the EU without any need to accede, meet convergence criteria, etc. I don't think the EU has made a similar declaration with respect to any other country or territory.

But IRL was slow to demand separate status for NI within the UK. Partly because that's a very sensitive issue - per the GFA, relations between NI and GB are not IRL's concern - and partly because all-UK measures to avoid a hard border would suit IRL much better anyway. The 2019 Joint Declaration (a triumph of Irish diplomacy!) leaned very strongly in that direction. The reason NI ended up with special status within the UK after all is not because the Irish pressed for it; it's because the British did.

Which is richly ironic. To the extent that nationalists/republicans in NI are pleased that NI has a different Brexit than GB does, they owe their thanks not to any of the nationalist parties in Ireland, but to the Tories. And similarly for unionists/loyalists in NI who are upset about this; they know who is to blame, even if it sticks in their craws to say it.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019722#Comment_121019722

If you were arguing for 'special status within the EU' you were also arguing for special status within the UK. If EU special status was agreed then NI would have had what no-one else in the UK had - a separate 'special' status.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019752#Comment_121019752

Not necessarily. For example, we could imagine a Brexit in which (a) the EU gave NI special status through the declaration already mentioned, but (b) the UK as a whole pursued a soft Brexit, which meant that a hard border in Ireland could be avoided without any requirement for controls amounting to a "sea border" between NI and GB. That would have been IRL's dream Brexit, to be honest.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019776#Comment_121019776

But, as the British PM at the time was saying 'Brexit means Brexit'.

Those arguing against that knew special status in the EU meant special status in the UK.