Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VIII *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

copeyhagen

cheezums wrote: »

what does boiling kittens in a saucepan mean?

dinner

Penfailed

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

But this isn’t what you were saying up to now Argus?

You accused people of wanting normality as being a mess?

Now you weren’t the only one, but longing for normality became a crime for many posters

That is complete and utter nonsense. There's a massive difference between wanting normality right now and wanting normality as soon as possible.

Penfailed

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Yeah . Last year’s metrics

Edit: I’m not asking to let it rip

Oh, okay. Not actual quantifiable metrics then. You could call it an educated guess I suppose.

I don't think (and I'm willing to be corrected) I've ever accused you of letting it rip. If I have, I apologise. I know you're an advocate of open everything with measures in place. That's a fair enough stance to take. I actually agree with that stance. It's the timing that we differ on.

Penfailed

copeyhagen wrote: »

dinner

Hahaha!

Arghus

copeyhagen wrote: »

thousands dead.. im sorry, but more or less 3k 82 year olds in nursing homes have died.

yes its tragic, but there arent healthy people dropping dead in the streets...

we didnt protect the vulnerable, which is awful, but here we are, a year later, its no more dangerous to the 99% of us now than it was then, despite what RTE news and their 58 new varients might tell you.

Yes. I don't dispute that it doesn't effect the vast majority of people in a serious way.

When you say we failed to protect the vulnerable that implies that there's simply nothing we can do from here to protect all of the remaining vulnerable

But there literally thousands of people - tens of thousands - who are still vulnerable to serious illness or death and if you just open up thousands of those will be effected. And hospitals will be full and ICU'S will be full. Do you think we should we should give up and not continue to take measures to protect these people and protect the health service?

That's why we continue to do it, lives are still at risk, many lives. Thousands, yes, we've already seen it can kill many many people, even if otherwise healthy people aren't dropping dead on the street. It doesn't have to be that much of an existential risk to absolutely everybody to not be worth the effort to protect those who are at risk. And the fact remains that are a lot of people at risk, whatever way you look at it.

The job isn't done or not worth the effort at just 3k. We don't just stop it there, it's an ongoing effort.

And that's why I think getting all those most vulnerable to it vaccinated from the virus is a prerequisite to beginning to get back to normal.

Arghus

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

But you still haven’t quantified an acceptable level of hospital cases and deaths.

Is it 0?

If it’s not, wouldn’t this highly transmissible disease become rampant in a short amount of time?

Edit: I’m not asking to let it rip

No it isn't zero.

I am aware that even aside from Covid people do die. I am aware that I may not live forever either.

I don't think it's a simple figure you can put your hat on like 10 a day or 7 a day.

It’s more a situational thing, like, you'd want a situation where normal things can happen again in a hospital like elective procedures, ICU's with available beds, cancer surgeries and screenings and there isn't a risk of outbreaks or services becoming overwhelmed by just Covid Patients.

The idea of widespread vaccination is that you can avoid that - right now we can't avoid that as an inevitable price for opening up, attempted normality, if you will. I want to return to a normality where that isn't a possibility - it simply isn't normality otherwise.

I think Fintan you're slightly missing the point of what I'm trying to say.

FintanMcluskey

Arghus wrote: »

Yes. I don't dispute that it doesn't effect the vast majority of people in a serious way.

When you say we failed to protect the vulnerable that implies that there's simply nothing we can do from here to protect all of the remaining vulnerable

But there literally thousands of people - tens of thousands - who are still vulnerable to serious illness or death and if you just open up thousands of those will be effected. And hospitals will be full and ICU'S will be full. Do you think we should we should give up and not continue to take measures to protect these people and protect the health service?

That's why we continue to do it, lives are still at risk, many lives. Thousands, yes, we've already seen it can kill many many people, even if otherwise healthy people aren't dropping dead on the street. It doesn't have to be that much of an existential risk to absolutely everybody to not be worth the effort to protect those who are at risk. And the fact remains that are a lot of people at risk, whatever way you look at it.

The job isn't done or not worth the effort at just 3k. We don't just stop it there, it's an ongoing effort.

And that's why I think getting all those most vulnerable to it vaccinated from the virus is a prerequisite to beginning to get back to normal.

Who suggested to open up?

Arghus

Fintan, I'm done for tonight.

FintanMcluskey

Arghus wrote: »

No it isn't zero.

I am aware that even aside from Covid people do die. I am aware that I may not live forever either.

I don't think it's a simple figure you can put your hat on like 10 a day or 7 a day.

It’s more a situational thing, like, you'd want a situation where normal things can happen again in a hospital like elective procedures, ICU's with available beds, cancer surgeries and screenings and there isn't a risk of outbreaks or services becoming overwhelmed by just Covid Patients.

The idea of widespread vaccination is that you can avoid that - right now we can't avoid that as an inevitable price for opening up, attempted normality, if you will. I want to return to a normality where that isn't a possibility - it simply isn't normality otherwise.

I think Fintan you're slightly missing the point of what I'm trying to say.

Perhaps I am missing the point.

But I am trying to quantify it

Even those situational issue needs to put a number on acceptable case levels

What is it ?

FintanMcluskey

Arghus wrote: »

Fintan, I'm done for tonight.

That’s fine Argus.

You did revert once again to the most remedial argument available

Arghus

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

That’s fine Argus.

You did revert once again to the most remedial argument available

Is there any need for that in fairness

I must have wrote close to a thousand words there, I feel like I did - there's more to what I said than just that half a sentence.

JRant

Looking at the snail's pace the vaccines are coming in and the governments "plan", we might have the over 80's done before the end of March. Delays to all the vaccines now and more than likely this will continue with new ones as they become available means there's a very good chance we won't be lifting any restrictions for a long number of months.

Malcomex

JRant wrote: »

Looking at the snail's pace the vaccines are coming in and the governments "plan", we might have the over 80's done before the end of March. Delays to all the vaccines now and more than likely this will continue with new ones as they become available means there's a very good chance we won't be lifting any restrictions for a long number of months.

Was bound to be delays

Everybody wants them at the same time

copeyhagen

copeyhagen wrote: »

thousands dead.. im sorry, but more or less 3k 82 year olds in nursing homes have died.

yes its tragic, but there arent healthy people dropping dead in the streets...

we didnt protect the vulnerable, which is awful, but here we are, a year later, its no more dangerous to the 99% of us now than it was then, despite what RTE news and their 58 new varients might tell you.

You know what median means?

JRant

Malcomex wrote: »

Was bound to be delays

Everybody wants them at the same time

Absolutely, they'll all have delays as they come online. This scale of production ramp up has never been done before in the pharma industry.

Donnelly needs to stop spouting nonsense about getting the entire country vaccinated by September. That's just not going to happen.

Boggles

Only 3000+ people have died we don't need restrictions.

weldoninhio

Arghus wrote: »

Ah, you see this is what you do when you are presented with inarguble facts, you move the goalposts, or you don't reply - that can happen too.

Have your arguments not evolved in all this time?

You are 100% incorrect and passing off your incorrect information as “inarguable (sic) facts”. The third surge began before restrictions were lifted in December. This is an unarguable fact, as per the HSPC.

Penfailed

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Ah yes, Sir Ivan Yates was a voice of reason.

I really enjoyed his show before he mysteriously disappeared

https://www.thesun.ie/tvandshowbiz/6480412/ivan-yates-walked-virgin-media-tonight-show-money/amp/

Graham

weldoninhio wrote: »

The third surge began before restrictions were lifted in December. This is an unarguable fact, as per the HSPC.

Goes to show the restrictions in early December weren't enough.

Good job they've been increased now.

weldoninhio

weldoninhio wrote: »

You are 100% incorrect and passing off your incorrect information as “inarguable (sic) facts”. The third surge began before restrictions were lifted in December. This is an unarguable fact, as per the HSPC.

An arbitrary date selected for measuring purposes is not start. Cases were still falling on the 22nd of November.

weldoninhio

[Deleted User] wrote: »

An arbitrary date selected for measuring purposes is not start. Cases were still falling on the 22nd of November.

So follow the experts, except when you don’t agree with them? Got it.

weldoninhio

Graham wrote: »

Goes to show the restrictions in early December weren't enough.

Good job they've been increased now.

Surge began in November when we were in Level 5, exact same as we are now. Try again.

Graham

weldoninhio wrote: »

Surge began in November when we were in Level 5, exact same as we are now. Try again.

From November 11th

We’re halfway into Lockdown 2.0 and all the signs suggest that we’re crushing the Covid-19 curve again. Since moving into level 5 restriction three weeks ago, the national infection rate has almost halved from over 300 cases per 100,000 population to 160 cases per 100,000 population this week

Then we relaxed over Christmas.

Now we're paying for it.

retro:electro

Do ye ever sleep in here?

FintanMcluskey

retro:electro wrote: »

Do ye ever sleep in here?

It probably seems like that.

Realistically anyone that a hobby or social life now has to sit in front of a TV for the next few months, or the spare time is spent on here.

Can’t even go swimming oddly, most hobbies will break public health guidelines

weldoninhio

weldoninhio wrote: »

So follow the experts, except when you don’t agree with them? Got it.

Case continued to fall for nearly 3 weeks after the “start of wave 3”. That is a fact. Your wilful misrepresentation of an arbitrary date on a chart, selected more to represent where they judged wave 2 finished rather than anything else is straightforward lies. Ten days after lifting the restrictions at the start of December is when cases started to increase. No one says otherwise

weldoninhio

Graham wrote: »

From November 11th



Then we relaxed over Christmas.

Now we're paying for it.

I’ve linked it earlier in this thread. HPSC have confirmed that the current surge began on 22 November 2020. BEFORE Level 5 restrictions were eased for Xmas.

weldoninhio

weldoninhio wrote: »

I’ve linked it earlier in this thread. HPSC have confirmed that the current surge began on 22 November 2020. BEFORE Level 5 restrictions were eased for Xmas.

Anyone can read a chart so no need to continue lying

weldoninhio

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Anyone can read a chart so no need to continue lying

“Dashed red arrows indicate the timeline of the first, second and third waves of COVID-19 infection in Ireland (Second wave of infection commenced in week 32; week beginning 02/08/2020 and the third wave commenced in week 48 (22/11/2020)).”

There’s text rather than a chart. Straight from the HSPCs report. No alterations. You’ll retract your scurrilous accusation that I’ve lied I presume??

weldoninhio

weldoninhio wrote: »

“Dashed red arrows indicate the timeline of the first, second and third waves of COVID-19 infection in Ireland (Second wave of infection commenced in week 32; week beginning 02/08/2020 and the third wave commenced in week 48 (22/11/2020)).”

There’s text rather than a chart. Straight from the HSPCs report. No alterations. You’ll retract your scurrilous accusation that I’ve lied I presume??

Your misinterpretation of an arbitrary date on a report was pointed out to you a number of days ago, so I can only conclude its deliberate. Again, cases continued falling for another 3 weeks