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Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

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    #5342
    breatheme
    Registered Users Posts: 375 ✭✭breatheme


    A border would not violate the letter of the GFA, but many agree that it would violate the spirit.
    Try waving the GFA around a closed border and saying "see, it doesn't actually break it...".
    The fact is that thanks to the GFA and the ensuing peace, cross-border communities have emerged and started to thrive. People work, live and study on both sides of the border and regularly cross it if not every day, every week.


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    #5343
    Strazdas
    Registered Users Posts: 18,389 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    breatheme wrote: »
    A border would not violate the letter of the GFA, but many agree that it would violate the spirit.
    Try waving the GFA around a closed border and saying "see, it doesn't actually break it...".
    The fact is that thanks to the GFA and the ensuing peace, cross-border communities have emerged and started to thrive. People work, live and study on both sides of the border and regularly cross it if not every day, every week.

    Also, the creation of the Single Market was a big factor in the border being opened in 1993 (no need for any customs or ID checks).

    This part is almost completely brushed aside as being of no importance by those who say that Brexit has no impact on the GFA.


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    #5344
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,055 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Strazdas wrote: »
    Also, the creation of the Single Market was a big factor in the border being opened in 1993 (no need for any customs or ID checks).

    This part is almost completely brushed aside as being of no importance by those who say that Brexit has no impact on the GFA.
    The GFA meant that people could choose to be as Irish or British or whatever as they wanted to be.


    For NI the big benefit of the Single Market was it undermined the smugglers. So removed a lot of funding for illegal groups. No one wants those days back.


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    #5345
    WHL
    Registered Users Posts: 535 ✭✭✭WHL


    Remember when Scotland complained that they wanted the same deal as Northern Ireland (to remain in the U.K. but retain EU links etc). Does Bojo have an opportunity to solve two problems by offering this to Scotland now if they abandon Indyref2. The border would move but presumably Scotland would be more amenable to this if they are looking for independence. Also border checks would no longer be required on the Larne-Stranraer route. Would this allow Scottish fishermen to regain access to the EU market. There is obviously a big issue with this as it doesn’t get mentioned so where does it fall down


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    #5346
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 18,925 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    The EU won't allow it. That's where it falls down.

    Plus there's no way it will be asked for.


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    #5347
    joeysoap
    Registered Users Posts: 6,239 ✭✭✭joeysoap


    A physical land border is simply a no go. Don’t even consider it.


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    #5348
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,055 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Most people in NI are entitled to EU citizenship because of the Irish constitution. From a certain EU point of view this makes it easy to justify treating NI differently.

    Besides Scotland has a much bigger population.


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    #5349
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,363 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    breatheme wrote: »
    A border would not violate the letter of the GFA, but many agree that it would violate the spirit.
    Try waving the GFA around a closed border and saying "see, it doesn't actually break it...".
    The fact is that thanks to the GFA and the ensuing peace, cross-border communities have emerged and started to thrive. People work, live and study on both sides of the border and regularly cross it if not every day, every week.

    The GFA established a whole range of North South Institutions which had mutual recognition on both sides of the 'Border'
    It also established the principle that neither Ireland nor the UK could impose material changes in rights or citizenship that would diminish the rights of any NI community without their consent.

    Imposing border restrictions between NI and ROI would materially prevent Nationalists from conducting cross border trade with the ROI, which is their right as citizens of both ROI and the UK

    The UK can not impose that on Nationalists without consent, however, what the NI protocol actually did,was the UK, imposed restrictions on NI trade with the UK in order to facilitate the Tory Brexit project

    ROI defended the dual citizenship of Northern Irish nationalists (and unionists who wished to continue trading with ROI and the EU) The UK (Tories) betrayed the NI unionists because they decided that leaving the CU and SM were more important to their own interests, than the preservation of the Union between NI and the UK.


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    #5350
    Igotadose
    Registered Users Posts: 13,329 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    The GFA meant that people could choose to be as Irish or British or whatever as they wanted to be.


    For NI the big benefit of the Single Market was it undermined the smugglers. So removed a lot of funding for illegal groups. No one wants those days back.

    Isn't one theory that the Loyalist terrorists group presenting to Parliamentary committees are, in fact, funded by smuggling and drugs, and importation checks due to the Irish Sea checkpoints, put them out of business?


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    #5351
    Enzokk
    Registered Users Posts: 5,625 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    Some news from the EU on the NIP,

    https://twitter.com/NaomiOhReally/status/1397128052736466945?s=20

    So the countries are united in how to deal with the NIP and the UK. The NIP stays and if you want to talk, talk to the EU Commission and not individual nations.

    https://twitter.com/Joe_Mayes/status/1397077795709276160?s=20

    Nothing new here either, the problem isn't the NIP but Brexit. The NIP is the solution to Brexit and will therefore be a blunt instrument.


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    #5352
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,055 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Igotadose wrote: »
    Isn't one theory that the Loyalist terrorists group presenting to Parliamentary committees are, in fact, funded by smuggling and drugs, and importation checks due to the Irish Sea checkpoints, put them out of business?

    Well that's one theory. But it would only impact imports from GB.

    Stuff from EU could come in to Ireland and across the border with no checks.
    Stuff from third countries would have been searched anyway.


    See how many of the 'upsides' are really just border checks which do hinder legit commerce and travel.
    https://yorkshirebylines.co.uk/the-davis-downside-dossier/


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    #5353
    Leroy42
    Registered Users Posts: 15,564 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    correct horse battery staple wrote: »
    Ons released latest report, in short even Covid can’t mask the disaster for trade that Brexit (interestingly they avoid the word and call it Eu exit) has caused https://www.ons.gov.uk/businessindustryandtrade/internationaltrade/articles/theimpactsofeuexitandthecoronavirusonuktradeingoods/2021-05-25

    A lot of people on these threads have now been proven correct

    Interesting that their top of the list of Main points is:
    1.Main points
    Total trade in goods (imports plus exports) from non-EU countries surpassed that from EU countries in Quarter 1 (January to March) 2021.

    If anyone is ever wondering the value of spin that is a perfect example right there.


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    #5354
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I found this to be particularly ironic.

    https://twitter.com/nicktolhurst/status/1397105572068081664

    There are few things less democratic than a UK government with a relegated Parliament. The PM can pack the cabinet and do what they want.


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    #5355
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,365 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    That's mad.
    I guess if parliament is unhappy with parts of the deal then they can just ignore them or renege on it. Seems to be the process they're following in terms of NI.


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    #5356
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,365 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Predictably, Britains trade with the EU is down by 23.1% for the first three months of the year. Trade with Ireland (not sure if NI or IoI) is down by 65.9% (about £300m)...

    https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1397170053255241740


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    #5357
    fash
    Registered Users Posts: 2,272 ✭✭✭fash


    . No more unelected Germans... Who knew the LOC were secretly republicans?


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    #5358
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 18,925 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    They really miss that Unionist veto.

    I love how they think they're speaking for "ALL" the people.

    Gas.

    Also, compatibility with the GFA is irrelevant surely given they've withdrawn support for it?


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    #5359
    HalloweenJack
    Registered Users Posts: 7,119 ✭✭✭HalloweenJack


    The irony of that opening paragraph is delicious.


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    #5360
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 14,368 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    fash wrote: »
    . No more unelected Germans... Who knew the LOC were secretly republicans?

    She was elected to parliament as a German politician and as EU President by the EU Commission. Apart from that, the terrorist is right.


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    #5361
    dogbert27
    Registered Users Posts: 4,925 ✭✭✭dogbert27


    fash wrote: »
    . No more unelected Germans... Who knew the LOC were secretly republicans?

    This is beyond farcical


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    #5362
    mick087
    Registered Users Posts: 1,122 ✭✭✭mick087


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    She was elected to parliament as a German politician and as EU President by the EU Commission. Apart from that, the terrorist is right.

    She was not elected to her position within the EU by its citizens.
    She have never been elected to any position within the EU by its citizens.


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    #5363
    dogbert27
    Registered Users Posts: 4,925 ✭✭✭dogbert27


    mick087 wrote: »
    She was not elected to her position within the EU by its citizens.
    She have never been elected to any position within the EU by its citizens.

    Which is what the poster has actually posted :rolleyes:


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    #5364
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 14,368 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    mick087 wrote: »
    She was not elected to her position within the EU by its citizens.
    She have never been elected to any position within the EU by its citizens.

    She has to be voted in by the Council and the Parliament. Who votes for the politicians who elected her?


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    #5365
    fash
    Registered Users Posts: 2,272 ✭✭✭fash


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    She was elected to parliament as a German politician and as EU President by the EU Commission. Apart from that, the terrorist is right.
    Considering that UvdL was indeed elected, the thought occurred that the "unelected German" could only be a reference to the Saxe-Coburg and Gotha/Battenberg family of unelected Germans - which would of course be rather ironic for a loyalist.


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    #5366
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 14,368 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    fash wrote: »
    Considering that UvdL was indeed elected, the thought occurred that the "unelected German" could only be a reference to the Saxe-Coburg and Gotha/Battenberg family of unelected Germans - which would of course be rather ironic for a loyalist.

    One doesn't have to look very far in Britain to find unelected rulers.


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    #5367
    ath262
    Registered Users Posts: 233 ✭✭ath262


    including the chief unelected bureaucrat in all this, a certain Mr. Frost


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    #5368
    mick087
    Registered Users Posts: 1,122 ✭✭✭mick087


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    One doesn't have to look very far in Britain to find unelected rulers.

    Yes the dangers of having undetected but appointed people with power.


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    #5369
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 14,368 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    mick087 wrote: »
    Yes the dangers of having undetected but appointed people with power.

    Undetected? Spies?


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    #5370
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,549 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    mick087 wrote: »
    Yes the dangers of having undetected but appointed people with power.

    They used to be called Civil Servants, but under this crowd - not any longer do Civil Servants have any power left - just like MPs.


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    #5371
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,331 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    mick087 wrote: »
    She was not elected to her position within the EU by its citizens.
    Nor was Lord Frost elected to his position within the UK by its citizens. Nor Boris Johnson. Nor the Queen.

    In fact, I can't think of anybody on the UK side, at any level, with any executive responsibility for the delivery of Brexit, who was elected by the citizens to the post which gives them that responsibility. I personally don't see this as a problem but if the Loyalist Community Council does then they need to be a bit less one-eyed about it.


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