Ireland is a pretend football country

chopperbyrne

Wonder will the FAI get paid for it anyway.

fryup

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Looks likely our games in Dublin for the Euros will be pulled as we wont be able to have any kind of crowd.

is it even going ahead?

TheRef

Funny that any talk of soccer in Ireland always revolves around the struggles of the LOI and the scoundrels who dare support an English team.

How about the complete lack of soccer facilities for kids. I run a soccer team (outside Dublin) and for 10 years we have been looking for a field to call our own. We have short term lease of land and use council pitches but as we don't own them, we can't apply for any grant. We can't buy the land unless we buy it for market (i.e. residential) rates. The council have told us that the priority is to develop housing and they can't get involved in helping community groups source land.
We have also been told that the community centers that they own have to be rented out at, or above, local market rates as the council can't be seen to be damaging local business.
The only successful clubs are those that acquired land 25+ years ago or have significant benefactors. No soccer club has a chance of developing with the lack of government interest or investment.

BanditLuke

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Looks likely our games in Dublin for the Euros will be pulled as we wont be able to have any kind of crowd.

https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/international-soccer/writing-on-wall-for-dublin-euros-games-as-lack-of-crowd-guarantee-narrows-uefa-options-40283214.html

I'm not bothered, we didn't qualify and there wont even be foreign fans here to add some colour so what's the point in having them here really?

Ridiculous it's going ahead at all just like the Olympics. If they insist on it happening just hold it in England alone as they are absolutely miles ahead of Europe's frankly pathetic vaccination efforts.

breezy1985

TheRef wrote: »

Funny that any talk of soccer in Ireland always revolves around the struggles of the LOI and the scoundrels who dare support an English team.

How about the complete lack of soccer facilities for kids. I run a soccer team (outside Dublin) and for 10 years we have been looking for a field to call our own. We have short term lease of land and use council pitches but as we don't own them, we can't apply for any grant. We can't buy the land unless we buy it for market (i.e. residential) rates. The council have told us that the priority is to develop housing and they can't get involved in helping community groups source land.
We have also been told that the community centers that they own have to be rented out at, or above, local market rates as the council can't be seen to be damaging local business.
The only successful clubs are those that acquired land 25+ years ago or have significant benefactors. No soccer club has a chance of developing with the lack of government interest or investment.

My argument would be that people could do both. Following a top league so you can see top quality football doesn't mean you can't also pop down to the local LOI team on a Friday night. It's the looking down on the LOI that is the problem.

A typical comment from a PL fan in Limerick particularly Liverpool and United fans back in the day way "why would go watch that shower (Limerick) they're useless they'll never win anything"

An improved LOI would at least help with your situation as long as the FAI wasn't run by a crook. A bit more interest in Irish soccer would help get the political ball going like you have with the GAA and IRFU

TheRef

TheRef wrote: »

Funny that any talk of soccer in Ireland always revolves around the struggles of the LOI and the scoundrels who dare support an English team.

How about the complete lack of soccer facilities for kids. I run a soccer team (outside Dublin) and for 10 years we have been looking for a field to call our own. We have short term lease of land and use council pitches but as we don't own them, we can't apply for any grant. We can't buy the land unless we buy it for market (i.e. residential) rates. The council have told us that the priority is to develop housing and they can't get involved in helping community groups source land.
We have also been told that the community centers that they own have to be rented out at, or above, local market rates as the council can't be seen to be damaging local business.
The only successful clubs are those that acquired land 25+ years ago or have significant benefactors. No soccer club has a chance of developing with the lack of government interest or investment.

It's all related to endemic FAI mismanagement of assets though. The FAI could have (and still should) invest in local pitches instead of the waste on Delaney's wages and expenses. Afaik, the GAA own their pitches centrally, not at each individual club or county level. Whereas the FAI have been happy for private bodies to own pitches (which inevitably leads to conflicts down the line when the owner wants to use the land for alternative uses). Not sure who owns the various junior football pitches but the FAI seem way more disorganised on land ownership than either the IRFU or GAA. There's loads of stories of pitches being sold from clubs without the clubs having any recourse, Shamrock Rovers losing Glenmalure Park, Limerick lost the Market's Field for 30 or so years etc.

chopperbyrne

Everything comes back to the FAI being useless.

This is their domestic football page: https://www.fai.ie/domestic

Latest news story is from 21st of March saying the league is ready for kick-off.

Grassroots clubs not having facilities, and the FAI being no help when trying to secure them.

Not promoting the LoI for at least the last thirty years, probably more.

Gross, (possibly criminal) mismanagement of finances for decades.

Terrible decisions over the Aviva stadium, especially the premium tickets fiasco, that now has them in so much debt, they can't do anything.

All comes back to the FAI.

Fr Tod Umptious

Deleted User wrote: »

It's all related to endemic FAI mismanagement of assets though. The FAI could have (and still should) invest in local pitches instead of the waste on Delaney's wages and expenses. Afaik, the GAA own their pitches centrally, not at each individual club or county level. Whereas the FAI have been happy for private bodies to own pitches (which inevitably leads to conflicts down the line when the owner wants to use the land for alternative uses). Not sure who owns the various junior football pitches but the FAI seem way more disorganised on land ownership than either the IRFU or GAA. There's loads of stories of pitches being sold from clubs without the clubs having any recourse, Shamrock Rovers losing Glenmalure Park, Limerick lost the Market's Field for 30 or so years etc.

GAA clubs own their own grounds.
For their upkeep and improvement they can get loans and grants from the GAA or from government, like the sports capital grant, which GAA clubs and any sports clubs around the country can apply for and receive.
They also do their own local funding.

Soccer clubs can't get the same level of funding from the FAI as GAA clubs can get from the GAA because the FAI don't have the money.
And they can't get the same local funding as the GAA because most soccer fans are not interested in their local club.

As I said before, most soccer fans in this country probably contribute more to their local GAA club than they do to their local soccer club.

Omackeral

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

As I said before, most soccer fans in this country probably contribute more to their local GAA club than they do to their local soccer club.

But we’re the greatest fans in the world?!

partyguinness

I remember when our local club set up 30 years ago, the club could not get any grants or lottery money.

To get any sort of funding a club had to own its own facilities which or course they could not afford to buy without a loan/grant in the first place.

The local GAA club seemed to have unlimited access to funding as they owned the facilities. The local GAA pitch had been gifted free of charge to the club decades previous by a local "pillar of the community" type and of renamed in his honour.

Fr Tod Umptious

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

GAA clubs own their own grounds.
For their upkeep and improvement they can get loans and grants from the GAA or from government, like the sports capital grant, which GAA clubs and any sports clubs around the country can apply for and receive.
They also do their own local funding.

Soccer clubs can't get the same level of funding from the FAI as GAA clubs can get from the GAA because the FAI don't have the money.
And they can't get the same local funding as the GAA because most soccer fans are not interested in their local club.

As I said before, most soccer fans in this country probably contribute more to their local GAA club than they do to their local soccer club.

I stand corrected on the club ownership thing, still hard to imagine a scenario where Limerick GAA or Dublin GAA could sell either the Gaelic Grounds or Croke Park whereas the owners of the Market's Field or Glenmalure Park could (and did, despite fan protests).

partyguinness

Deleted User wrote: »

I stand corrected on the club ownership thing, still hard to imagine a scenario where Limerick GAA or Dublin GAA could sell either the Gaelic Grounds or Croke Park whereas the owners of the Market's Field or Glenmalure Park could (and did, despite fan protests).

I wonder how many LOI clubs actually own their own grounds. I know Cork City do not own Turner's Cross. It is leased from the Munster Senior League.


Flower Lodge (now Pairc ui Rinn) was home to Cork City for a few seasons but the GAA outbid them when it went up for sale (all sorts of funny business alleged). Sadly I am old enough to have watched Cork City play at Flower Lodge.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

partyguinness wrote: »

I remember when our local club set up 30 years ago, the club could not get any grants or lottery money.

To get any sort of funding a club had to own its own facilities which or course they could not afford to buy without a loan/grant in the first place.

The local GAA club seemed to have unlimited access to funding as they owned the facilities. The local GAA pitch had been gifted free of charge to the club decades previous by a local "pillar of the community" type and of renamed in his honour.

I think this also applies to some GAA clubs that lease their facilities. They can't get government grants.

partyguinness

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

I think this also applies to some GAA clubs that lease their facilities. They can't get government grants.

I suppose they have access to central grants from the GAA.

cms88

partyguinness wrote: »

I wonder how many LOI clubs actually own their own grounds. I know Cork City do not own Turner's Cross. It is leased from the Munster Senior League.


Flower Lodge (now Pairc ui Rinn) was home to Cork City for a few seasons but the GAA outbid them when it went up for sale (all sorts of funny business alleged). Sadly I am old enough to have watched Cork City play at Flower Lodge.

That' a good question. Galway Utd don't own Eamonn Deacy Park the Galway FA do. Shamrock Rovers don't own Tallaght Stadium. I don;t think Waterfrod own the RSC either

breezy1985

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I stand corrected on the club ownership thing, still hard to imagine a scenario where Limerick GAA or Dublin GAA could sell either the Gaelic Grounds or Croke Park whereas the owners of the Market's Field or Glenmalure Park could (and did, despite fan protests).

The Markets Field was a greyhound stadium owned by the greyhound board and even before it closed Pat Grace and his disgraceful run in charge had already dragged Limerick around to different sites around the edge of town. It was bought for Limerick recently and I think owned by a trust

Also im not sure it is impossible to get grants if you don't own your ground. Pretty sure Ballynanty Rovers got money to buy their ground

bullpost

cms88 wrote: »

That' a good question. Galway Utd don't own Eamonn Deacy Park the Galway FA do. Shamrock Rovers don't own Tallaght Stadium. I don;t think Waterfrod own the RSC either

Waterford were always tenants , including RSC.

Snickers Man

Here's a trivia question, the answer to which reveals some uncomfortable truths about the state of Irish football at the moment.

On the occasion of the Greatest Day in Irish Footballing History (June 12th 1988, Stuttgart, Ireland's first match at the final stages of a major international tournament. Result: R o Ireland 1 England 0), which team's players had the greater number of League Championship medals?

And by league Championship I mean what was called the First Division in those days but is called the Premiership today.

The answer is: Ireland's, and by a country mile.

Of the 13 players each side used that day (including playing subs) each had four players who, AT THAT TIME, had English league championship medals.
England had:
Peter Shilton, Notts Forest 1978
Gary Stevens, Everton, 1985, 1987
John Barnes, Liverpool 1988
Peter Beardsley, Liverpool 1988

Ireland had
Kevin Sheedy, Everton 1985, 1987
John Aldridge, Liverpool 1988
Ray Houghton, Liverpool 1988
Ronnie Whelan, Liverpool 1982, 1983, 1984, 1986, 1988

Nine English championship medals as opposed to five. Granted, some of the England team went on to win more titles subsequently but at the time the Irish team had the greater haul and also had the top scorer in the First Division that year. (Aldridge) Mind you, he hadn't yet scored for Ireland after 15 games and he wouldn't get off the mark until he had played another five.

And of course if you count the medals amassed by the three Celtic players on the Irish team you could add another six, albeit Scottish, League championship medals to the mix, one each from Mick McCarthy and Chris Morris and four from Packie Bonner. 15 league medals to five?? Three times as many!!

Think back: who were the last four Republic of Ireland internationals to win English Premiership medals? I'm thinking John O'Shea, Roy Keane, Dennis Irwin and then you'd probably have to go back to Damien Duff in 2006. Who was the last before that? Probably the Liverpool lads in the 1980s. Jeff Kenna played in the Blackburn team that won the title in 1995 but he joined late in the season (no transfer windows back then) and didn't play enough times to earn a medal.

Four medal winners on the one team in 1988; now you have to go back two decades to get as many.

The English league ain't for us any more.

breezy1985

"Ireland by a country mile" me ar$e. Both teams had 4 medal winners it's just Ronnie had more himself. I would call that a draw or a win on penalties at most

breezy1985

breezy1985 wrote: »

The Markets Field was a greyhound stadium owned by the greyhound board and even before it closed Pat Grace and his disgraceful run in charge had already dragged Limerick around to different sites around the edge of town. It was bought for Limerick recently and I think owned by a trust

Also im not sure it is impossible to get grants if you don't own your ground. Pretty sure Ballynanty Rovers got money to buy their ground

Market's field was originally owned by a private family afaik, was only sold to Bord na gCon in the 70's, iirc. My mother used to go cycle races there (showing my advanced age here). Eitherway, it highlights how poor the FAI have been at building their own stadia.

partyguinness

Snickers Man wrote: »

Here's a trivia question, the answer to which reveals some uncomfortable truths about the state of Irish football at the moment.

On the occasion of the Greatest Day in Irish Footballing History (June 12th 1988, Stuttgart, Ireland's first match at the final stages of a major international tournament. Result: R o Ireland 1 England 0), which team's players had the greater number of League Championship medals?

And by league Championship I mean what was called the First Division in those days but is called the Premiership today.

The answer is: Ireland's, and by a country mile.

Of the 13 players each side used that day (including playing subs) each had four players who, AT THAT TIME, had English league championship medals.
England had:
Peter Shilton, Notts Forest 1978
Gary Stevens, Everton, 1985, 1987
John Barnes, Liverpool 1988
Peter Beardsley, Liverpool 1988

Ireland had
Kevin Sheedy, Everton 1985, 1987
John Aldridge, Liverpool 1988
Ray Houghton, Liverpool 1988
Ronnie Whelan, Liverpool 1982, 1983, 1984, 1986, 1988

Nine English championship medals as opposed to five. Granted, some of the England team went on to win more titles subsequently but at the time the Irish team had the greater haul and also had the top scorer in the First Division that year. (Aldridge) Mind you, he hadn't yet scored for Ireland after 15 games and he wouldn't get off the mark until he had played another five.

And of course if you count the medals amassed by the three Celtic players on the Irish team you could add another six, albeit Scottish, League championship medals to the mix, one each from Mick McCarthy and Chris Morris and four from Packie Bonner. 15 league medals to five?? Three times as many!!

Think back: who were the last four Republic of Ireland internationals to win English Premiership medals? I'm thinking John O'Shea, Roy Keane, Dennis Irwin and then you'd probably have to go back to Damien Duff in 2006. Who was the last before that? Probably the Liverpool lads in the 1980s. Jeff Kenna played in the Blackburn team that won the title in 1995 but he joined late in the season (no transfer windows back then) and didn't play enough times to earn a medal.

Four medal winners on the one team in 1988; now you have to go back two decades to get as many.

The English league ain't for us any more.

Well it follows on from the fact England went to the 1986 WC with no Liverpool player in the squad...bearing in mind they had just won the double. That is quite incredible. Barnes and Beardsley followed afterwards.

And anyway...Whelan is the only Irish born player listed and even he played LOI.

BanditLuke

Snickers Man wrote: »

Here's a trivia question, the answer to which reveals some uncomfortable truths about the state of Irish football at the moment.

On the occasion of the Greatest Day in Irish Footballing History (June 12th 1988, Stuttgart, Ireland's first match at the final stages of a major international tournament. Result: R o Ireland 1 England 0), which team's players had the greater number of League Championship medals?

And by league Championship I mean what was called the First Division in those days but is called the Premiership today.

The answer is: Ireland's, and by a country mile.

Of the 13 players each side used that day (including playing subs) each had four players who, AT THAT TIME, had English league championship medals.
England had:
Peter Shilton, Notts Forest 1978
Gary Stevens, Everton, 1985, 1987
John Barnes, Liverpool 1988
Peter Beardsley, Liverpool 1988

Ireland had
Kevin Sheedy, Everton 1985, 1987
John Aldridge, Liverpool 1988
Ray Houghton, Liverpool 1988
Ronnie Whelan, Liverpool 1982, 1983, 1984, 1986, 1988

Nine English championship medals as opposed to five. Granted, some of the England team went on to win more titles subsequently but at the time the Irish team had the greater haul and also had the top scorer in the First Division that year. (Aldridge) Mind you, he hadn't yet scored for Ireland after 15 games and he wouldn't get off the mark until he had played another five.

And of course if you count the medals amassed by the three Celtic players on the Irish team you could add another six, albeit Scottish, League championship medals to the mix, one each from Mick McCarthy and Chris Morris and four from Packie Bonner. 15 league medals to five?? Three times as many!!

Think back: who were the last four Republic of Ireland internationals to win English Premiership medals? I'm thinking John O'Shea, Roy Keane, Dennis Irwin and then you'd probably have to go back to Damien Duff in 2006. Who was the last before that? Probably the Liverpool lads in the 1980s. Jeff Kenna played in the Blackburn team that won the title in 1995 but he joined late in the season (no transfer windows back then) and didn't play enough times to earn a medal.

Four medal winners on the one team in 1988; now you have to go back two decades to get as many.

The English league ain't for us any more.

Caoimhin Kellehar would be the last Irish player to win a league winners medal i'd have thought.

Iv'e always said with the players we had in 1988 and especially 1990 it was an underachievement not even reaching the semi's of either competition

Snickers Man

partyguinness wrote: »

Well it follows on from the fact England went to the 1986 WC with no Liverpool player in the squad...bearing in mind they had just won the double. That is quite incredible. Barnes and Beardsley followed afterwards.

And anyway...Whelan is the only Irish born player listed and even he played LOI.

That speaks volumes about the multinational make up of the Liverpool squad in those days, although back then multinational meant (for the most part) "from these islands".
This is the Wikipedia listing of the Liverpool squad from that season.

Goalkeepers
England Bob Bolder
Zimbabwe Bruce Grobbelaar
England Chris Pile

Defenders
England Gary Ablett
Republic of Ireland Jim Beglin
Scotland Gary Gillespie
Scotland Alan Hansen
Scotland Steve Nicol
England Alan Kennedy
Republic of Ireland Mark Lawrenson
Scotland John McGregor
England Phil Neal (Joined Bolton in December 1985)

Midfielders
Australia Craig Johnston
England Sammy Lee
Scotland Kevin MacDonald
England Steve McMahon
Denmark Jan Mølby
England Mark Seagraves
Scotland John Wark
Republic of Ireland Ronnie Whelan

Attackers
Wales Ian Rush
Scotland Kenny Dalglish
England Paul Walsh

23 players of whom 7 were Scottish, 3 Irish, 1 Welsh, 1 Zimbabwean, 1 Australian, 1 Dane and only 9 were English. Of those English one (Phil Neal) left before Christmas and several of the others were the sort of people that even those like myself who remember that era very well say..."Who?"
Mark Seagraves?
Bob Bolder?
Chris Pile?
Oh you mean "THE" Mark Seagraves!!!

Of the five remaining Alan Kennedy, Steve McMahon, Sammy Lee, Paul Walsh, Gary Ablett they were either very old (Kennedy) very young (McMahon, Ablett) or just not very good Walsh, Lee.
Beardsley and Barnes weren't at Liverpool by then.

Far more eye raising was the reluctance of the Scottish national management to pick Liverpool players for its squad. They left out class players like Hansen and Gillespie and a proven work horse/goal scorer like John Wark. Fair enough, Dalglish was over the hill by then but the only Scottish player from Liverpool to make the world cup squad was Steve Nichol. Really?

Wonder what sort of chump was picking the Scottish team that year

Alex Ferguson

Your point about Ronnie Whelan is taken. But in a way, that's what I'm saying. English teams won't groom Irish players any more unless they're seriously promising. And even if they do get over now, they have so much more competition to get into a squad. Better look elsewhere. Why not here?

Snickers Man

breezy1985 wrote: »

"Ireland by a country mile" me ar$e. Both teams had 4 medal winners it's just Ronnie had more himself. I would call that a draw or a win on penalties at most

Well if you add in the Scottish based players the list lengthens. I know nowadays that might cause a stifled snigger but remember this was the era of the "post Heysel ban" and English clubs were shut out of European competitions. So a lot of top English players went to Scotland. Terry Butcher, Trevor Steven, even Gazza for a while (later). Most of them to Rangers, but it did mean that the standard of the Scottish league was marginally higher back then.

SHOVELLER

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

There is a piece in the RTE website this morning about LOI ground redevelopment and Dalymount is covered in it.

From a quick reading of it the redevelopment is not popular with some fans as it might take away from the character of the place.

Typical of the backward thinking from soccer fans.


http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2021/0401/1207484-grounds-for-redevelopment-modernising-loi-stadiums/

If that is sports journalism I am King Tut. Woeful rubbish. Two of Sligo's stands are relatively new.

In terms of facilities Dalymount and Oriel have not got better since I first started going there as an away fan in the 80s. In other words they have regressed which speaks volumes.

There is also a lot of ill informed ideas here from people who dont actually go to games and so they should be ignored.

There was mention of some Scandinavian countries and their interest in the "best league in the world". Yes they may have an interest but they dont ignore their own league and I have seen that up close when Rovers played there.

Coillte_Bhoy

SHOVELLER wrote: »

If that is sports journalism I am King Tut. Woeful rubbish. Two of Sligo's stands are relatively new.

In terms of facilities Dalymount and Oriel have not got better since I first started going there as an away fan in the 80s. In other words they have regressed which speaks volumes.

There is also a lot of ill informed ideas here from people who dont actually go to games and so they should be ignored.

There was mention of some Scandinavian countries and their interest in the "best league in the world". Yes they may have an interest but they dont ignore their own league and I have seen that up close when Rovers played there.

One covered modern stand about 20 years old, and one unroofed seated section behind the goal, which is less than ten years old. The other stand is a bit ramshackle and needs replacing but a poorly researched article.

Cilldara_2000

Deleted User wrote: »

I stand corrected on the club ownership thing, still hard to imagine a scenario where Limerick GAA or Dublin GAA could sell either the Gaelic Grounds or Croke Park whereas the owners of the Market's Field or Glenmalure Park could (and did, despite fan protests).

Dublin GAA do not own Croke Park.

All purchases or disposals of property by any unit must be approved by Central Council.

chopperbyrne

chopperbyrne wrote: »

Wonder will the FAI get paid for it anyway.

If you don't then you'd imagine that's Dalymount canned.

chopperbyrne

Not sure if the FAI were putting anything towards it anyway. Was just a DCC project as far as I know.

Breezin

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

There is a piece in the RTE website this morning about LOI ground redevelopment and Dalymount is covered in it.

From a quick reading of it the redevelopment is not popular with some fans as it might take away from the character of the place.

Typical of the backward thinking from soccer fans.


http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2021/0401/1207484-grounds-for-redevelopment-modernising-loi-stadiums/

Typical? That is utter nonsense. Most Bohs fans are delighted with the plan for a new stadium, and can't wait to get it done.


Of course there is some nostalgia -- Dalymount is a wonderfully atmospheric place -- but that is natural and it certainly hasn't translated into opposition to the development.

The main issue that is raised with any frequency is that, given the recent success in filling the stadium before Covid, the new place will be too small!