Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

Slightly Kwackers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121693753#Comment_121693753

The facts are 3.3 billion of UK taxpayers money.

Not bad eh, what more do the DUP want?

As was seen in that miserable excuse for substandard toilet paper called the Mail, The DUP will now tour Englands food banks with soup as a thank you to the taxpayers, a couple of verses of "Delaney's Donkey" will give the punters full bellies.

tomhammer..

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121693811#Comment_121693811

3.3 billion isnt big money in UK terms

Hard to see what change is possible in terms of the sea border

The EU is moving further way from the UK in terms of trade

Slightly Kwackers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121694116#Comment_121694116

I get the impression that a convergence is coming about.

I really gave up when Brexit was voted for and left the UK soon after.

I could see no sense in Brexit.

I don't think there is much choice, convergence means they will trade more freely and I am sure that as the EU is calling the shot's most countries will find it easier to align anyway, so Britain can indeed go it alone, but what's the point? A "trading nation" that has discovered no new natural resources and is increasingly relying on imported food and energy might find that diverging from the requirements of the largest single market on the planet is right up there with the chocolate teapots as far as initiatives go.

Nice plump whelks they have now, but there are limits to who they can sell to and how many punters the NHS can stomach pump :-)

So all that money, unrest and loss of trade that will never return for a few catchy phrases and the promise of pint bottles of wine that I would guess will cost and be taxed as heavily as the larger 70cl bottles, I have little doubt if they wanted them, they could have them anyway, like their Polish blue passports and French pint pots :-)

Kermit.de.frog

It makes no sense for the EU to agree to "zero paperwork, zero checks", that means no green lane between GB and NI and not even spot checks presumably.

That's a hole in the single market.

If the UK wants to act unilaterally on this for an election row then once more this country's place in the single market is at risk. I think this will happen over and over again.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121698512#Comment_121698512

Here we go again. As soon as I read the announcement I knew you would be back for round #513 of "the EU is about to abandon Ireland" 🙄

tomhammer..

The whole thing is a diabolical mess

Eu UK ROI trade

Created by Britain

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121698512#Comment_121698512

Has anybody in the UK government said there will be "zero paperwork, zero checks"? No? Then I think your doommongering about Ireland's place in the Single Market is — once again — a bit premature.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121698512#Comment_121698512

This, again, for the Nth time. Where and who in the Irish government has said there'd be "zero paperwork"? Details please: which is the pertinent point given at this stage, we don't have any clear details about what the DUP were promised. Which may only amount to a legislative pat on the head for being the Best British Boys. Maybe put down your copy of chicken licken and consider that the sky isn't always about to fall.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121698610#Comment_121698610

For him Ireland being let down by the EU isn't "the sky falling". Mr. Frog is a massive Irexiter.

Peregrinus

The EU is never, ever, ever going to let the UK decide who does, and who does not, participate in the Single Market. The UK gets to decide this for itself and for nobody else. This is, like, really important to the EU. For obvious reasons, they are very, very strongly motivated to avoid any suggestion that, by leaving the EU, the UK secured more influence over the EU's internal affairs than they ever had as a member.

So it's not the case that the EU is indulging Ireland by its stance here, and that it will eventually tire of doing so, and we'll be abandoned. It's absolutely foundational for the EU that third countries don't get vetos over internal EU matters and it's the EU's general interest, not Ireland's special interest, that they are defending here.

Brexitry is built on profound delusions about what the EU is and how it works and, if Kermit is indeed an Irexiter, then it begins to look as if Irexitry is as well.

yagan

I know I'll get a ban for this but it's the likes of Kermit constantly being allowed to repeat the same debunked tropes on an update thread makes this whole site feel like some drop-in centre for lounge bores.

Danny Drier

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121699150#Comment_121699150

Was he not threadbanned?

Leroy42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121693753#Comment_121693753

We've seen this multiple times across Brexit. The UK insist that a deal us done, its oven ready, the EU has caved.

Much celebration in the Brexit side that finally Brexit has been done properly.

Then the actual documents start coming out and slowly the reality becomes clear.

But, it was never about reality. Uts about setting the narrative. Getting the big headlines about success and letting the real negatives drip slowly so that they are never a massive story.

The DUP can't stay out of Stormont forever. Alliance etc are snapping at their heels. So they needed a way to claim a victory.

Even the 3bn I bet is a con. Nothing they wouldn't have got anyway, maybe a bit more upfront. There is no way, with an election looming, that the Tories are giving 3bn to NI, a place where there are no seats to be won

yagan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121699294#Comment_121699294

If they were I see no value in that ban being lifted.

It is very frustrating that an update thread gets constantly spammed with the same regurgitated debunked nonsense.

It's the kind scutter posting you'd expect in after hours, but this thread is about real world consequences.

Boards still has a practical function, it's just a pity that it comes with spammers.

breezy1985

Walking ball of red faced rage Sammy Wilson isn't happy.

He says this still ties Northern Ireland to EU rules.

Hahaha FFS the hardline DUP and Tory Brexiters are now up in arms over this. Sunak they claim seems to have solved the problem by tying the entire UK to the EU. The whole thing will fall apart again if Britain wants to diverge.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121699294#Comment_121699294

He is threadbanned.

Please do not reply to Kermit's posts folks

salonfire

Another win for the UK chipped off from the EU.

https://www.irishnews.com/news/northern-ireland/uk-government-command-paper-whats-in-the-donaldson-deal-ZXMNR3IBWFCCDFFJ755QB6OWII/

There will be no checks on goods moving within the UK internal market, apart from those designed to thwart criminal activity;

Amending the Withdrawal Act

Does nobody except myself and Kermit see the pattern of negotiation and capitulation of the EU between it and the UK?

Well played from the UK. The chaos in Eastern Europe has weakened the EU and they are in no position to bring the UK to account. The EU will need the UK military strength within the near future.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121702624#Comment_121702624

Ye are not alone in seeing it this way.

Donaldson is as fuking deluded as ye two.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121702624#Comment_121702624

You've just pasted a paragraph of text. I don't see how this is a win for the UK and I've no idea why some so desperately cling to the Irexiter narrative.

Brexit has cost the UK billions, humiliated it on the world stage, destroyed it's soft power and left it in political paralysis. These incremental steps backwards are now wins.

Again, I struggle to understand why you're making this rather silly argument.

Nody

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121702624#Comment_121702624

Yes @salonfire because unlike you and Kermit we can actually use more than one source for information when it comes to checking out what's going on. You appear to conveniently have ignored the "apart from those designed to thwart criminal activity" part. What you have missed those are the exact controls that exist today that they simply have renamed the exact same controls existing today and claiming this is a brand new way of working except it's the same with a blue, red and white name on it. Same way it's no longer "green lane" but a "UK internal market lane" and that will somehow make it a whole new deal that DUP then can suddenly accept. Oh and only for for reference; nothing has actually been changed or amended in the Windsor agreement text because that would require it to be ratified again by UK parliament and EU (or do you have some insider information on the text being changed in a secret UK parliament vote we don't?)...

https://twitter.com/BelfastAe22/status/1752694739839619567

Leroy42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121702624#Comment_121702624

Confirmation bias. You are looking for the bits of information to suit your argument rather than looking at the facts.

You really think Sunak, after the Windsor agreement being his only positive agreement, has unilaterally changed it?

You think the EU is no longer interested in the security of the single market?

You think UK created all this hassle and political infighting about the sea border only to simply wave it away? So Johnson was completely wrong to ever agree to it?

All the previous evidence points to this being yet another attempt by the government to look like they achieved something, when in reality the facts will probably show different.

It raises a massive question though.

If want you believe is correct, then serious questions need to be answered as to why the UK are brining in checks at all since apparently the EU isn't bothered.

FrancieBrady

Surely if the WF has been changed it can be shown.

Anyone able to post the changed text?

pleasant Co.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121702790#Comment_121702790

lol

moon2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121702624#Comment_121702624

Indeed, what a win:

Legislation to confirm Windsor Framework labelling requirements will apply across the UK;

They eliminated one difference between GB and NI by aligning all of the UK to the EU requirements. To be fair, kudos to the DUP for softening brexit for everyone!

I wonder if this is what the "removed checks" claim is actually based on - they plan to mandate the EU standard for the whole UK?

tomhammer..

Poor Sammy giving out about the EU

What did he expect with brexit

Didn't think that through

Hermy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121699150#Comment_121699150

I don't disagree with you yagan but on the other hand I do think there is some merit in allowing these contrarian posts to stand.

Unfortunately these views are no longer just the preserve of a few fringe elements out in the political wilderness so it's more important than ever that they are debunked and seen to be debunked.

Indeed it was that very debunking, that's been done so well by any number of ye on this forum over the years, that I engaged with oh so many Brexit threads ago and which completely changed my own view and understanding of the EU and how it works.

pixelburp

It's instructive that the wind has gone so much out of the sails of any narrative about Brexit's supposed benefits, opportunities and advantages, proven by 8(!!) years of stumbling and demonstrative peril, that the most we see are the occasional drive-by posts that'll make a bold claim based on highly selective quotations, then disappear while the rest of us guffaw at the lingering fundamentalism.

Seems to recall the last time we were here, London's startup capital numbers was proof Brexit was working, despite no evidence startups contribute anything meaningful to the overall economy of a country. The two or three that actually survive more than 12 months that is.

LuckyLloyd

Really feels like this is the end of the process, roughly 7.5 years since the referendum vote. With the Protocol fully secured and Stormont back in session, Brexit is "done". "Done" is now absent of any further caveats, as much as there is a noisy minority in both England and Northern Ireland who will say Brexit has been betrayed from the outset, and the end destination with respect to Northern Ireland is fundamentally unpalatable.

In the end, Ireland was able to protect its position in the Single Market and the institutions of the GFA remain operational. It got confusing at times, but our key concerns were robustly supported by the EU and ultimately addressed despite lots of Perfidious Albion.

Brexit was a half baked notion, that lacked a singular end state upon which all of its proponents could agree, and could never be successful once it washed up against the forbidding rocks of the EU's formidable negotiating capability. David Cameron should never have rolled the dice on something so existential and subversive, although the growing domestic pressure was becoming intolerable and the bespoke membership status with multiple opt outs was a fabulous deal. The EU had already bent over backwards to offer the U.K. a tremendous arrangement.

But both sides of the Brexit equation underestimated the difficulties and complexities of their position. The referendum required a much more aggressive and innovative Remain effort, Remain were caught on the hop. Meanwhile Brexiteers made countless arrogant assumptions that proved incorrect. The Car Czars of Germany and France never did pick up the phone to demand a 'have your cake and eat it' exit.

You return to those chaotic months in 2019 when a divided parliament represented a divided public. No single version of Brexit, nor Remain, could ever command 50% (or near to it) of the electorate. Hopefully the political chaos and unambiguously negative end outcome dissuade other EU states from wanting to leave. Ireland continues to benefit enormously from our participation in the EU, and our interests can be much better represented and protected from within the club. The challenge is to remember that when times get hard, and they will.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121706833#Comment_121706833

Brexit has definitely ended the idea of anyone else leaving.

Orban cries and moans but his no intention of going, the Polish were the same for years. The previously anti EU are in power in Italy and no movement from them either (Meloni's backtracking on the EU and immigration has been astounding)

Brexit isn't over though because this latest UK agreement only lasts until someone tries to diverge from current standards.

salonfire

Interesting take from Rees-Mogg on his show last night marking 4 years since Brexit.

The UK has dodged 4,500 EU Directives, including a gender directive to force companies into greater gender balance in their Executive ranks, mandatory reporting on ESG performance by companies, land directives that triggered the current farmers protest.

The EU has concluded zero additional trade deals, with talks suspended with Australia.

UK growth exceeding EU and Eurozone growth, exceeding the size of French and German economies.

UK seeking trade deals with the faster growing global economies.

... Makes you think.