Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VIII *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

Lundstram

Graham wrote: »

Make your mind up.

You've spent the last few week blathering on about financial suffering and now you're complaining about financial supports.

I'm not sure you know what you want, you're just stomping your feet about everything now.

Since you don't bother explaining anything. I'll not waste my time doing so.

"blathering" :pac:

Lundstram

Boggles wrote: »

I'm alright Jack.

I don't think you understand that phrase.

Ginger n Lemon

Great, great news from Italy.

Netherlands to follow soon I'd guess.

Graham

Lundstram wrote: »

Since you don't bother explaining anything. I'll not waste my time doing so.

"blathering" :pac:

I guess more doublespeak was to be expected.

I await whitty retort with the usual accompanying thanks....

Arghus

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Arghus care to answer?

Or you are on selective posting lately?

I've talked about this so many times.

I explained it again yesterday: you can go back and look. If you were really genuinely interested in the question you'd have found what I had to say about it, but instead you sniff out where there's a potential for ambiguity and further splitting of hairs

I don't really see the point of trying to explain myself again, when you know and I know, that really you're hoping to get purposely pedanticly caught up and to control the conversation that way. It's not like you actually want to debate these things.

Boggles

Lundstram wrote: »

There's no free €350 to sit on your arse

Lundstram wrote: »

I still have two jobs and we were never as busy. We can work any amount of hours we want these days. I'm saving a silly amount of money each week now.

Lundstram wrote: »

I don't think you understand that phrase.

I do.

You have a delightful disposition.

An online persona predominately I imagine.

FintanMcluskey

Boggles wrote: »

Vague.

Show your numbers, maybe dispense with the arbitrary nonsensical cut off points.

Deaths in Ireland among the over-65s were the third highest in Europe relative to population. The rate to early October in Ireland was 2,359 deaths per million. Only Belgium and England/Wales had higher rates of deaths

We use the above.

Only in Belgium, England and Wales was a citizen over 65 more at risk from Covid than one in Ireland.

Or perhaps you have a spin to put on those facts

Kunta Kinte

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Arghus care to answer?

Or you are on selective posting lately?

Of all the cohort of anti restrictions posters on here the irony of you in particular accusing others of selective posting and of refusing to answer questions without engaging in deflection tactics is breathtaking. To quote your regular phrase I`m "speechless" at your complete lack of self awareness.

Ginger n Lemon

Arghus wrote: »

I've talked about this so many times.

I explained it again yesterday: you can go back and look. If you were really genuinely interested in the question you'd have found what I had to say about it, but instead you sniff out where there's a potential for ambiguity and further splitting of hairs

I don't really see the point of trying to explain myself again, when you know and I know, that really you're hoping to get purposely pedanticly caught up and to control the conversation that way. It's not like you actually want to debate these things.

You didnt answer a direct question yesterday even though asked 3 times of are all of covid deaths in Ireland from covid?

You are avoiding my question this morning.

Arghus its very clear and evident. And disappointing.

Lundstram

Boggles wrote: »

I do.

You have a delightful disposition.

An online persona predominately I imagine.

Italians are getting nowhere near €350 pw. They don't want restrictions.

My situation is the complete opposite. I don't want restrictions.

Yeah, you used the "I'm alright, Jack" thing wrong.

Embarrassed for you.

FintanMcluskey

hynesie08 wrote: »

Italy had over 70000 deaths of people in that age range, even if every Irish death was over 65, those numbers don't add up.....

No they do add up.

And that’s my point, many do not understand how it could be true that Italy protect its vulnerable better than Ireland last year.

Many don’t understand why a citizen 65 was safer in Italy than Ireland.

I now think people believe if NPHET were in charge in Italy only 3000 would have died up to now

Penfailed

valarmorghulis wrote: »

hi,considering leaving dublin permanently moving home for 2021 west via public transport ,sending my stuff with movers ,could the cops board a bus at a checkpoint,is that a legit reason to avoid a fine ,costing me €50 very day I unnecessarily stay in dublin

If you are moving home, that's essential travel.

Arghus

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

You didnt answer a direct question yesterday even though asked 3 times of are all of covid deaths in Ireland from covid?

You are avoiding my question this morning.

Arghus its very clear and evident. And disappointing.

Nope.

Once again, go back over the posts from yesterday. I never denied once anywhere about reliability of Covid death figures - my opponent did.

Rather than indicating my own supposed selective posting style, it seems to me that it indicates your selective understanding style.

I'm okay with you being dissapointed. You are purposely obtuse.

FintanMcluskey

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Honestly I'm fairly torn on Christmas and I've flip flopped a fair bit in my stance on it. I can see the logic in keeping everything shut down, but I can also see the logic in letting shops get some business in and allowing people to see their families at that time of year.

Exactly Jimbob.

So we need to start accounting for human behaviour in our approach to living with this long term.

And perhaps we can avoid in future what was seen immediately after Christmas, and I don’t mean not reopening in the 1st place

Penfailed

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

I’m not assuming, many posters refuse to criticise the approach of NPHET last Summer and supported the approach mitigated at the time.

I did.

FintanMcluskey

Penfailed wrote: »

If you are moving home, that's essential travel.

The poster is “considering” moving home, not already in the process.

Is it essential to consider moving now?

Be careful giving out advice that may be unlawful

Graham

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

No they do add up.

And that’s my point, many do not understand how it could be true that Italy protect its vulnerable better than Ireland last year

Returning to reality for a minute:

Deaths per million

1,449 - Italy
640 - Ireland

Like I said, pick another poster-boy.

FintanMcluskey

Graham wrote: »

Returning to reality for a minute:

Deaths per million

1,449 - Italy
640 - Ireland

Like I said, pick another poster-boy.

No Graham try to understand why Italy protected its vulnerable better than Ireland.

Italy have 15,000,000 vulnerable citizens.

Covid is such a paradox, Ireland’s poor healthcare service has meant we have very few citizens over 65 compared to other countries.

That means less citizens vulnerable to Covid. In fact Ireland has Europe’s youngest population.

Still had the longest lockdown though

Penfailed

Lundstram wrote: »

You quoted a number without explaining that number.

But I'm sure the fact they're the oldest population in Europe didn't make any difference.

Correct me if I'm wrong...are you saying that because they are elderly, it doesn't count or doesn't really matter? That's how it reads. Like I said, I'm open to correction.

Penfailed

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Why didnt you say so earlier? it explains a lot of things.

You conveniently skipped the bit that says he's getting less than the PUP some weeks. What does that explain?

FintanMcluskey

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

I agree. Most people more in favour with restrictions would probably agree as we'll I'd imagine. I just don't think now is the time considering what our numbers are like. If we end up in a situation like last summer where our numbers are low I would hope we learned our lessons from last year and are less hesitant to open up. Ideally I'd like to see a situation where restrictions can be relaxed or tightened much quicker based directly on the numbers instead of waiting until an arbitrary date set by government to take any action.

Leo has already said this week the relaxation of mitigation measures will be long and slow like last year. So we can already predict the outcome will be the same as last year.

The restrictions are date set not numbers based and I do think all criticism of the approach is justified for that reason.

The restrictions could be justified for early January, but I do think the restrictions also caused the restrictions and we have created a weird loop that’s impossible to break

Arghus

Penfailed wrote: »

You conveniently skipped the bit that says he's getting less than the PUP some weeks. What does that explain?

That was the single sentence that was siezed upon and focused on without context - and then all the rest of it gets conveniently ignored.

Graham

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

No Graham try to understand why Italy protected its vulnerable better than Ireland.

I genuinely have no idea what point you're trying to make.

Are you saying the additional 800+ deaths per million somehow don't matter.

They weren't vulnerable so they deserved to die?

Those deaths don't count?

What is it exactly that make more than double the number of deaths per million something we should aspire to?

FintanMcluskey

Graham wrote: »

I genuinely have no idea what point you're trying to make.

Are you saying the additional 800+ deaths per million somehow don't matter.

They weren't vulnerable so they deserved to die?

Those deaths don't count?

What is it exactly that make more than double the number of deaths per million something we should aspire to?

I’ve explained it a few different ways Graham.

A Italian over 65 was less likely to die of Covid than an Irish person over 65.

It’s risk related to demographics.

You are still proving my point about what the media have done to exploit a lack of understanding

Graham

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

I’ve explained it a few different ways Graham.

A Italian over 65 was less likely to die of Covid than an Irish person over 65.

Still not answering the question.

Do the additional 800 deaths per million. More than double our rate.

Do they not count.

It's not a complicated question.

A simple yes or no will suffice. Give it a go. You know you can do it.

Boggles

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

A Italian over 65 was less likely to die of Covid than an Irish person over 65.

The study you referenced compared over 60s in Italy with over 65's in Ireland.

Dilutes it considerably.

Also it's based on deaths at different time periods.

I would suggest though if Italy have almost 2 and half times our death rate, then no they haven't protected people better, vulnerable or otherwise.

FintanMcluskey

Graham wrote: »

Still not answering the question.

Do the additional 800 deaths per million. More than double our rate.

Do they not count.

It's not a complicated question.

A simple yes or no will suffice. Give it a go. You know you can do it.

It is a complicated question Graham, because thats a statistic based on a mix of unaffected demographics that is always favourable to Ireland as it has the highest number of citizens under the age of 15 in Europe.

The relevant demographic is where the over 90% of deaths are occurring.

So there is not a yes or no answer to a question you don’t actually understand yourself

robfowler78

I’ve seen people post that excess deaths are the same as pervious years and then I’ve seen people post that thousands of excess deaths have occurred. Were would be the best place to get that type of information now that we have a full years data.

I have to admit I’ve been guilty of flip flopping and listening to people like Ivor Cummins and then listening to people like Sam Mcconkey and have to say they are all as bad as each other for biased information or maybe not biased but contradictory so I’d like to find somewhere like the CSO or something that gives a more official number if you know what I mean .

Kunta Kinte

Arghus wrote: »

That was the single sentence that was siezed upon and focused on without context - and then all the rest of it gets conveniently ignored.

The usual tactic from G&L. Par for the course from him really.

Graham

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

It is a complicated question Graham

It's not complicated at all.

Are 1449 deaths per million somehow better than 640?


Would you prefer we had more than double the number of deaths even if it meant the additional deaths were only 'non-vulnerable'.

Come on, yes or no.

Stop fluffing around it.