Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

Itssoeasy

The brexiteer lot are complaining that because the EU is checks notes controlling their borders, that Christmas supplies to the the UK may be affected. Do they seriously not hear what they are saying out loud ? At the risk of all of us repeating ourselves here, the UK voted to leave the EU and that included the customs union and the single market. Again they left of their own accord. So can they stop **** complaining about something they did on their own ?

Hotblack Desiato

They didn't actually vote to leave the customs union or single market. In fact several leading Brexiteers promised that one, or the other, or both would not happen.

Well… the electorate didn't vote to leave CU or SM. Parliament did.

Hotblack Desiato

I suppose we could sum it up as

"Who knew that putting up trade barriers would present barriers to trade?"

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122658097#Comment_122658097

Do we really need to drag all this up again? It's been 8 years. It doesn't matter at this point. The UK is out, Farage is finally an MP after nearly 10 attempts and nobody is seriously talking about fixing the damage, ie becoming an EU member.

Hotblack Desiato

Apparently we do, if we have posters saying that leaving the EU means inevitably leaving the CU and SM 😉

Not only did they choose to leave, their parliament chose to leave in the most damaging way possible.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122659793#Comment_122659793

We don't. It's done and time travel is impossible. There is no going back. The whole thing was so vague that I can see that voting leave meant remaining in both the CU and SM while someone else could argue for leaving both and we'd both be right and wrong. There's nothing more to it than that.

rock22

@ancapailldorcha "

The UK is out, … and nobody is seriously talking about fixing the damage, ie becoming an EU member."

The British government is very seriously talking about fixing the damage because the only route to economic recovery is closer ties to the UK's nearest market, i.e. the EU. That is why Starmer is heading to Brussels next week to talk with the EU Commission.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/sep/29/starmer-visit-to-brussels-could-lead-to-overhaul-of-brexit-deal

Whether you acknowledge it or not, Brexit will never be done, because the affects will continue to impact on the UK and there will always be attempts to mitigate, as much as possible, the damages.

I accept that Starmer and the Labour party could not be explicit about re-joining the EU during an election but either this government , or a future government, will have to face up to the reality that economic growth will involve some sort of closer relationship.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122665090#Comment_122665090

From the article:

The prime minister will meet Ursula von der Leyen in Brussels on Wednesday. However, it comes with home secretary Yvette Cooper still vehemently opposed to an agreement that would allow young people to move more freely between Europe and the UK – a measure that EU diplomats regard as key to unlocking more serious talks in the spring.

The EU’s ambassador to the UK, Pedro Serrano, recently appeared to put forward a relatively narrow youth mobility scheme that would allow young Europeans to spend a gap year in Britain more easily, and vice versa. A more comprehensive deal was rejected out of hand by Starmer, leaving officials in Brussels unsure about how serious the UK really is about beefing up its EU links.

I'm glad there is communication and I respect that the Home Secretary, Yvette Cooper is under great pressure to limit migration but if something this small can't be agreed, how will there be any progress? The UK government, true to form, can't decide what it wants itself. That said, I may be proven wrong and we'll see real progress. If not, London and Brussels meeting cordially can only be a good thing.

Brexit is done. It was done on the 30th January 2020. It is objectively done. What have now is the relationship between the UK and its closest neighbours as well as the one between London and Brussels. One of the main things preventing open discussion about rejoining is the lack of a serious movement. Brexit had at least one and it was deeply entrenched in both the media and the Conservative party. Without it, I can't see the UK applying for membership soon.

yagan

The Brexit mandate this UK government has is to not talk about Brexit.

They can go to Brussels but the best I can see happening is a sectoral agreement in which no EU businesses are impacted. Even in the weapons industry the Ukraine invasion has shaken EU governments to increase production, and they won't give the UK a leg up if there's no greater EU alignment involved.

ancapailldorcha

This is pretty disgraceful:

https://twitter.com/BestForBritain/status/1842265819469828444

He's saying he backed leave assuming that Cameron and Osborne would be executing it, something that was patently false before the referendum given that Cameron would be forced to resign if Leave won.

Leroy42

It was all a game to him. He simply wanted to win an argument. Then he wanted to be leader. Then he wanted to win an election.

Brexit was just the vehicle to deliver his wishes and he didn't care about the actual outcome

silverharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122686773#Comment_122686773

imagine not understanding your own country though, totally London centric and out of touch with the rest of their country

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122687025#Comment_122687025

More not understanding how trade works.

Also ignorant of the NI border, and the risks of new troubles the Brexit referendum and its dreadful implementation created.

silverharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122687070#Comment_122687070

thats the consequences , but they went in expecting a Yes I assume? if they thought they would get a No they presumably wouldnt have run it in the first place so I just find it amusing that their own establishment were out of touch

reslfj

More not understanding how trade works.

Plus not understanding the difference between a trade agreement between trade unions/countries (= the rules for trading) and the actual trade with production, standard/rule compliance, Rule of Origin, selling, contract, delivery and delivery times, insurance, custom procedures, invoicing, getting paid, potential legal trouble, potential worse legal troubles outside your own jurisdiction etc. etc.

I will add trade volume.

Large total trade volumes needs very, very efficient border procedures (ref: SM/internal market).

Small individual volumes/values of goods traded needs very low additional cost at borders. NTB

Lars 😀

Enzokk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122685150#Comment_122685150

It is amazing that he did not have a plan if they won. That is shocking, but in fairness to him Cameron did say he would stay on if he lost and then resigned. I think most thought he would resign if he lost the referendum and that is why they asked him and he said the only answer he could. If he had said I will resign if Leave wins would have meant more people voting for Leave to just get rid of him and not because of Brexit.

So Johnson is just doing what he does, looks for blame anywhere else but himself on why he did not succeed.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122689308#Comment_122689308

In fairness, it was obvious at the time that Cameron was going to have to resign as his position would be untenable if Leave won.

I know what Johnson was doing when he acted the way he did. My point was that I'm surprised that he admitted it.

Enzokk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122689503#Comment_122689503

I agree it was obvious, but like I said if he had said he will resign it would have become a referendum on him and not leaving the EU. The fact that Johnson or the likes of Gove did not have a plan, apparently as they thought Cameron would, is now that I think about it unbelievable.

Johnson always struck me as just about intelligent enough to get himself into a lot of trouble. He thinks that by shifting the blame it will help him but like most of his ideas or utterings, once you scratch at the surface it unravels spectacularly.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122690085#Comment_122690085

I see your point now.

Regarding the second paragraph, Johnson got away with it because he always got away with it. It's similar to Cameron and his proclivity for playing political Russian roulette via gambling the whole constitution.

In other news, it looks like Amber Rudd has savaged Johnson's latest dump on the literature market:

https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1842608768556953933

He failed upwards and upwards until he hit the glass ceiling and now he only has a living because there are hordes of people who still think of him as funny Boris from HIGNFY.

rock22

To paraphrase Prince Bernhard(*) of the Netherlands

"The UK can never again afford the luxury of another Johnson success,"

(*The reaction to Montgomery after Market Garden in WW2 , which Montgomery deemed a 90% success :-

"My country can never again afford the luxury of another Montgomery success," stated Bernhard, the Prince of the Netherlands. )

Leroy42

Johnson claims he didn't have a plan because he thought Cameron would have. Did they never think to discuss it as a party? Did nobody calling for leaving the EU in the previous years ever stop considering the actual impact and the plan required?

But even accepting that he was caught off guard by Cameron's lack of a plan and resigning, what about the next 3 or 4 years? Did he not sit down and attempt to work on a plan? No, he simply barked his disagreements from the sidelines (whilst also being in the cabinet!) and did everything he could to undermine May (she didn't need any helo in that regard, to be fair).

And upon taking over as PM? Well, then his plan was simply to get Brexit done. Screw the impact, he wanted to win an argument, win an election.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122703767#Comment_122703767

Johnson had a plan but not the one you'd want him to have. He was supposed to lead Vote Leave to a glorious defeat, uniting the Tory Brexiters behind him for his leadership bid knowing full well that actually leaving can't happen because there was a referendum.

He wasn't caught off guard by Cameron resigning. He was caught off guard by Leave winning. Nobody had planned for that outcome, save for a few traders like Crispin Odey. He ran a half-baked bit for the leadership before screwing over Gove who in turn abandoned him.

Johnson is a pretty easy person to analyse. His only real passion is himself and indulging in his sensual pleasures. Becoming PM was part of this, hence the rush to "Get Brexit done" and spending time anywhere but in COBRA meetings once covid hit. Now, he sits in a nice safe position shouting via his Daily Mail column spouting nonsense once more that he knows he can't be held accountable for.

Patser

Just 2 things @ancapailldorcha

It's the Telegraph that have givne Johnson his platform to shout from, not The Mail. The Telegraph had until recently a scant bit more credibility than the Mail.

Johnson is starting to show signs that he is worried about his legacy. I honestly think he believed he'd be welcomed back into leadership of Tories after they collapsed. Instead he is becoming more and more a laughing stock to the public, and rapidly being sidelined by all candidates as 'he we do not mention'. Johnson isn't stupid enough to realise that as he credibility and popularity disappear, even amongst his converts, the gravy train starts to dry up - and he still has lots and lots of little mouths to feew.

Fr Tod Umptious

I was watching a programme on BBC last night about the bomb at the 1984 Conservative Party Conference.

And I noticed at Thatcher's speech there was a slogan behind her which was flanked on either side by a union flag and an EEC flag.

How times have changed

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-general-view-of-the-conservative-party-conference-in-brighton-107755104.html?imageid=F911BEE9-2A6B-4063-8109-5D1A52BB60AF&p=308342&pn=1&searchId=2a29a0dfcd8ef770802762bc921a7086&searchtype=0

Seth Brundle

Thatcher knew that membership of the EEC was a benefit for the UK.
Nowadays there are people believe that governments can control the weather and can be easily manipulated by those who wish to remove the protections set up to protect the "little person" rather than the corporate entity. That's what Brexit was about, not some vague nationalistic nonsense built on lies.

Seth Brundle

...and yet another Brexit benefit, this time British tourists (and those from non-EU countries) in Paris possibly to pay more...

https://news.sky.com/story/money-latest-personal-finance-consumer-budget-mortgage-pensions-tax-sky-news-live-blog-13040934?postid=8502195#liveblog-body

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122762249#Comment_122762249

It's not "British tourists", it's non-EU residents. An Englishman living in Sligo would pay less than myself, an EU citizen to see the exact same attractions in Paris under this proposal. It's only tangentally connected to Brexit IMO. It's clearly more aimed at squeezing people from places like the US for extra cash.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122762334#Comment_122762334

One can safely assume that proof of residence will primarily be based on passport (tourists generally won't really have any other identification). Anyhow, it is only affecting UK residents because they left the Union.

flatty

In slight fairness, over 17 million of them against their will.

yagan

Not exactly brexit related but I see holyhead was hit with a blockade by farmers protesting the new inheritance tax.