Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

Strazdas

Interestingly, Frost is anti-lockdown and anti-restrictions. I suppose he's consistent anyway, very much at the ERG end of the Conservative Party and probably believes all the stuff he comes out with

https://twitter.com/DavidGHFrost/status/1411697276578377731

JoePirate

J Mysterio wrote: »

Coveney hits back to say UK not showing 'generosity'.

I think Martin also had something to say beforehand.

Ireland won't just allow this type of propoganda without countering it.

It's an interesting time. Our nearest neighbour, the UK, apparently is not willing to honour its treaty obligations. I'm surprised. I'd always admired them.

So what does the Irish government do now? We negotiated the Protocol to avoid a border and hence the obvious consequence of war on the Island.

The British government now wants to renege on the agreement for their own reasons, and they obviously have no concern for the inevitable civil war that will occur.

What should the Irish government do?

Strazdas

JoePirate wrote: »

It's an interesting time. Our nearest neighbour, the UK, apparently is not willing to honour its treaty obligations. I'm surprised. I'd always admired them.

So what does the Irish government do now? We negotiated the Protocol to avoid a border and hence the obvious consequence of war on the Island.

The British government now wants to renege on the agreement for their own reasons, and they obviously have no concern for the inevitable civil war that will occur.

What should the Irish government do?

The sensible thing to do for Ireland and the EU is to 'play the long game' and do nothing drastic or hasty. Johnson and Frost would probably love a huge public bust up with the EU, with insults being hurled across the Channel (great for their ratings), but if the EU are wise, they'll stick to their guns and stay calm and measured.

Piehead

Strazdas wrote: »

Interestingly, Frost is anti-lockdown and anti-restrictions. I suppose he's consistent anyway, very much at the ERG end of the Conservative Party and probably believes all the stuff he comes out with

https://twitter.com/DavidGHFrost/status/1411697276578377731

The Venn diagram of anti-lockdowners and brexiteers is a perfect circle

Podge_irl

Piehead wrote: »

The Venn diagram of anti-lockdowners and brexiteers is a perfect circle

Acknowledging you need to come out of restrictions eventually and it will inevitably cause a rise in cases is not "anti-lockdown"

Brexit is starting to infect and polarise issues that have absolutely nothing to do with it.

Podge_irl

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

There’s a picture floating around today of England football team if there was no migration, only 3 are English and out of there seem to be Irish roots

And?

ancapailldorcha

Podge_irl wrote: »

Acknowledging you need to come out of restrictions eventually and it will inevitably cause a rise in cases is not "anti-lockdown"

Brexit is starting to infect and polarise issues that have absolutely nothing to do with it.

I disagree. Everyone knows that we need to come out of lockdown and get back to normal at some point. The anti-lockdown brigade care only about themselves not being inconvenienced and nothing else as epitomised by Laurence Fox bragging about buying a mask exemption badge from the internet. They're employing the same lazy, disingenuous Brexity tropes such as faux concern for the working classes and jabbering on and on about freedom.

Covid has exposed deep inequalities that are more prevalent in Britain than in most countries and it's the young and the poor that are paying for it while the rich and the elderly are largely insulated from its effects, similar to Brexit. These issues have always been here but hopefully, we can start a better dialogue now.

CelticRambler

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

They're employing the same lazy, disingenuous Brexity tropes such as faux concern for the working classes and jabbering on and on about freedom.

I've been mildly amused at how the "freedom" trope has so seamlessly been transferred from Brexit to Covid in the UK. Having been magicked up out of nowhere by Johnson, the British media is enthusiastically talking about "Freedom Day" in a way that no other country is doing.

Everywhere else, there are dates for the imposition and/or lifting of various public health measures. They come, they go, and people make adjustments to their lives (mostly minor) accordingly, knowing that the pandemic is far from over.

Every time I hear Johnson, one of his cronies, or any reporter talk about Britain's "Freedom Day" I'm reminded of how so many US presidents in recent memory have declared their pet Middle Eastern war to be "over". Yet here we are, in 2021, with the Taliban taking over US army bases in Afghanistan, along with the weapons and vehicles so generously supplied by the West.

If the Brexit war is "done" and the Covid war is "done" what or who will be the Tories' next phony target, to help them win their next couple of elections?

Capt'n Midnight

Podge_irl wrote: »

Brexit is starting to infect and polarise issues that have absolutely nothing to do with it.

You could argue that Brexit is a result of polarising issues that have nothing to do with EU membership.

Immigration, left behind regions with nothing to loose, the whole DUP thing.


None of which have improved since leaving the EU.

At this stage I'm sure Boris & Co. would love a winnable war before the next election, like Maggie did. Or at least a victory over the EU, which should be easy seeing as how the EU are quite good at setting up 'wins' for the other side to sell back home.

Seth Brundle

Looks like the UK could be challenged at the WTO for unfair support of its steel industry by placing blocks against cheap imports according to the FT
Apparently 25% tariffs under emergency legislation should have ended on June 30th but the government has extended them overruling their Trade Remedies Authority who said there were no reasons for keeping them.
https://www.ft.com/content/c2c9b8df-5b04-49d2-9bb1-033c772ed65e

ancapailldorcha

CelticRambler wrote: »

I've been mildly amused at how the "freedom" trope has so seamlessly been transferred from Brexit to Covid in the UK. Having been magicked up out of nowhere by Johnson, the British media is enthusiastically talking about "Freedom Day" in a way that no other country is doing.

Everywhere else, there are dates for the imposition and/or lifting of various public health measures. They come, they go, and people make adjustments to their lives (mostly minor) accordingly, knowing that the pandemic is far from over.

Every time I hear Johnson, one of his cronies, or any reporter talk about Britain's "Freedom Day" I'm reminded of how so many US presidents in recent memory have declared their pet Middle Eastern war to be "over". Yet here we are, in 2021, with the Taliban taking over US army bases in Afghanistan, along with the weapons and vehicles so generously supplied by the West.

If the Brexit war is "done" and the Covid war is "done" what or who will be the Tories' next phony target, to help them win their next couple of elections?

The irony is that now the freedom trope is working against and straining Johnson in the same way that he and the tabloids did the same to David Cameron. If the public don't get their freedom day, the government are going to be feeling more of this.

Covid has just replaced Brexit in the culture war. Brexit is now little more than quibbling over technical details (with significant consequences for many if bungled of course). I don't think covid is going to help the Tories win an election. What will help is that the Labour party remains in a parlous state of disarry and internal internecine warfare.

Podge_irl

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I disagree. Everyone knows that we need to come out of lockdown and get back to normal at some point. The anti-lockdown brigade care only about themselves not being inconvenienced and nothing else as epitomised by Laurence Fox bragging about buying a mask exemption badge from the internet. They're employing the same lazy, disingenuous Brexity tropes such as faux concern for the working classes and jabbering on and on about freedom.

Covid has exposed deep inequalities that are more prevalent in Britain than in most countries and it's the young and the poor that are paying for it while the rich and the elderly are largely insulated from its effects, similar to Brexit. These issues have always been here but hopefully, we can start a better dialogue now.

I agree there is an overlap but I am not really talking about the Laurence Fox's of the world.

I do, however, worry that support or even involvement in Brexit is becoming something of a bellweather for how people view completely unrelated events. Javid's views are not Laurence Fox's - his article was reasonably measured and sensible even if you disagree with the conclusions. There is a definite split developing (developed?) in the UK along Brexit lines that is worrying close to the D/R split in America where ostensibly non-partisan issues nonetheless fall along almost entirely partisan lines.

Podge_irl

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

You could argue that Brexit is a result of polarising issues that have nothing to do with EU membership.

Immigration, left behind regions with nothing to loose, the whole DUP thing.

And I would completely agree.

I guess this is the problem when you create a bogeyman to blame for all your ills. When you successful rid yourself of them and nothing improves you run into trouble.

ancapailldorcha

Podge_irl wrote: »

I agree there is an overlap but I am not really talking about the Laurence Fox's of the world.

I do, however, worry that support or even involvement in Brexit is becoming something of a bellweather for how people view completely unrelated events. Javid's views are not Laurence Fox's - his article was reasonably measured and sensible even if you disagree with the conclusions. There is a definite split developing (developed?) in the UK along Brexit lines that is worrying close to the D/R split in America where ostensibly non-partisan issues nonetheless fall along almost entirely partisan lines.

Javid is an acolyte of Ayn Rand and would therefore find the idea of government ordered lockdown repulsive. I get the impression that he's being welcomed back in because he's a known quality, Dominic Cummings is gone and will make the right noises about ending lockdown and, if need be, Brexit.

Capt'n Midnight

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Looks like the UK could be challenged at the WTO for unfair support of its steel industry by placing blocks against cheap imports according to the FT
Apparently 25% tariffs under emergency legislation should have ended on June 30th but the government has extended them overruling their Trade Remedies Authority who said there were no reasons for keeping them.
https://www.ft.com/content/c2c9b8df-5b04-49d2-9bb1-033c772ed65e

Wunderbar, because business need stability.

A reminder too that this was an EU era measure to preserve jobs in the face of Trump's tariffs 'against China' which affected the EU and Canada more.

Wonder how they are going to spin this, given Labour were demanding the tariffs remain to protect 'red wall' jobs.

ClosedAccountFuzzy

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Looks like the UK could be challenged at the WTO for unfair support of its steel industry by placing blocks against cheap imports according to the FT
Apparently 25% tariffs under emergency legislation should have ended on June 30th but the government has extended them overruling their Trade Remedies Authority who said there were no reasons for keeping them.
https://www.ft.com/content/c2c9b8df-5b04-49d2-9bb1-033c772ed65e

They'll probably need to leave a the WTO. It's red tape impinging upon on their beloved sovereignty.

Surely they realised they can't just engage in illegal state aid or protectionism and that doing so will impact a lot more than their relationship with the EU.

RobMc59

There's a documentary this evening(19.35 BBC1)'Panorama,Brexit six months on'.
In which UK fishermen claim it's easier to send shellfish to China than the EU due to the paperwork required.

ancapailldorcha

RobMc59 wrote: »

There's a documentary this evening(19.35 BBC1)'Panorama,Brexit six months on'.
In which UK fishermen claim it's easier to send shellfish to China than the EU due to the paperwork required.

Is there a point you're trying to make here? Is this offsetting the red tape they're experiencing when selling to their primary market?

ClosedAccountFuzzy

It quite possibly is. The EU, US and several others have rather exacting standards and tight regulation when it comes to food products. That's not going to change.

If the UK agreed to implement EU standards, it would become a hell of a lot easier to export.

Bear in mind that even US food exporters to Europe implement EU standards in their production facilities etc.

There's nothing unusual being asked of the UK. They're just gone off on a high horse or europhobia and would rather destroy a sector than accept EU standards. It's dogmatic, political nonsense Vs practical reality of trade,

RobMc59

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Is there a point you're trying to make here? Is this offsetting the red tape they're experiencing when selling to their primary market?

I wasn't particularly trying to make a point although it could indicate as time passes UK vendors are looking at markets outside the EU due to excessive paperwork required to export to the EU.
It does add more weight to the assertion the effects of brexit are still evolving and not 'done and dusted as was claimed by some immediately after the UK finally left.

Professor Moriarty

Long and interesting article in today's Telegraph. Essentially, imports have plummeted leading to many small businesses being unable to manufacture. As the Covid cloak lifts, this impact of Brexit is becoming evident and won't be going away. Adding to the problem of red tape is the cost of imports has also risen. For example, chemical imports are down 25% since the last quarter of 2020. In an allied problem, haulage is in big trouble as the number of EU HGV drivers has halved. The article goes on to say that all of these problems will be exacerbated once full controls are brought in.

ancapailldorcha

RobMc59 wrote: »

I wasn't particularly trying to make a point although it could indicate as time passes UK vendors are looking at markets outside the EU due to excessive paperwork required to export to the EU.
It does add more weight to the assertion the effects of brexit are still evolving and not 'done and dusted as was claimed by some immediately after the UK finally left.

Given that years ago, Germany was exporting more to China when the UK hadn't voted to leave, it's a bit late to be looking at foreign markets now. The other argument is that successive neoliberal countries have left the country in such a shape that the inventor of the tank now can't make them.

ClosedAccountFuzzy

Most developed markets have plenty of paperwork, unless they implement recognition of standards.

There are Irish shellfish producers who export directly to Japan for example, but it's ultra premium stuff.

The reality of it is the logistics of exporting products far away becomes very expensive, particularly for fresh products.

Exporting to the EU while being in the EU wasn't even really exporting as it's a single domestic market. That will not be replicated anywhere else.

Sending shellfish to E. Leclerc or Carrefour in Bordeaux was no different to sending them to Morrisons or Waitrose in Bristol.

Leroy42

RobMc59 wrote: »

I wasn't particularly trying to make a point although it could indicate as time passes UK vendors are looking at markets outside the EU due to excessive paperwork required to export to the EU.
It does add more weight to the assertion the effects of brexit are still evolving and not 'done and dusted as was claimed by some immediately after the UK finally left.

Who claimed? The only people even remotely saying anything was done was Johnson and his government. Indeed, you may recall the line 'get brexit done'.

The reality is that Brexit will never actually be done. It will be a constant process where the UK tries to eek out a little better access, and the EU will try to get the UK to adhere to regulations.

People will still want to travel, the EU will still remain a massive trading opportunity. And far from China being some type of trade saviour, what internationally we have learnt is that trade with China is very much done on their terms and too their benefit

moon2

RobMc59 wrote: »

I wasn't particularly trying to make a point although it could indicate as time passes UK vendors are looking at markets outside the EU due to excessive paperwork required to export to the EU.
It does add more weight to the assertion the effects of brexit are still evolving and not 'done and dusted as was claimed by some immediately after the UK finally left.

Remember - 1 year ago they were bound by the same set of standards and practices, and it was easy to trade! The EU has also not meaningfully changed over the last year.

At the end of the day it's not EU rules or regulations which are making it difficult to import to the EU, it's the UK governments choices which are making it difficult.

I'd agree that people will export to their easiest market, though they'll likely have similar issues everywhere they look if they're government can't abide by common standards or treaties.

RobMc59

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

I mean you voted to be subjected to excessive paperwork and to leave the single market and then at every opportunity chose the hardest Brexit possible.

When people pointed this out they were put down and dismissed as project fear.

If you want frictionless trade with Eu you sort of need to be a member,

what do you think would happen to uk exports to China of shellfish once someone there gets food poisoning (or a British aircraft carrier rolls into their neighbourhood) and these imports are banned?

I doubt leaving the EU means British shellfish will suddenly be unfit for consumption.
European customers have found new suppliers for products they previously got from the UK,it stands to reason UK vendors will look elsewhere to sell their products.

ArmaniJeanss

RobMc59 wrote: »

I wasn't particularly trying to make a point although it could indicate as time passes UK vendors are looking at markets outside the EU due to excessive paperwork required to export to the EU.
It does add more weight to the assertion the effects of brexit are still evolving and not 'done and dusted as was claimed by some immediately after the UK finally left.

Obviously I haven't see the Panorama programme yet (thanks for the heads-up, will record).
But I suspect that the 'easier to export shellfish to China than the EU' comment will turn out to be largely hyperbolic, in a 'its easier to send to the moon than the EU' kind of way.

ClosedAccountFuzzy

What they're not getting is that the EU has objectives to create and maintain a single market between its members. Its raison d'être is to do just that. There's an overarching philosophy of ensuring barrier free trade and encouraging and even supporting intra European trade and building networks.

Once you step into the world markets nobody has objectives like that. It's about competition and national interests and it's a much tougher environment. Other countries have no need to show solidarity in anything other than a very transactional way.

They're also expecting the EU to continue to treat them like a member when they declared themselves an absolute competitor.

They politically mock, ridicule and demean the EU at ever opportunity, even to the point that elements seem to want to damage or destroy it, not just leave it.

They signed agreements in bad faith and then tore them up or continuously threaten to, barely a few weeks afterwards.

They practically undermined, blamed and mocked neighbours during a pandemic and unprecedented public health crisis, when they went off into weird vaccine nationalism.

They treat EU citizens with utter contempt when it comes to immigration and residency and seem to be getting off on arbitrary detention and deportation of people who made their lives in the UK, never expecting to have them turned upsidedown by a political whim like this.

Yet they still rant, rave and stamp their feet when they're not given the same level access as a member state.

The EU isn't a doormat and the UK would want to take a look at itself in the mirror sometime. The image being reflected is not particularly pleasant.

RobMc59

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Given that years ago, Germany was exporting more to China when the UK hadn't voted to leave, it's a bit late to be looking at foreign markets now. The other argument is that successive neoliberal countries have left the country in such a shape that the inventor of the tank now can't make them.

Capitalism doesn't sit well with me but neither does over protectionism in a cartel. Although,if a country/organisation(US or EU for example)is powerful enough to do that it does give them an advantage.

J Mysterio

RobMc59 wrote: »

There's a documentary this evening(19.35 BBC1)'Panorama,Brexit six months on'.
In which UK fishermen claim it's easier to send shellfish to China than the EU due to the paperwork required.

What is the conclusion to be reached with this opaque statement?

China good, EU bad?
UK's fault/ EU's fault?

Does this tell you something about why the particular Brexit Johnson and co sought was a form of self harm? e.g. no single market, no customs union and consequent damage to trade.

What would you advocate as a solution to the trade difficulties? 'EU fix it'/ 'don't be so difficult'/ 'just trust us'?

Do you understand why the EU require paperwork? Do you have a view on differing standards between the EU and China, and the UK's nebulous position?

Everyone said that Brexit was going to create difficulties in trade (since 2016 this has been repeatedly made clear), yet here you are, throwing out this half arsed statement like it would be a surprise to anyone at all.

It's simply incredible that Brexiteers (from Sunderland voter John up to Sir. Frost and everywhere in between) are turning around and saying 'hey, we don't like this - change it', when the writing has been on the wall for years as regards the implications of Brexit. We told you.