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Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 12,451 ✭✭✭✭ breezy1985


    Right I thought by "in our best interest" you meant Ireland should sneakily work towards a hard border.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 16,340 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sam Russell


    This has always been the case.

    Those who enter Ireland with a visa that is valid for Ireland and not the UK are not entitled to cross into NI. Equally, those in NI who have a visa for UK but not Ireland are not entitled to cross into Ireland. Now not many people fit into either category, but some do.

    What is happening here is the UK are extending this to include all EU citizens who are not Irish citizens. That is new.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,407 ✭✭✭✭ Strazdas


    But how would they know the difference between an EU citizen and an Irish citizen? EU citizens come from the entire EU27, not just eastern Europe. It would inevitably mean doing spot and ad hoc checks on many Irish citizens crossing the border, not just EU passport holders.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,451 ✭✭✭✭ breezy1985


    The EU citizens will be taller and better looking 😁

    But seriously it's a stupid non law as far as the border is concerned. Don't we have greenways and shared water ways and all that now so are the PSNI gonna be stopping hikers and cyclists looking for passports.

    In reality it will be the border between NI and Britain where this will be enforced



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,407 ✭✭✭✭ Strazdas


    That's what I'm thinking. It would be next to impossible to guess who might be an Irish citizen or EU citizen crossing the border and would mean having to stop and question numerous Irish citizens in order to try and find the EU ones.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,085 ✭✭✭✭ ArmaniJeanss


    This isn't particularly new - we were discussing it (the Nationality and Borders Bill) back on page 365 in early December.

    To repeat what I said then - I don't think the intention is to stop EU citizens at the border because of the checks which would be required for everyone, as pointed out.

    The problem though is what happens when an incident occurs in a country in which you were illegally present, and you come to the intention of the authorities. Does your reckless disregard for international borders nullify your health/driving insurance etc?



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,451 ✭✭✭✭ breezy1985


    It would also men having to stop a lot of UK citizens crossing the border (even if we are all just Paddies to the Tories)



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 86,985 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Capt'n Midnight


    203 crossings for vehicles. one still blocked and one ford , not counting tracks and trails , rail, canals, boating and simply walking across a cross a field or out the other gate of a business, besides there'd need to be 110 million person-checks a year vs Heathrow's 81m.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,451 ✭✭✭✭ breezy1985


    What would become of Watterweys Airlann and similar cross border operations if every person using them had to be stopping and checked



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 25,607 Mod ✭✭✭✭ pixelburp


    Don't forget the new roads that cross the border. Not that I imagine the N54 or N54/A3 was large in Whitehall's thoughts when tabling this bill, but if you want to travel from Monaghan to Cavan by main roads (for example), you have to pass through the North.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,829 ✭✭✭ ambro25


    I did not mean ‘at border crossings’ but, as is done in/by many continental EU26 countries (incl. Schengen), ID checks as part of chance/random police/customs checks on the road, in the street, in a train […] a variable distance away from borders.

    It would indeed mean that, just like e.g. French PAF bods routinely check French citizens (amongst other nationals) on trains incoming from Belgium or Italy.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 86,985 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Capt'n Midnight


    The number of border crossings is increasing too. Who will pay for design changes to the narrow water bridge ?

    Don't look at Johnson's party, look over there.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,451 ✭✭✭✭ breezy1985




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,829 ✭✭✭ ambro25


    Possibly so, I’m not sure. I seem to recall that they do so on the Paris-London line that goes through the Chunnel?

    Keep in mind that mine were guesses about how to enforce in the absence of a physical border (as posited Padre Pio’s post I was answering)



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,496 ✭✭✭✭ Podge_irl


    I was travelling for work from Netherlands to Germany in a minivan and the cops pulled us off the motorway and checked everyone's ID and gave a bollocking to everyone who didn't have a passport/national ID on them. It is still a requirement even though vanishingly rarely checked.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 16,340 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sam Russell


    I think Ireland should introduce a formal Nation ID card. It could allow huge benefits to Gov administration.

    We have three candidates - the Credit Card Passport, the CC Driving licence, and the Public Services Card. Each could be morphed into the basis of a National ID card.

    Obviously the passport could only be used by Irish Citizens. It is very secure,

    The Driving licence is quite secure, but could non-drivers be issued one?

    The PSC was probably introduced as a proto NID card by stealth, but that backfired and perhaps needs to be backed by primary legislation, or forgotten - just a Free Travel Card.

    A political choice needs to be made, and implemented.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,772 ✭✭✭✭ murphaph


    At the very least the passport card should be valid for 10 years like the passport book. There is no reason for the short validity and no reason that you should have to own a passport book as well as the card (plenty of Europeans who never leave the EU/EEA don't own a passport).



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 16,340 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sam Russell


    The CC Passport could be reissued for the second five years online, or with a personal visit to the passport office - for security checks - with or without a charge to the holder. Clearly, it could only be issued to Irish Citizens. A residency card, of similar design, could be issued to non-citizen residents, confirming their right to reside in the state. [Should one's address be on the card?]

    The driving licence is a secure document but includes one's address which the passport does not - that might be an issue. It also does not carry any information about nationality or right to residence information, which might be a problem for a national ID card. For non-drivers, a similar card could be issued without the driving bit.

    The PSC could be turned into a national ID card with the inclusion of some information that would be required for an ID card. Whether that would be acceptable on a Free Travel Pass might be an issue.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,940 ✭✭✭ joeysoap


    many Times. The road from Clones to Cavan goes through the the North many times. ( fwiw there’s an off licence on it less than 1 mile from Clones)

    Post edited by joeysoap on


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 28,920 CMod ✭✭✭✭ ancapailldorcha


    Mod: Please don't just paste amusing links here. Posts removed. Thanks.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 16,340 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sam Russell


    I think a suitable ID card is needed to overcome the threat that this tightening of the border might present.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,325 ✭✭✭✭ Peregrinus


    The problem is that the Irish authorities issuing ID cards to enable people to cross the border looks like accepting/co-operating with a hardening of the border. The Irish position is very strongly that you shouldn't need an ID card to cross the border. If the UK were to introduce measures to make an ID card necessary or useful the Irish government would not respond by issuing ID cards; they would would respond by pushing back against the measures.

    But note that this is all hypothetical. Nothing the UK has said or done suggests that they are going to be checking people crossing the border, or conducting random checks looking for people in NI who have crossed the border.



  • Posts: 533 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    It’s already having a chilling effect on tourism.

    ...

    (Removed by poster. OT. Will stick to political theory.)

    Post edited by [Deleted User] on


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 28,920 CMod ✭✭✭✭ ancapailldorcha


    Mod: Can we get back on topic please. Feel free to open a new thread on ID cards.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,640 ✭✭✭✭ BlitzKrieg


    Looks like in one of the many post brexit issues between private companies VISA has blinked first vs Amazon.


    Due to Brexit leaving the UK no longer protected by the EU over credit cards hiking up credit card charges and the UK government being once again incompetant (or unwilling) to try and put their own in, both VISA and MASTERCARD were hitting british credit card charges hard. Amazon had struck a deal with Mastercard which led to the Amazon credit card, but rather then pay the extra charges to VISA, Amazon had intended to just stop services for the credit card on the 19th of January for the UK only.


    Well VISA blinked and an email just came through from amazon.co.uk saying the service will not stop on the 19th as amazon and visa are hashing out a deal


    "The expected change regarding the use of Visa credit cards on Amazon.co.uk will no longer take place on January 19. We are working closely with Visa on a potential solution that will enable customers to continue using their Visa credit cards on Amazon.co.uk. 


    Should we make any changes related to Visa credit cards, we will give you advance notice. Until then, you can continue to use Visa credit cards, debit cards, Mastercard, American Express, and Eurocard as you do today.


    Thank you for being an Amazon customer."


    And that's a big part of Brexit, big companies will clash but eventually they will cut some deal among themselves so they both get a piece of brexit pie. But as seen with fishing earlier they're more then happy to let medium and small companies go to the wall and pick up the pieces for themselves.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,451 ✭✭✭✭ breezy1985


    Ya but the piece of Brexit pie they are splitting is a tiny little cupcake compared to the giant black forest they use to share



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