Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VIII *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

Boggles

ArthurDayne wrote: »

I did answer the question

Nope you didn't Arthur.

You typed up a wall of text, you claimed you answered it, but you didn't.

I answered your question.

For all the claims of we need to have an adult discussion about acceptable mortality, etc.

When faced with your own question, a simple one, you can't answer it.

So I think we all found out something today, so we will leave it there.

Boggles

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

But 5000 deaths in Ireland is similar to 10,000 in Sweden
.

I know, that's why I said it.

FintanMcluskey

Boggles wrote: »

I know, that's why I said it.

So you agree Sweden has been a success?

acequion

ArthurDayne wrote: »

But see, I do not pontificate on death statistics. All I try to do is argue that even the saving of lives and the prolongation of life must be balanced with other interests — in contrast to the prevailing belief in public policy over the past year that to advocate balance is advocate nothing more than indiscriminate senicide.

My stance on these forums has always been that my argument is ethically deficient and that I myself am by no means morally perfect. What grates me are those, and I often find you to be among them, who talk to other posters on here like you have some divine access to a higher morality — that somehow you are the champion of the sanctity and value of human life, while others are just selfish cretins who think pints are more important than people.

So to answer the question. I am not OK with any death, but I accept that there is a question of proportion between allowing people to enjoy life and focusing purely on the prolongation of life. That element of “proportion” is a tough and very grey issue to unpack — I am humble enough to admit that I can’t give perfect answers on it. But when I apply my own level of proportion to this Covid crisis, it is clear to me that the virus is mainly killing people who have been fortunate enough to live very long lives (probably on average the longest living Irish people yet I imagine), and so I ask myself the question of proportionality : are the tactics we are employing to tackle this elevation of deaths, as tragic as it is, disproportionately depriving others who have not yet been able to live long fulfilled lives? Are we saddling people with years of misery, stress and (for some) poverty in order to prolong the lives of people who mostly will not live much longer in any case? What social precedents are we setting? What dangerous political forces are we unleashing?

So there you go, my answer is that I can’t put numbers on it because I believe it all has to be weighed up. But you seem much more morally confident in your views, as do all the others who wave stories of Covid death and tragedy at us, as though we were heartless ghouls who would happily switch off a life support machine for a Guinness. Hence I think it’s perfectly reasonable for those who pontificate about there being too many deaths to tell us what is not too many deaths and why.

Excellent post, thank you. The emboldened bit is spot on. If I'd a euro for each time one of those posters has mentioned doing "the right thing" as if they alone were holders of a high moral gospel. :rolleyes:

Absolutely nobody has the right to morally pontificate to others. "Let he without sin cast the first stone" and all that. Yet it's amusing to note how many, especially on social media, have almost turned it into an art form.

Boggles

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

So you agree Sweden has been a success?

I'm pretty sure Sweden are approaching 13,000 deaths and there is talk of getting ready for their 3rd wave. Unless I missed a memo is the pandemic over?

If you are judging the pandemic on just deaths, which of course is remedial in the extreme, than no Sweden has not been a success.

It right now it is a deeply divided country, with very little wriggle room left.

Say what you want about us, but the majority still back the approach and we have the lifting of restrictions to actually forward to.

FintanMcluskey

Boggles wrote: »

I'm pretty sure Sweden are approaching 13,000 deaths and there is talk of getting ready for their 3rd wave. Unless I missed a memo is the pandemic over?

If you are judging the pandemic on just deaths, which of course is remedial in the extreme, than no Sweden has not been a success.

It right now it is a deeply divided country, with very little wriggle room left.

Say what you want about us, but the majority still back the approach and we have the lifting of restrictions to actually forward to.

If you are happy with 5,000 deaths of covid vulnerable in Ireland it’s the equivalent of 15,000 deaths of Covid vulnerable in Sweden.

So you would be happy with Sweden’s approach is all I can understand from that?

The maths that were initially used to justify restrictions can now be used to counter argue those same restrictions

Boggles

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

If you are happy with 5,000 deaths of covid vulnerable in Ireland it’s the equivalent of 15,000 deaths of Covid vulnerable in Sweden.

So you would be happy with Sweden’s approach is all I can understand from that?

No Fintan, no one would be happy at deaths. "Covid Vulnerable" or otherwise.

But back in reality, I would not like to be in Sweden's position right now.

As an aside you claim you never watch that cook book writers grift videos?

You do use a lot of his phrases.

Maybe just a coincidence eh?

FintanMcluskey

Boggles wrote: »

No Fintan, no one would be happy at deaths. "Covid Vulnerable" or otherwise.

But back in reality, I would not like to be in Sweden's position right now.

As an aside you claim you never watch that cook book writers grift videos?

You do use a lot of his phrases.

Maybe just a coincidence eh?

You would not want to have lived a relatively normal life for a year?

Why

Are the restrictions a form of therapy for survivors guilt or something?

Boggles

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

You would not want to have lived a relatively normal life for a year?

They haven't Fintan, that's why they are completely fed up with the restrictions.

There is also a similar cohort fed up with the deaths and sickness.

Now you have Tegnell telling them to get ready for a third wave.

Like I said not a place I'd envy. Very little wriggle room left and a deeply scared society which has ran out of rope.

Ten of Swords

Kunta Kinte do not post in this thread again

wakka12

https://twitter.com/jurgenkloppTD/status/1360268047802642432/photo/1

completedit

Know of someone who voicefully declared thar people should stop moaning and complaining and get on with it. She is employing an outside tutor for her kids who comes into her home to deal with the burden of Covid. People are such hypocrites.

growleaves

Boggles wrote: »

As an aside you claim you never watch that cook book writers grift videos?

Delia Smith?

wakka12

https://twitter.com/IrishTimes/status/1360272720747986953

Does this not conflict with patient confidentiality? Or is dentistry somehow not covered the same way?
This is going way over the line if police resources are spent hunting random holiday goers. Good grief.

latency89

wakka12 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/IrishTimes/status/1360272720747986953

Does this not conflict with patient confidentiality? Or is dentistry somehow not covered the same way?
This is going way over the line if police resources are spent hunting random holiday goers. Good grief.

Easy solution to that one

€5000 payment per person for entry to Ireland, no exceptions and payable at the gate.

Silentcorner

RobitTV wrote: »

I like that MP, he seems to be the only voice of reason over there at the moment.

Note the look on the "journalists" face at the end...if ever a perplexed look personified an industry!!!

The penny will drop amongst media types, how they have been peddling covid porn to the masses and the effects of that hysteria, they'll deny their participation in the hysteria of course...and jump on the next crisis bandwagon, climate, or some other American politician, but the industry will not be able to depend on Government spending forever, what will happen when they realise that underneath all their unbalanced media coverage, the social media amplification of that hysteria there is a growing undercurrent of anger amongst people which is getting more and more obvious!!!

I heard a saying years ago...if everyone is running toward the cliff the one running the opposite way looks like the crazy one!!!

Hector Savage

VonLuck wrote: »

Such a weak argument. Essentially you're saying that people die anyways, sure what does it matter if the figure increases.

I'm pretty sure that someone who is in the vulnerable category would prefer to live under restrictions for however many months if that means they'll survive the pandemic and continue to live a normal life for years afterwards. And the very few who don't feel that way, sure they're going to break the restrictions anyways.

I have heard many old people that would rather take their chances rather then live like prisoners in nursing homes not allowed to see their families..

Boggles

wakka12 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/IrishTimes/status/1360272720747986953

Does this not conflict with patient confidentiality? Or is dentistry somehow not covered the same way?
This is going way over the line if police resources are spent hunting random holiday goers. Good grief.

No, I doubt if you make a fraudulent appointment and not show up in order to get around restrictions you will be classified as a patient.

All you are doing there is fúcking around with some poor innocent persons business.

CruelSummer

https://www.independent.ie/news/taoiseach-now-unlikely-to-travel-to-washington-as-white-house-examines-virtual-st-patricks-day-meeting-40085139.html

Now we're forgoing one of the best economic and political opportunities Ireland gets on an annual basis. Thanks to the Left (Sinn Féin supporters) and others campaign for Martin not to 'travel' - the new dirty word.

VonLuck

Hector Savage wrote: »

I have heard many old people that would rather take their chances rather then live like prisoners in nursing homes not allowed to see their families..

So if one nursing home resident wants to take the chance and all others don't, should that person be allowed to see their family and put all the other residents at risk?

Hellrazer

CruelSummer wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/news/taoiseach-now-unlikely-to-travel-to-washington-as-white-house-examines-virtual-st-patricks-day-meeting-40085139.html

Now we're forgoing one of the best economic and political opportunities Ireland gets on an annual basis. Thanks to the Left (Sinn Féin supporters) and others campaign for Martin not to 'travel' - the new dirty word.

Theyre all "Left" in this Dail so that's a bit unfair.

But Mehole wont be happy - He wont be Taoiseach this time next year and hes lost his chance at the big stage.

He`ll probably punish us even more now -- Lockdowns till 2025!!!

FWIW - I think he should have went to build up those economic and political opportunities.

walus

VonLuck wrote: »

So if one nursing home resident wants to take the chance and all others don't, should that person be allowed to see their family and put all the other residents at risk?

No need for such a dilemma. The vaccinations in nursing homes are almost complete. They can now have a massive party to celebrate that, while we are locking down so Ireland can score high at the covid olympics. Remember, under 100 cases per day, so behave yourselves children...

Arghus

CruelSummer wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/news/taoiseach-now-unlikely-to-travel-to-washington-as-white-house-examines-virtual-st-patricks-day-meeting-40085139.html

Now we're forgoing one of the best economic and political opportunities Ireland gets on an annual basis. Thanks to the Left (Sinn Féin supporters) and others campaign for Martin not to 'travel' - the new dirty word.

If it was announced that he was going there'd be people here complaining about that too. Guaranteed.

MOH

Wow. the government propaganda office is in full swing today.

Here's a detailed breakdown for at least third time this week on how many scummy seflish Irish narcissists have been away on holidays.

Meanwhile, the vaccination numbers on the data hub haven't been updated since Tuesday. :rolleyes:

On a side note, I'm getting worried about Tony. He hasn't ranted about how alcohol is spreading the virus for at least a week. I hope he's OK. It's hardly that he's not bothered now we've got a different sideshow to distract everyone and shift the blame.

Windmill100000

Arghus wrote: »

If it was announced that he was going there'd be people here complaining about that too. Guaranteed.

Absolutely. I think it's a perfect case of where you are damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Somehow I think Biden will understand.

CruelSummer

Hellrazer wrote: »

Theyre all "Left" in this Dail so that's a bit unfair.

But Mehole wont be happy - He wont be Taoiseach this time next year and hes lost his chance at the big stage.

He`ll probably punish us even more now -- Lockdowns till 2025!!!

FWIW - I think he should have went to build up those economic and political opportunities.

Sinn Fein are the main opposition party, they’re behaving disgracefully in my opinion across many areas in which I’ve listened to what their elected officials have to say. They seem to be aiming for the Trump model of alternative facts.

The Government are not much better and ultimately must be hedging their bets that they won’t have to answer to the electorate regarding the consequences of their actions during Covid-19. Ultimately the pandemic has shown up the best and worst in people.
The Government, NPHET and the media need to be held accountable for the emotional abuse they’ve inflicted on people for the last 12 months. However I’m beginning to despair that the Irish public are just not that intelligent and don’t care as long as they get their PUP and other unsustainable measures.

CruelSummer

Windmill100000 wrote: »

Absolutely. I think it's a perfect case of where you are damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Somehow I think Biden will understand.

Sure, do you think businesses and employees will also understand if they lose their jobs and investment goes elsewhere instead of Ireland?

Dutchboy352

Would going to the airport to emigrate count as non essential? Asking for a friend...

FintanMcluskey

Arghus wrote: »

If it was announced that he was going there'd be people here complaining about that too. Guaranteed.

And sure as the sun sets every evening you would support him at all costs if the trip included taking a month sabbatical in Miami with his boss Tony Holohan

I’m going to type up an email this evening to all of the TDs and I might post the body of the mail on here so people can use it if they want.

Might take a while to get the words out in the best way.

We should also look at getting a petition going. Easy to sign a petition and will help our cause if we get signatures.