Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117997406#Comment_117997406

No, it isn't. Shortages are happening now. The EU is a big part of the reason the UK is the world's 5th largest economy. Take that away and this is what happens. The test began when the UK left and results so far are dire.

Look at the language you're using. "Withstand shockwaves"? While the rest of the world is recovering from covid, the UK has to somehow deal with the sort of crisis I expect to read about in one of my medieval histories but at least then Mary Tudor or Richard II didn't create the shortages.

Professor Moriarty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117997294#Comment_117997294

In a European context, Hungary, Poland and Belarus spring to mind.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117997406#Comment_117997406

This is not how Brexit was sold to the 17m voters (and therefore cannot be the Brexit that people voted for). Years of potential economic hardship before it can be determined if Brexit is a success or failure? None of this got even a hint of a mention in 2016.

Padraig178

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117997438#Comment_117997438

Well, there were always going to be shockwaves when you abandon they way you have traded for decades in favour of a different model. However the pandemic has meant we're not going to get a clear picture for some time of just how much disruption there is.

Food shortages in certain items are also happening in other European countries and are down to supply chain issues cause by a shortage of HGV drivers across Europe.

In terms of the predicted economic chaos of Brexit the UK's tech sector is on course for a record year of investment with £18billion of venture capital coming into the country during the first six months of 2021 - Project Fear warned us everyone would steer clear of the UK post-Brexit.

This is why it's pointless jumping on early friction issues.I'd rather wait a few years to get a truer picture.I certainly hope the UK's economy doesn't go belly-up because we have too much at stake here in Ireland for that to happen.

And again I keep coming back to the polls. If there really was terrible disruption in the UK and people were genuinely unhappy at the progress of Johnson's government why is it consistently failing to show in the opinion polls ?

Padraig178

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117997624#Comment_117997624

To be fair the economic hardship caused by the pandemic was unknown at the time of the Brexit referendum.That's why it will be years before a true picture emerges.

silverharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117997045#Comment_117997045

the people that voted for brexit "Brexit was never anything more than the expression of abject hatred and selfishness. Hatred of foreigners,"

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117997774#Comment_117997774

That's an inference that ancapaill is talking literally of half the leaver voters; but the "Breaking Point" advertisement campaign was clearly trading on a xenophobic reaction towards the myth of "uncontrolled" immigration as pushed by the EU (it Wasn't). Mixed with the various triumphalist statements of Britain Ascendent, hardly born from an enthusiastic inclusiveness. It may not have been the reason for everyone's vote, clearly, but it was right there in the narrative from some.

Padraig178

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117997796#Comment_117997796

I always thought one of the main reasons for the failure of the Remain campaign was their constant inference that anyone who voted for Brexit was a racist xenophobe when quite clearly many of them not.

It has continued unabated since Brexit happened - Labour's conference in Brighton showed the rank and file had learned nothing from their disastrous 2019 election defeat.

Five million EU citizens applied for settled status in the UK after Brexit. There are now at least a million more EU citizens living in the UK since the referendum. This is not the action of people who feel unsafe or unwelcome in a country.

"There are now at least a million more EU citizens living in the UK since the referendum."

Do you a source for this? Sounds like a lot of people to move there.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117997845#Comment_117997845

Except that this is a Brexiter victim fantasy and nothing more.

Labour have learned plenty. They now have a competent leader, they've realised that the Brexit issue is settled unless something changes (which seems likely) and they're very slowly beginning to form a narrative on things that people care about like the NHS and crime.

Applying for settled status is just a box ticking exercise. It's not really a metric for anything. The alternative was emigrating.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117997774#Comment_117997774

For starters, only 17.4 million people voted leave and this in a country of nearly 70 million so even if your characterisation were true, 17.4 million isn't even a quarter of the population.

And, yes. This is how the campaign was waged. Scaremongering about Turkey joining after lodging its application, Nigel Farage's infamous poster that he showed off on the same day Jo Cox was murdered and the essentially fake claim that immigration drives down wages.

If there was anything more to it, people would have been outraged over Johnson's red bus, the dumping of fishermen's catches in the centre of London or the continuation of the pitiful growth in the standard of living in this country.

To get back on topic, this is why the shortages are worse here. The government are so wedded to their nationalism and xenophobia that only 27 drivers, ironically applied to their scheme which stipulated that they had to be gone by Christmas.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117997845#Comment_117997845

Source please.

20silkcut

If you want to see real racism you will find it in places like South Africa, China, the Middle East, Russia, Latin America etc.

Racism in places like Britain and Western Europe and the Coastal US states and here in Ireland is far more subtle and far less likely to lead to your death.

The world racism bar is very low. It’s very easy for a country like Britain to be a safe country in comparison to 2nd and 3rd world countries. That’s no big deal.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117997999#Comment_117997999

Somehow, I don't see my colleagues taking much comfort in that if that's what I say next time one of them tells me they were assaulted for speaking their native language. Saying that Britain is less racist than somewhere like Russia or that its institutions and public servants are more honest is a pretty low bar to jump over.

20silkcut

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117998019#Comment_117998019

No doubt Britain has gone very much backwards in relation to racism especially since 2016

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117998049#Comment_117998049

Don't want to go too far off topic but I think that while individual racism is very much on the decline here, it's the institutional sort that's the real problem.

Padraig178

A 2018 EU-sponsored survey entitled ' Being Black in the EU ' found black people in the EU continue to face “widespread and entrenched prejudice” in many areas of life, as well as racist harassment and attacks. 

The UK had the second-best record on the prevalence of perceived racist violence in 5 years before the survey, just behind Portugal.

Ireland had the second worst.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117998132#Comment_117998132

Thats called "whataboutery", i don't think anyone ever claimed Ireland or the EU didn't have issues with racism.

The UK has a far larger issues with foreigners in general that is not specific to the colour of anyone's skin

Padraig178

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117998173#Comment_117998173

It's merely one survey to counter some suggestions on here that racism is on the rise in the UK.

It isn't.

In fact in my experience I've found the Brits to be as welcoming to foreigners as the Irish although obviously as I'm not black I can't offer first hand experiences in either country.

With regards to on-topic Brexit I don't think racism played a huge part in Brexit - sure there will always be a small element but not significant.

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117998196#Comment_117998196

It's is on the rise. Id go and give you numerous examples of the same. But I'd garner on the nature of your narrative so far you would quickly move the goalposts.

As already stated , no one said there isn't racism in EU or Ireland.

Padraig178

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117997937#Comment_117997937

I hate to keep coming back to opinion polls but they are an indication of the popularity of political parties and they consistently show Labour are not making any breakthroughs.

After two weeks of party conferences they've barely moved.

Obviously it will be much tighter come the next election but at the moment it's hard to see Labour benefiting from anything other than self-inflicted wounds by the Tories.

Raising taxes is one of them.

fash

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117998070#Comment_117998070

A "person of colour" family member of mine encountered a post-brexit racist incident in non-London England involving being accosted in the street by a random stranger gloatingly stating that said family member and other foreigners would now be kicked out of the country.

I suspect that incident was not isolated.

Padraig178

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117998447#Comment_117998447

I don't doubt such incidents happen but are they indicative of increased racism as a result of Brexit ? I'm not so sure.

Brit friends of mine here in Ireland are aware of increased Anglophobia as a result of Brexit but do not consider it part of a widespread pattern.

Britain is a successful multi-cultural society that has been welcoming large-scale immigration for a very long time including what might soon be a very large influx from Hong Kong.

They wouldn't come in their millions if they didn't think they'd be welcomed.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117997936#Comment_117997936

EU net immigration was down to 50,000 people in the year of 2019 (pre-pandemic), so I would definitely question that one.

Enzokk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117997668#Comment_117997668

Seems convenient that the pandemic can get the blame for the current immediate problems. Then we have the classic moving of the goalposts of the success of Brexit only being judged a few years down the line. So basically if it will be bad, tough luck and suffer it. Then after 10 years of needless suffering, maybe then you can say Brexit wasn't a good idea.

As others have pointed out, this was not the selling points made in 2016. As for the opinion polls not moving, I think the government paying for people not to lose their jobs during the pandemic may have something to do with their current polling. But once that ends, we will check what the mood of the country is. And yes I am fully aware of the contradicting position I am taking here where Brexit should not use the pandemic as an excuse for the current troubles the UK has with supply issues, vs the current polling using the pandemic as an excuse. But just like the current problems are not 100% the blame of Brexit and the pandemic has played a role, the same for the current polling of the Tories during this pandemic.

As for our dependence on the UK, we have had to re-evaluate our relationship with the UK. Brexit is a good thing for Ireland, it will allow Ireland to make that break. We really shouldn't be tied to the fate of the UK. The current energy crises and the fact our prices will rise because we are tied to the UK is exactly why.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117998132#Comment_117998132

Typical deflection, a post to examine racist attitudes in the UK and the answer is to deflect to racism in the EU and Ireland. Others used to do this as well and they have been asked not to post here any longer because it is disruptive. You will be called out on it. Takes away credibility you have as a poster, and seeing as you are a new account it is not a great start. Debate the point instead of deflecting away.

wexfordman2

I think people are looking solely at one side if the brexit team when considering the near term outcomes and realisation of the cluster!!! That brexit is and was always going to be.

What people are forgetting is the other major player which has been most of the british media, I dint see them owning up to their part in it, in fact I see them doubling down even harder than the tories.

Strazdas

Telegraph reports that Frost's new 'red line' is that he wants ECJ oversight of the Protocol removed (I was reading an EU observer earlier today saying that this would be an absolute no-no for the EU27) :

https://twitter.com/DarranMarshall/status/1446943741655273474

20silkcut

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117998527#Comment_117998527

Yes and most of that progress to being a multi cultural diverse society occurred since 1973. The 70, 80’s 90’s 00’s and the last decade as a whole were a period of fantastic growth and development in the history of the U.K coinciding with its membership of the EU.

That fact is impervious to the minds of brexiteers. All they could see was too many foreigners.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117998196#Comment_117998196

It's a survey specifically asking about being black in the eu. Are you suggesting the only racism to be found Is against black people?

I'd love to see the same question asked about Eastern European, Middle Eastern, Indian/Pakistani and especially Asians post covid.

Let's also not forget the mountains of articles and statistics showing racism is on the rise in the UK specifically since brexit.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/20/racism-on-the-rise-since-brexit-vote-nationwide-study-reveals

Will Self put it perfectly when debating with the poor facsimile of a human, mark francois

"Well, because since 2016 your problem really, Mark is not that you have to be a racist or an anti-semite to vote for Brexit.

It's just that every racist and anti-semite in the country did."

ancapailldorcha

Mod: Please don't just paste images. Post removed.