Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

Nody

Sam Russell wrote: »

Would Australian beef not be frozen to travel that far?

It would at least need specialist transport.

Yup, exact same way a lot of meat gets sent to China for butchering, packaging and then returns here.

Sam Russell

Nody wrote: »

Yup, exact same way a lot of meat gets sent to China for butchering, packaging and then returns here.

How can that be?

Surely if it was brought in from China it would be subject to tariffs and SPS controls.

I assume you are talking about Ireland.

joeysoap

He didn't specify, just said he couldn't see it.

Nody

Sam Russell wrote: »

How can that be?

Surely if it was brought in from China it would be subject to tariffs and SPS controls.

I assume you are talking about Ireland.

If you export something out (say sugar content in a cookies) you get a credit for said tariffs you can use to offset imports of an equal amount since you've reduced the quantity on the EU market. Hence in the cookie example you'd get to import X tons of sugar for tariff free as offset. It was mentioned in an article about Danish bacon exported to China to be cut (sent carcasses frozen) and then packaged and returned being cheaper compared to doing it locally but can't find a copy of it now but the meat would already have meet EU standards in the first place and is simply returned chopped up (hence SPS controls would be limited I guess).

Sam Russell

Nody wrote: »

If you export something out (say sugar content in a cookies) you get a credit for said tariffs you can use to offset imports of an equal amount since you've reduced the quantity on the EU market. Hence in the cookie example you'd get to import X tons of sugar for tariff free as offset. It was mentioned in an article about Danish bacon exported to China to be cut (sent carcasses frozen) and then packaged and returned being cheaper compared to doing it locally but can't find a copy of it now but the meat would already have meet EU standards in the first place and is simply returned chopped up (hence SPS controls would be limited I guess).

If that is the system, then it is daft.

The meat may comply when it leaves, but what controls what happens while it is out of sight of the EU? It might not even be the same meat.

joeysoap

Sounds so weird that’s it’s undoubtably true. Nothing that prohibitive carbon tax couldn’t cure.

J Mysterio

Government ‘devoid of compassion and competence’ over English Channel crossings as numbers double

There was a process agreed amongst EU countries for returning asylum seekers to countries which they passed through.

As UK has left the EU, that agreement does not apply, and EU countries have no reason at all to agree to such a deal with the UK.

The government has said repeatedly that it will negotiate bilateral agreements to replace a Europe-wide mechanism that the UK left during the Brexit process, but several EU nations have said they have no intention of striking such deals.

Another Brexit dividend.

My heart bleeds for Patel.

BonnieSituation

With #brexiteffect trending tonight after their shambolic result in the Eurovision, isn't that just a damning indictment in their engagement with the political process the last 5 years.

Up there with "What's is the EU?" after the vote.

ancapailldorcha

Mod: Please do not dump links here. Post removed.

Leroy42

Liz Truss has called for “border controls and paperwork” to be scrapped on Irish Sea trade, risking a fresh clash with the EU over the Northern Ireland Protocol.

Asked if the government’s aim is to remove all red tape – despite those checks being agreed by Boris Johnson in his Brexit deal – the trade secretary replied: “Absolutely, yes.”

. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-liz-truss-border-irish-sea-b1852690.html

So in one line Truss has dissed the PM by very clearly stating that the deal he signed and championed is now one which the UK needs to get out of and is working 100% towards getting out of.

And once again, there really is a simply solution to all of this. Renter the SM and CU across the UK. Simple. The UK have a problem and want everyone else to change to sort if out for them, when the solution is staring them in the face.

View

Leroy42 wrote: »

. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-liz-truss-border-irish-sea-b1852690.html

So in one line Truss has dissed the PM by very clearly stating that the deal he signed and championed is now one which the UK needs to get out of and is working 100% towards getting out of.

And once again, there really is a simply solution to all of this. Renter the SM and CU across the UK. Simple. The UK have a problem and want everyone else to change to sort if out for them, when the solution is staring them in the face.

The simple solution is to put up a physical land border since it was fairly clear that the Conservatives never had any real intention of implementing the NI protocol.

Leroy42

View wrote: »

The simple solution is to put up a physical land border since it was fairly clear that the Conservatives never had any real intention of implementing the NI protocol.

You think that is a simpler solution than going back into the SM and CU?

Quite apart from the actual operation of the border, it then drags up the entire NI problem, not to mention the UK having serious issues with the US and the EU.

It the easiest headline and the easier politically to sell, in the short term but the reason the UK hasn't done it to date is that even Brexiteers know the disaster that it involves.

There's a reason it is called a trilemma, there are no simple solutions. None.

This is a circle that can't be squared, and the pareto agreement sees all sides lose.

dogbert27

View wrote: »

The simple solution is to put up a physical land border since it was fairly clear that the Conservatives never had any real intention of implementing the NI protocol.

Breaking the GFA is the simple solution?!

Putting a hard border on the island is exactly the reason why this is a complex issue.

I'll be waiting for Boris' next great idea of "build that wall!"

Sam Russell

dogbert27 wrote: »

Breaking the GFA is the simple solution?!

Putting a hard border on the island is exactly the reason why this is a complex issue.

I'll be waiting for Boris' next great idea of "build that wall!"

I hope it is Hadrian's Wall you are talking about!

CelticRambler

The real "simple" solution would be for the UK to agree to remain aligned with EU SPS rules for the next (pick-a-number) years. Voilà, almost all of the NI/Irish Sea problems evaporate, and a good number of the English Channel problems too. Despite there being almost no financial downside to this, Johnson&Co have chosen to sacrifice gestures of goodwill on the international stage in favour of saving face in front of their domestic audience.

Professor Moriarty

CelticRambler wrote: »

The real "simple" solution would be for the UK to agree to remain aligned with EU SPS rules for the next (pick-a-number) years. Voilà, almost all of the NI/Irish Sea problems evaporate, and a good number of the English Channel problems too. Despite there being almost no financial downside to this, Johnson&Co have chosen to sacrifice gestures of goodwill on the international stage in favour of saving face in front of their domestic audience.

It's a problem of their own making. They have convinced their voters that the EU is evil. Now they're are being hoisted by their own petard.

Seth Brundle

The knowledge defecit continues as the UK's European Scrutiny Committee learns that EU members cannot create bilateral deals with other countries...

https://twitter.com/jude5456/status/1396789209063641093

CelticRambler

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

It's a problem of their own making. They have convinced their voters that the EU is evil. Now they're are being hoisted by their own petard.

Let's be clear: the petards would be quite happy to be left alone, but Johnson and Co insist on lighting the fuses. To think that they burnt poor ol' Guy Fawkes for trying to blow up the HoP, and now it seems that blowing up the whole country is the patriotic thing to do! :pac:

Akrasia

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

It's a problem of their own making. They have convinced their voters that the EU is evil. Now they're are being hoisted by their own petard.

They've also promised to 'take back control' which doesn't really marry well with being a rule taker who has to maintain alignment with EU standards without any input into how those standards are set

The only 'benefit' brexiteers can claim is that the UK is now 'sovereign' and can negotiate it's own trade deals . If they had to maintain standards with the EU, this would prevent them from signing any trade deals involving goods that do not meet EU standards

Akrasia

Seth Brundle wrote: »

The knowledge defecit continues as the UK's European Scrutiny Committee learns that EU members cannot create bilateral deals with other countries...

https://twitter.com/jude5456/status/1396789209063641093

It's baffling that they think, simultaneously that they had to leave the EU to strike their own trade deals, while also thinking other EU members can negotiate bilateral trade deals while remaining in the EU

Doublethink is alive and well in Orwell's homeland

Professor Moriarty

Akrasia wrote: »

They've also promised to 'take back control' which doesn't really marry well with being a rule taker who has to maintain alignment with EU standards without any input into how those standards are set

The only 'benefit' brexiteers can claim is that the UK is now 'sovereign' and can negotiate it's own trade deals . If they had to maintain standards with the EU, this would prevent them from signing any trade deals involving goods that do not meet EU standards

They can also now control immigration. Well, they could before when in the EU but chose not to control it. And they can't in future because countries such as India are demanding increased access for their citizens as part of any FTAs. But look over there.

Sam Russell

Akrasia wrote: »

It's baffling that they think, simultaneously that they had to leave the EU to strike their own trade deals, while also thinking other EU members can negotiate bilateral trade deals while remaining in the EU

Doublethink is alive and well in Orwell's homeland

They are way past 1984.

Even Orwell did not think this much dystopia would arrive in his homeland.

CelticRambler

Seth Brundle wrote: »

The knowledge defecit continues as the UK's European Scrutiny Committee learns that EU members cannot create bilateral deals with other countries...

https://twitter.com/jude5456/status/1396789209063641093

Some lovely responses to that tweet - especially the extrapolation that we (the EU) should by the same logic, be able to negotiate separate deals with Scotland and Wales!

fly_agaric

Seth Brundle wrote: »

The knowledge defecit continues as the UK's European Scrutiny Committee learns that EU members cannot create bilateral deals with other countries...

https://twitter.com/jude5456/status/1396789209063641093

Don't think it (this sort of "confusion" about the EU role) is as funny as people make out sometimes really.
Frost or the UK govt. etc. know well what they are at. They are not completely ignorant. It is an insidious delegitimisation tactic similar to their (abandoned) effort at denying the EU ambassador recognition. The prior US govt. did the same things (trying to negotiate with member states bilaterally, cutting out the EU and refusing to recognise EU officials) so it is all of a piece.

View

Leroy42 wrote: »

You think that is a simpler solution than going back into the SM and CU?

Quite apart from the actual operation of the border, it then drags up the entire NI problem, not to mention the UK having serious issues with the US and the EU.

It the easiest headline and the easier politically to sell, in the short term but the reason the UK hasn't done it to date is that even Brexiteers know the disaster that it involves.

Brexit Britain isn’t going back into the SM and CU. That’s politically dead in the water right now.

Hence, our question has to be “How do we protect our position as a member of the EU?”

View

dogbert27 wrote: »

Breaking the GFA is the simple solution?!

Putting a hard border on the island is exactly the reason why this is a complex issue.

I'll be waiting for Boris' next great idea of "build that wall!"

Try actually reading the GFA.

There is nothing in it that says we can’t have a physical border between the RoI and NI.

There are in fact only four mentions with the word border in it and they are references to stuff like “cross border cooperation”.

View

[Deleted User] wrote: »

There's a reason it is called a trilemma, there are no simple solutions. None.

This is a circle that can't be squared, and the pareto agreement sees all sides lose.

Correct. And our goal has to be to protect our position in the EU and minimise the damage to us from the erratic decisions of Brexit Britain (including those that effect NI).

Leroy42

View wrote: »

Try actually reading the GFA.

There is nothing in it that says we can’t have a physical border between the RoI and NI.

There are in fact only four mentions with the word border in it and they are references to stuff like “cross border cooperation”.

And yet the EU, the UK and the USA all agree that a border would go against the GFA.

Whether a solution is acceptable is different to whether it is the simplest.

The UK have deemed it unacceptable to go with a return to SM/CU, but doesn't doesn't absolve of them of the responsibility for turning their noses up at the simplest solution.

Therefore, any time the Uk 'demand' the EU help resolve the issues, the 1st question should be why the UK is not taking the most straightforward solution. We don't want to is a perfectly valid response, but it simply highlights that all the issues are actually the UK making and the EU bear no responsibility for any of this mess.

Strazdas

View wrote: »

Try actually reading the GFA.

There is nothing in it that says we can’t have a physical border between the RoI and NI.

There are in fact only four mentions with the word border in it and they are references to stuff like “cross border cooperation”.

That's because the idea of the UK withdrawing from the EU would have seemed utterly preposterous to everyone in 1998. Labour and Blair had just been elected to a landslide win and Farage was an unknown, irrelevant crank.

Also, Article 50 didn't even exist at the time and wouldn't even be written for another decade.