Brexit Impact on Northern Ireland

reslfj

A quick question about roaming on the island of Ireland.

What are the rules for Irish based, NI based and GB based mobile subscriptions when moving around the island of Ireland?

I have found a §11 about telecommunication in the WA/NIP https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex%3A12020W%2FTXT , but I'm far from sure personal roaming is covered?

I know my DK phone provider (3 subsidiary) has included the UK in its the EU pricing. I had no problems when I recently visited both Ireland and NI including crossing the land border several times in a bus.

Lars 😀

Sam Russell

I am surprised there are no complaints from NI about the unfair shipping costs for things bought from GB.

A lot of on-line sites quote shipping as free (except for NI, Scottish Islands, plus a few more places).

Surely, it should be the same price (free) for shipping anywhere in the United Kingdom Single Market - or perhaps it is not so 'single' after all.

Of course it is not easy to make a three word slogan about this particular aspect of NI/GB trade.

schmoo2k

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119468834#Comment_119468834

This was the case before Brexit as well

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119470721#Comment_119470721

Yes, I know, but it is still an issue.

Why are they not protesting about it? Surely, it should be including on the normal UK distribution system.

Capt'n Midnight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119470746#Comment_119470746

"Highlands and Islands" were always different. And NI was a step down from there before it remained in the EU Customs Union.

Anecdotal evidence that NI is more of a pain for small/medium GB companies to export to than Europe

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119412432#Comment_119412432

I find society in NI very fragmented, and often riddled with problems everywhere one looks.

If there is talk about a possible referendum regarding re-uniting Ireland one should keep in mind, that these would all be problems the Republic would have to deal with.

What would Dublin then do, in dealing with the UFF or the UDF? Would Dublin accept murals of Oliver Cromwell heroically on a horse as we see them today in parts of Ulster? Or when marching season is on? Any reaction from Dublin will certainly not be a neutral one, not in the eyes of protestants.

I think it would have been better Brexit would never have happened, Belfast and Dublin having their governments, and the border being as transparent and invisible as possible.

Sam Russell

The problems after UI would be similar to the situation following the treaty in 1922.

Some of those who preferred the British regime left, some joined in with the new regime, and some just hunkered down and kept a low profile. The professionals - the law, and medicine - just carried on doing what they did and sending out their bills. Those in the civil service did whatever suited them - many leaving, but many just joining the new regime.

Some put up covert resistance like the banks who did not help the new regime raise needed funds, but that faded as the new regime managed to get the needed credit. Government funding was in a parlous state for the new Irish Free State - the term Free was a bit of an ironic label.

I cannot see the UFF or UDF managing to get any real numerical support. If the real leaders have any sense they will join and participate with the new politic.

If the UI is able to achieve sufficient financial support from the EU, USA, and the UK so that there is a positive improvement in the current living standards in NI, then any problem arising from UI in NI will soon be forgotten.

Capt'n Midnight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119483220#Comment_119483220

Look at the street names mostly unchanged apart from Patrick , O'Connell and the 1916 leaders. Lots of existing statues, old postboxes still have royal logos and there's the Royal Dublin Society and the Royal National Lifeboat Institution.

Marching season happens in parts of the south too. Rossnowlagh had one guard on duty and the constitution guarantees right to assembly unless there's probable cause so no parades commission.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119483220#Comment_119483220

What parts of Dublin do you think will be painting murals of Oliver Cromwell?

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119487499#Comment_119487499

Well, following independence, they was great enthusiasm for renaming streets in Irish, but when no-one could find their way around, they dropped the idea and put the old signs back. I think the stations were only renamed in in 1966, but I may be wrong in that.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119487499#Comment_119487499

I see this mainly from a historical perspective. Yes, some postboxes have apparently only been painted Green, however the royal logo can sill be seen. They are rare, but can still be found around Dublin to date. I would guess that back then anything that used to be painted red, was painted green after 1921.

Also the Royal College of Surgeons has a Lion and a Unicorn on top of the roof.

BonnieSituation

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119491711#Comment_119491711

So does the Custom House; what's your point caller?

Mr.Nice Guy

https://twitter.com/SuzyJourno/status/1561252959782113280?cxt=HHwWgMC4hfHS16orAAAA

Other age groups:

45-64: 52% stay in UK / 39% reunification

65+: 54% stay in UK / 27% reunification

Overall number is 48% for remaining in the UK versus 41% for unity. The undecideds are 11%.

Is this going to prompt unionists to make a more concerted effort to win over the young, and promote a more equal and tolerant NI? Probably not...

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119488179#Comment_119488179

They were indeed, it was about all the Country could afford to mark the 50th anniversary of the Rising.

Didn't work too successfully though, my Mother - who isn't ancient - still calls them Amiens Street, Westland Row and King's Bridge.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119503020#Comment_119503020

Hmmm, another poll where one is asked "would you like a UI in 15/20 years" etc. I find it to be no more than an expression of wishy washy aspirational fluff. One would put more mental effort going into a sweet shop and picking one bar of chocolate over another. Unless these polls are connected to everyday stuff like the cost of living, cost of a health service, cost of education etc in a proposed UI, I find them to be a waste of time tbh.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119503020#Comment_119503020

All the DUP had to do was to vote for May's deal once to preserve the Union. Maybe it they'd backed Remain in 2016, some of the Leave-voting Unionists here on the mainland might have changed their minds.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119503664#Comment_119503664

That puts the UI debate on a pure pounds shillings and pence basis and panders to the old adage that Loyalist are more Loyal to the Half-crown than to the Crown.

The issue is really one based on identity and identity politics. For the first fifty years of NI's existence, neither the UK or Irish Gov were interested in the slightest in the governance of NI. The gerrymandering, oppression, and blatant discrimination against the nationalist community was just ignored. Ireland had no money and were economically depressed and could not afford to be independent, let alone take on the heavily subsidised NI. The UK had their own problems, particularly following WW II - they were broke as well - and as long as any problems in NI stayed in NI they did not know about them and did not care - as long as they stayed there.

The troubles changed this, and that change is still to play out to its logical conclusion - a UI. Brexit will accelerate this, and a recession in the UK might be the push needed for GB to stop paying for NI. Once the subsidy is reduced to the level that Ireland looks better economically, then opinions will shift. No point in being British if it also makes you poor.

However, if there is not unity in NI, at least in toleration of the other side, the a UI will be near impossible to achieve. That is what needs to be done, and with the current right wing Tory party in power, that is not going to happen in the short term.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119503664#Comment_119503664

They're clearly pointers towards a trend though, and worrying about economics waves away how seismic it is that the younger generations replacing the older are clearly not programmed by the same blockers, biases and cultural influences of what's becoming grand-parent and older demographics. Look at those groupings: a definitive No from a Northern Ireland of greying hairs, a Yes from younger - who read the news and see a Mothership increasingly hostile towards the prosperity and future of the North. Whither the young guns in the DUP, for instance? Antagonistic old codgers from the days of Drumcree actively fighting NI's future.

30 years ago those young demographics would have reflected their parents and been as definitively against unification. Heck they'd be on the streets throwing rocks at the RUC, or be sitting listening to the same sectarian guff. Now they're organising street parties, parades celebrating diversity and saying Why Not Unify? Just on social issues alone the Republic is showing a more open embrace than the increasingly belligerent mainland.

This worry about costs might come into play, but that just feels like any belief in self-determination somehow stops the moment the purse strings tighten. Which, given how utterly impoverished our own state became in the wake of our own independence, doesn't track as a true factor in the unification debate. It didn't stop us. Nationhood is an inherently emotive concept, not a logical one, I think the threat of "who pays for the NHS?" Is completely overblown (and that's speaking as someone who may not vote Yes to unification. I'm still very much on the fence)

Sam Russell

If Scotland gets independence then the term British will become English, as it already is for many in England.

What identity is there left for the Unionists and Loyalists in NI?

The power of religious identity is fading, so that identity is also fading. The economic argument is diminishing, as Ireland becomes wealthier than the UK (at least in income if not in accumulated wealth).

Interesting times ahead.

Mr.Nice Guy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119503908#Comment_119503908

I think unionists in NI are hoping if Scotland goes, England will move closer towards NI and take more of an interest. I don't see that happening. I think if the Scots leave, the English will begin to really focus more on their own identity.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119508079#Comment_119508079

Well, if Scotland vote to leave, England will then ask 'Why are we subsidising NI? - where is that anyway? - they don't even vote Tory?'

Most people in England do not even consider the Northern Irish as being British anyway.

Hermy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119509114#Comment_119509114

You don't think they'd double down re Wales/ Northern Ireland to try to hold onto what's left of the union?

retalivity

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119509136#Comment_119509136

Honestly, no.

Wales, maybe as there is a stronger link there, purely by being closer/physically connected, but English nationalism far outweighs any British/UK patriotism at this stage.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119509136#Comment_119509136

I don't believe so: open to correction but haven't some recent polls showed mainland Britain to be, at best, apathetic towards Northern Ireland and wouldn't blink an eye if they chose reunification? By and large I get an impression of deep indifference, not kinship towards Unionists. And it's not like Westminister has shown much loyalty or respect towards the leading party in NI either; playing them like fools every time, the DUP slinking back like idiot suckups.

That LucidTalk poll goes a long way to show the Youth of Northern Ireland increasingly feel no love towards the mainland; Brexit effectively demonstrating that aside from sectarian politics, Unionist sycophancy would actively pursue the sabotage the North's economic prospects. Not a great look when a Cost of Living Crisis is biting those young demographics hard. While socially, the DUP can't even claim the centre on matters of inclusivity or liberalism; striking extreme, prehistoric figures with the Republic aligning more with progressive values than increasingly "anti Woke" obsessed English politicians.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119509136#Comment_119509136

I don't see it.

The English are caring less and less about the union and the greater British identity. The Tory party does have a large contingent that will vigorously oppose breaking up the union but most people are ambivalent or apathetic about it IME. Northern Ireland is an economic sinkhole and a savvy PM might relish making a show to the Europeans and Americans about reunifying Ireland.

Wales often gets lumped in with England on a lot of things for historical reasons. Its separatist movement lacks the clout of Irish and Scottish nationalists. I can't see Wales leaving.

Sam Russell

Wales has a problem in being heavily infiltrated by English migrants who do not recognise the Welsh border as anything serious at all.

Wales was annexed by Edward 1st in 1284, and he acceded to the Welsh demand that they be ruled by a non-English speaker. Edward appointed his son, an infant, as Prince of Wales who could not speak English or anything else. It follows English Law, and is represented on the Union Flag (Union Jack) by the English and Welsh red cross on a white background. Welsh nationalism is a bit ahead of Cornish nationalism - if that puts it in perspective.

NI has a problem that they are not considered British by the English.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119509136#Comment_119509136

NI's main cultural and transport links with the UK is via Scotland. If Scotland leaves, NI becomes isolated.

Capt'n Midnight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119510263#Comment_119510263

Sorta,

Main destination would be south east England because London and that's by air.

TIR means sealed goods could go though Scotland without inspection or taxes or duty in Scotland.

Liverpool is an alternative due to poor infrastructure on the Scottish side. Welsh roads are better from Holyhead but there's still direct Dublin - Liverpool ferries.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119510263#Comment_119510263

I know. Ain't it cool?

FrancieBrady

Northern Ireland Minister Conor Burns (rumoured to want the Northern Ireland Secretary under PM Truss) signalling a definite change in tone and no mention of the The Protocol Bill but all talk of getting the Protocol itself working.

Mr Burns said changes had to be made to the Northern Ireland Protocol not just for unionists, but for the businesses affected by it.

"Frankly every aspect of unionist opinion wants changes to the way the protocol is being interpreted and applied here on the ground here in Northern Ireland," he said.

"That is a sentiment that is shared in many ways beyond unionism, by businesses whose supply chains are disrupted by the decision of many companies based in England, Scotland and Wales to stop supplying to the Northern Ireland marketplace because of the costs, the certification and the bureaucracy.

"We want to get the protocol, in a way, working for everybody in Northern Ireland, all businesses in Northern Ireland and get it to a point where it commands a greater consent."

He said if this happened the protocol could become a huge benefit to Northern Ireland as a venue for international investment.

The Unionist Twitteratti not one bit happy about it today.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/conor-burns-misguided-and-mistaken-claims-dup-after-mp-suggested-party-should-return-to-executive-41955405.html