Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

Leroy42

There won't be any row, UK can do what it likes as a sovereign.

Of course it won't help them attract workers and tourists if they treat them like that, but a story like that plays out very well with Brexit supporters. Politically, well domestically at least, it a winner so expect more stories

Pandiculation

It’s likely to play out reciprocally in certain continental European countries. Cue outrage in UK papers when someone gets detained and deported from France for example.

Will they be aware of or care that it’s how they’re treating EU citizens entering the UK? Unlikely, as exceptionalism applies: expats vs immigrants etc.

Pandiculation

The issue is that it’s basically now as complicated for an EU national to move to the UK as to the USA. So if you’re going to recruit someone you’d want to be offering something as attractive as a US recruiter. It’s going to be all the hassle of visas, work permits, paths to naturalisation, difficulty getting visas for partners, children, inability to potentially look after elderly relatives - moving your widowed, retired mom over from Germany may not be possible. Even having her over to babysit for a few months might need a work permit.

It’s gone from the equivalent of moving from Hamburg to Berlin to being a huge ordeal with messy bureaucratic burdens and a lot of people won’t see it as sufficiently attractive to bother.

Unlike a move to the US, it’s a physically small country with limited options, not most of a continent. It has an ok lifestyle but nothing to write home about and the politics has turned toxic towards immigration and integration.

So I’m really not sure what it’s offering.

Also if you’re moving to the UK from somewhere other than Europe, the loss of potential pathways to EU citizenship and access to the whole continent is a major disincentive.
It was offering access to one of the most developed parts of the world and a vast array of opportunities and options for you or your kids. Now it’s just the UK and with the way Scotland is headed, could even just be England.

mick087

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

I’ve been telling recruiters for uk positions why would I bother (I’m in stem area with multiple degrees and long experience) for years now as it’s not an attractive place. Now can politely link above article tho I suppose it doesn’t really apply to us in Ireland until Boris goes back on cta like he done for other treaties to now.

The UK have respected the CTR throughout the pandemic.

We have not respected the common travel during the pandemic.

BonnieSituation

mick087 wrote: »

The UK have respected the CTR throughout the pandemic.

We have not respected the common travel during the pandemic.

How have we not respected it?

yagan

mick087 wrote: »

The UK have respected the CTR throughout the pandemic.

We have not respected the common travel during the pandemic.

Can you link the treaty or agreement as to how the CTR operates?

I've looked before but all I've found is that it's recognized as an ad hoc fluid arrangement recognised as existing alongside but not instead of Schengen.

The residency rights in eachother's countries are pieces of domestic law independent of eachother and only Northern Ireland denizens are covered by dual rights under the GFA, which is lodged with the UN security council.

There is no CTA manual to consult regarding how the CTA operates.

reslfj

yagan wrote: »

Can you link the treaty or agreement as to how the CTR operates?
...

These links could be a starting point. (same info is available on gov.uk web)

Lars

https://www.dfa.ie/brexit/getting-ireland-brexit-ready/brexit-and-you/common-travel-area/

https://www.dfa.ie/media/dfa/eu/brexit/brexitandyou/Memorandum-of-Understanding-Ire-version.pdf

https://www.dfa.ie/media/dfa/eu/brexit/brexitandyou/Joint-Statement-CTA.pdf

yagan

reslfj wrote: »

These links could be a starting point. (same info is available on gov.uk web)

Lars

https://www.dfa.ie/brexit/getting-ireland-brexit-ready/brexit-and-you/common-travel-area/

https://www.dfa.ie/media/dfa/eu/brexit/brexitandyou/Memorandum-of-Understanding-Ire-version.pdf

https://www.dfa.ie/media/dfa/eu/brexit/brexitandyou/Joint-Statement-CTA.pdf

I've seen those descriptions of what of the CTA is, but I've never found the legal text governing how it operates, how problem are resolved etc...

Got anything actually binding other the rights of NI denizens under the GFA?

Akrasia

ilovesmybrick wrote: »

EU citizens arriving in UK being locked up and expelled

This just strikes me as ridiculously over the top from the UK government. I know it doesn't apply to me as an Irish citizen, but I looked at their points system a few months ago and would probably come out 10 points short, since my PhD isn't in STEM. It is an incredibly high bar to entry and is bound to exclude the majority of EU workers in the UK that keep their economy ticking over. I'm presuming that Nurses would be on the shortage list so would qualify, but I'm going to presume that care workers and a wide variety of other critical, yet under appreciated (and under paid) rolls that are being propped up by non UK workers are not included.

I'm going to presume that the numbers currently being caught up in this reactoin are quite low due to travel restrictions, but once everything begins to return to normalcy I can see a massive row developing between the EU and UK over such treatment of EU nationals, especially when it seems to be one way.

This is a serious escalation, and I think this is in reaction to the EU taking sandwiches from truck drivers because of customs checks on agricultural products

Problem is, taking a sandwich because of an honest mistake is definitely not the same as locking up a human being for the same reason

Akrasia

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

I’ve been telling recruiters for uk positions why would I bother (I’m in stem area with multiple degrees and long experience) for years now as it’s not an attractive place. Now can politely link above article tho I suppose it doesn’t really apply to us in Ireland until Boris goes back on cta like he done for other treaties to now.

Me too. Even if I was thinking of moving jobs, the offer would need to be incredibly attractive for me to choose a UK based job compared with an alternative

Akrasia

mick087 wrote: »

The UK have respected the CTR throughout the pandemic.

We have not respected the common travel during the pandemic.

There is nothing called the CTR to be respected

And Ireland have in fact fully respected the CTA as much as we could have, even when the UK was running rampant with Covid last year we kept the blatant loophole in NI open and kept flights between Irl and the Uk operational

View

yagan wrote: »

I've seen those descriptions of what of the CTA is, but I've never found the legal text governing how it operates, how problem are resolved etc...

Got anything actually binding other the rights of NI denizens under the GFA?

The CTA functions on the basis that our government acts as the Dublin sub-region of the U.K. - much like NI only we never say “No” to London. London always holds the trump card of cancelling the CTA which is utterly unthinkable here, whereas it is perfectly thinkable for them since almost no voters in GB would even notice were it to happen.

jimmycrackcorm

Akrasia wrote: »

There is nothing called the CTR to be respected

And Ireland have in fact fully respected the CTA as much as we could have, even when the UK was running rampant with Covid last year we kept the blatant loophole in NI open and kept flights between Irl and the Uk operational

When the IRA was running the bombing campaign in GB, The British didn't cancel the CTA, and this was back when they had RUC/BA checks crossing the border.

Peregrinus

View wrote: »

The CTA functions on the basis that our government acts as the Dublin sub-region of the U.K. - much like NI only we never say “No” to London. London always holds the trump card of cancelling the CTA which is utterly unthinkable here, whereas it is perfectly thinkable for them since almost no voters in GB would even notice were it to happen.

There are more than a million people who identify as Irish citizens who live and vote in NI. They would certainly notice. And there are nearly another million who live and vote in GB; they too would notice.

The UK suspended the Common Travel Arrangement in 1939 and imposed controls on people travelling between Ireland (both parts) and GB (though no controls on NI-RoI travel). In common with many other wartime restrictions, it was well into the 1950s before the CTA was fully restored. Since then, however, there has never been any question of terminating it, either on the Irish side or on the British.

Peregrinus

Akrasia wrote: »

This is a serious escalation, and I think this is in reaction to the EU taking sandwiches from truck drivers because of customs checks on agricultural products

Problem is, taking a sandwich because of an honest mistake is definitely not the same as locking up a human being for the same reason

It's not a reaction to the sandwich issue. This is how the UK normally treats people who would need a visa to work in the UK, and who arrive without a visa in circumstances which suggest that they intend to seek work. EU citizens aren't being singled out here; they are just being treated like other visa-required non-UK-citizens.

What you need to understand is that UK immigration practices are, as a matter of policy, systematically vindictive and cruel. They see this as a way of discouraging irregular migration.

Peregrinus

yagan wrote: »

Can you link the treaty or agreement as to how the CTR operates? . . .

There is no treaty. The CTA is basically a well-established but voluntary practice of co-ordinating certain border and migration policies between the UK and Irish governments. It can be wholly or partly terminated by either side at any time without any violation of legal obligations, since neither side is legally obliged to maintain it. It subsists only so long as both sides want it, but both sides have powerful reasons of self-interest for wanting it.

Pandiculation

The reality of the situation is the “Hostile Environment” stuff is every bit as bad as it sounds and simply hasn’t been targeted at people with a voice before.

You’re going to see it come under a lot or scrutiny, but it will also be reciprocal as many British citizens have also never before experienced various continental immigration systems, which can be very unpleasant and bureaucratic too.

There’s a rather nasty reality check due for anyone caught in the middle of this as the simple facts of the situation is established rights to freedom of movement have been removed and extinguished by Brexit.

The pandemic has hidden some of this but I think as the vaccines impact opens UK & EU society by the end of the summer, those realities will become very clear.

There’s a big political and diplomatic fallout that will inevitably come from this.

CelticRambler

Akrasia wrote: »

Problem is, taking a sandwich because of an honest mistake is definitely not the same as locking up a human being for the same reason

There's no "honest mistake" involved in confiscating sandwiches. If they contain ham, cheese, butter, or any other ingredients of animal origin, they are subject to the same import controls as any other product. The UK deliberately decided on a policy of non-alignment of SPS standards and controls, with the effect - well signposted in advance - that all their agriproduce would be considered non-conforming from 1st January. Anyone who wants to import a ham sandwich can do so using the proper protocol. There'd be no difference if you tried to bring it into the US or Australia.

Peregrinus

CelticRambler wrote: »

There's no "honest mistake" involved in confiscating sandwiches. If they contain ham, cheese, butter, or any other ingredients of animal origin, they are subject to the same import controls as any other product. The UK deliberately decided on a policy of non-alignment of SPS standards and controls, with the effect - well signposted in advance - that all their agriproduce would be considered non-conforming from 1st January. Anyone who wants to import a ham sandwich can do so using the proper protocol. There'd be no difference if you tried to bring it into the US or Australia.

Here in Australia, there are squads of beagles at the international airports who - with their handlers - patrol the luggage carousels to sniff out any fresh food you may have in your luggage, so that it can be confiscated and destroyed. They're very cute, but also very effective. When I was travelling with an infant once, a beagle detected a still-sealed jar of pureed baby food, wrapped in plastic, buried in a suitcase.

peter kern

Pandiculation wrote: »

The reality of the situation is the “Hostile Environment” stuff is every bit as bad as it sounds and simply hasn’t been targeted at people with a voice before.

You’re going to see it come under a lot or scrutiny, but it will also be reciprocal as many British citizens have also never before experienced various continental immigration systems, which can be very unpleasant and bureaucratic too.

There’s a rather nasty reality check due for anyone caught in the middle of this as the simple facts of the situation is established rights to freedom of movement have been removed and extinguished by Brexit.

The pandemic has hidden some of this but I think as the vaccines impact opens UK & EU society by the end of the summer, those realities will become very clear.

There’s a big political and diplomatic fallout that will inevitably come from this.

I am not so sure there will be a big political fallout from the practice , since this happens also quite frequently in the Schengen area where asian looking people are treaded not correctly for instance , by border migration people that have a bad day . You would be surprised how many border control people in the Eu do not know what is a Taiwanese passport for instance.

BonnieSituation

Peregrinus wrote: »

Here in Australia, there are squads of beagles at the international airports who - with their handlers - patrol the luggage carousels to sniff out any fresh food you may have in your luggage, so that it can be confiscated and destroyed. They're very cute, but also very effective. When I was travelling with an infant once, a beagle detected a still-sealed jar of pureed baby food, wrapped in plastic, buried in a suitcase.

The signs in Melbourne Airport Arrivals had me so in a tizzy I binned my m&m's.

Even travelling cross country on a train they have the fruit fly exclusion zone, so stuff had to be binned as we went from SA to WA (iirc). They don't mess around.

mick087

Akrasia wrote: »

There is nothing called the CTR to be respected

And Ireland have in fact fully respected the CTA as much as we could have, even when the UK was running rampant with Covid last year we kept the blatant loophole in NI open and kept flights between Irl and the Uk operational

Correct there is no such thing called the CTR. Apologizes.

I believe our government was correct in actions taken with CTA, i would not have a criticism of this. "Respected as much as they could is" not actually respecting the agreement. We did not fully respect the CTA.

The UK did fully respect the CTA


That loophole is still open.

mick087

yagan wrote: »

Can you link the treaty or agreement as to how the CTR operates?

I've looked before but all I've found is that it's recognized as an ad hoc fluid arrangement recognised as existing alongside but not instead of Schengen.

The residency rights in eachother's countries are pieces of domestic law independent of eachother and only Northern Ireland denizens are covered by dual rights under the GFA, which is lodged with the UN security council.

There is no CTA manual to consult regarding how the CTA operates.

Yes i believe you are correct there is no said legal manual.

After decades of the CTA and no issues i can recall i see no reason we need one if both parties fully respect what the CTA represents.

Even though there is no legal manual i will stick to my view we did not fully respect the CTA.

This is no criticism by our elected government i do believe they was correct.

Peregrinus

Because the CTA is not defined anywhere in detail, whether one side or other is "fully respecting" the CTA is often a matter of opinion. Immigration rules and practices on both sides are constantly being tweaked, and objections that particular tweaks do not respect the CTA (or "the spirit of the CTA") are a fairly frequent occurrence. The two sides talk, they come to some arrangement, they muddle through. The CTA is nothing if not flexible.

For example in 1997 the Irish government introduced identity checks on air passengers coming from the UK, and partial checks on sea passengers and people crossing the land border. These are still in operation. There are no checks operated by the UK authorities on people going in the other direction. At the time people commented that this was not really consistent with the CTA, but the UK has not objected.

Earlier on, the UK used to require Prevention of Terrorism Act declarations from everyone arriving in GB from Ireland (north or south), and people could be detained for examination. That, too, was seen as an infringement of the CTA. The Irish government did object, if I recall correctly, but the UK continued to operate the checks and examinations until after the IRA ceasefires (and UK legislation under which they could be operated remains in place).

yagan

mick087 wrote: »

Even though there is no legal manual i will stick to my view we did not fully respect the CTA.

So what? London never consulted Dublin or Belfast when it withdrew the CTA to the Irish Sea for nearly two decades. During that time when the CTA was in the Irish Sea the Republic of Ireland act was passed in Westminster which defined Irish citizens in Britain as non foreign and to this day that status remains without reference to any common travel area arrangements.

The only people with clearly defined dual residency rights under international treaty are denizens of Northern Ireland and those rights will continue regardless of London withdrawing the CTA to the Irish Sea again, which I actually think is inevitable.

So again tell me again precisely why you think or feel has Ireland didn't respect an ad hoc arrangement that London has demonstrated is not legally binding?

Akrasia

CelticRambler wrote: »

There's no "honest mistake" involved in confiscating sandwiches. If they contain ham, cheese, butter, or any other ingredients of animal origin, they are subject to the same import controls as any other product. The UK deliberately decided on a policy of non-alignment of SPS standards and controls, with the effect - well signposted in advance - that all their agriproduce would be considered non-conforming from 1st January. Anyone who wants to import a ham sandwich can do so using the proper protocol. There'd be no difference if you tried to bring it into the US or Australia.

I was referring to a truck driver bringing a packed lunch that includes controlled ingredients as the honest mistake (in contrast to a deliberate sandwich smuggling operation)

joeysoap

If the Cta ‘ceased’ to exist would we be free’ to join Schengen?

Do passengers arriving from UK have to go through passport control at Dublin Airport?

Strazdas

joeysoap wrote: »

If the Cta ‘ceased’ to exist would we be free’ to join Schengen?

Do passengers arriving from UK have to go through passport control at Dublin Airport?

They do indeed : you must show your passport or similar photo ID when coming or going to the UK.

yagan

joeysoap wrote: »

If the Cta ‘ceased’ to exist would we be free’ to join Schengen?

Do passengers arriving from UK have to go through passport control at Dublin Airport?

As is we've been sharing information on the Schengen SIS since March.

Detritus70

yagan wrote: »

As is we've been sharing information on the Schengen SIS since March.

Poots will turn the clock back at least 100 years and appeal to hardliners only.
This is definitely not about building bridges.
So, outvote them, marginalise them and work towards reunification.
This will have to be done without the DUP