Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

Sam Russell

joeysoap wrote: »

If the Cta ‘ceased’ to exist would we be free’ to join Schengen?

We could join Schengen if NI joined at the same time as there can be no passport checks between NI and here.

Do passengers arriving from UK have to go through passport control at Dublin Airport?

All passengers arriving at Dublin Airport must pass through immigration. An Irish citizen (and presumably a UK citizen can show acceptable ID such as a photo driving licence. Now since airlines such as Ryanair only accept passports as id for flights this has not proved a problem. I have no experience of other Irish airports or ferry ports.

The layout of Dublin Airport is such that flights from the UK are mixed in with flights from other origins so all passengers are directed through immigration, so currently that is the way it is. In most airports within Schengen, flights from Schengen are segregated from other flights.

yagan

Detritus70 wrote: »

Poots will turn the clock back at least 100 years and appeal to hardliners only.
This is definitely not about building bridges.
So, outvote them, marginalise them and work towards reunification.
This will have to be done without the DUP

Poot's personal beliefs may appease christian fundamentalists grassroots but it does push moderate voters from traditional unionists area towards centrist secular advocates.

Plus after the British acknowledgement for the murder of innocent civilians at Ballymurphy the unionist siege mentality becomes harder to sustain if the nation they appeal to for succour no longer upholds the fight.

Amnesties for British soldiers is as much an assertion of the British attitudes of NI being a troublesome colonial legacy rather than part of the homeland.

Poot's elevation may make things easier politically because everytime he rattles the cage it is much easier to dismiss as religiously driven.

Enzokk

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

You are entitled to your beliefs, you also have free speech (tho not really in uk where Tories cancelled peaceful protest lately) but you can not expect/demand respect “because wisdom of crowds”

Just on this little bit, the UK government want to ensure you have the right to free speech. It is the protesting to that right that they want to stop. So this government that brought you Brexit will also bring you laws that protects a Holocaust denier speaking at a University by throwing those that oppose this untrue, hurtful and ridiculous view in jail for being too loud. These guys are are still in charge of the relationship with the EU.

Respect their views? That passed the moment their lies were laid bare. If anyone is wondering which one, £350m per week on a big bus.

fash

Enzokk wrote: »

So this government that brought you Brexit will also bring you laws that protects a Holocaust denier speaking at a University by throwing those that oppose this untrue, hurtful and ridiculous view in jail for being too loud.

Ah yes- but they will also prosecute the university if it facilitates anti-Semitism- so that's all right then.

joeysoap

My ‘memory’ of passport control (T1) is of everyone arriving together as then separating into EU and non EU. Will UK Passengers have to join the non EU queue or be allowed under the cta to just pass through? Logically under the cta they will disembark ‘preclearance’ and just walk to the carousels etc ie the same as operates at American airports with flights from Dublin ( or is that an Elephant in the room?)

moon2

joeysoap wrote: »

My ‘memory’ of passport control (T1) is of everyone arriving together as then separating into EU and non EU. Will UK Passengers have to join the non EU queue or be allowed under the cta to just pass through? Logically under the cta they will disembark ‘preclearance’ and just walk to the carousels etc ie the same as operates at American airports with flights from Dublin ( or is that an Elephant in the room?)

On arrival in Ireland, UK, Irish and EU citizens should continue to proceed through the “EU/EEA/CH and UK” immigration channel at Passport Control. All passengers arriving from UK destinations should use the Green Customs Channel (rather than the Blue Channel). If you need to make a Customs declaration you should use the Red Customs Channel.

From https://www.dfa.ie/brexit/getting-ireland-brexit-ready/brexit-and-you/frequently-asked-questions/

UK arrivals have to use the non-EU channel for customs. The CTA means UK citizens have a right to enter without needing a visa. They'll still be eligible for a customs check.

Irish arrivals to the US who have gone through preclearance do not undergo customs checks on arrival, so we're 'better off' than the UK arrivals into Ireland in that respect.

Professor Moriarty

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

https://outline.com/JL8GVp

Loads of figures there but in short while rest of world is recovering from Covid and trade resuming UK is not.

In meantime a third wave is likely and could overwhelm hospitals despite vaccinations
https://www.politics.co.uk/week-in-review/2021/05/14/week-in-review-the-blame-for-the-indian-variant-lays-at-johnsons-door/
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/14/india-covid-variant-could-lead-to-third-wave-uk

Tories are riding high now but imho it won’t last

I would disagree. Such is the uselessness of the opposition, the Tories have nothing to worry about.

mick087

yagan wrote: »

So what? London never consulted Dublin or Belfast when it withdrew the CTA to the Irish Sea for nearly two decades. During that time when the CTA was in the Irish Sea the Republic of Ireland act was passed in Westminster which defined Irish citizens in Britain as non foreign and to this day that status remains without reference to any common travel area arrangements.

The only people with clearly defined dual residency rights under international treaty are denizens of Northern Ireland and those rights will continue regardless of London withdrawing the CTA to the Irish Sea again, which I actually think is inevitable.

So again tell me again precisely why you think or feel has Ireland didn't respect an ad hoc arrangement that London has demonstrated is not legally binding?

You are correct in what you say but i have not said legally binding i have stated respected.

During the pandemic the UK elected government have respected the CTA our elected Irish Government did not respect the CTA.

You have said about the loophole in the north, so you don't need me to tell you precisely why i think we did not respect the CTA.

Leo Varadkar vowed to fully restore the Common Travel Area between Ireland and the UK in the coming weeks. This has been all over the news.

BonnieSituation

mick087 wrote: »

You are correct in what you say but i have not said legally binding i have stated respected.

During the pandemic the UK elected government have respected the CTA our elected Irish Government did not respect the CTA.

You have said about the loophole in the north, so you don't need me to tell you precisely why i think we did not respect the CTA.

Leo Varadkar vowed to fully restore the Common Travel Area between Ireland and the UK in the coming weeks. This has been all over the news.

You were asked to tell us how it was "disrespected"?

mick087

BonnieSituation wrote: »

You were asked to tell us how it was "disrespected"?

UK citizens not allowed to travel to Ireland during the pandemic
We was allowed to travel to the UK as normal.
Hence the loophole.

yagan

mick087 wrote: »

UK citizens not allowed to travel to Ireland during the pandemic
We was allowed to travel to the UK as normal.
Hence the loophole.

Did you think Ireland disrespectful by not matching the UKs covid death rate?

Was Ireland being disrespectful towards the UK by shutting down sooner?

mick087

yagan wrote: »

Did you think Ireland disrespectful by not matching the UKs covid death rate?

Was Ireland being disrespectful towards the UK by shutting down sooner?

The UK death rate like most of Europe is a disgrace.
I would also caution about death rate tables.

I believe our elected government was correct not to respect the CTA as i have stated many times.

In my opinion Ireland was correct to shut down and took the correct action in not respecting the CTA.

PeadarCo

mick087 wrote: »

UK citizens not allowed to travel to Ireland during the pandemic
We was allowed to travel to the UK as normal.
Hence the loophole.

Are you aware that there were restrictions on Irish people that limited the mobility of large portions of the population to within 5km of their homes for a significant portion of the last 12 months? UK citizens have been allowed to travel to Ireland throughout the pandemic. Has there been more conditions yes but that's been no different to any living in the country itself. If you crossed over from Northern Ireland you will have risked running into a garda checkpoint. But again that's an issue everyone in the country has faced.

CelticRambler

mick087 wrote: »

UK citizens not allowed to travel to Ireland during the pandemic
We was allowed to travel to the UK as normal.
Hence the loophole.

UK - what UK? The border between Scotland and England was closed for a long time. The border between Wales and England was closed too, to travellers from England, and only yesterday the Welsh First Minister said that Wales will prohibit travellers from England entering the country if the English don't get the spread of the Indian Covid variant under control.

Along the same lines, the borders between various EU countries are closed, despite our EU membership guaranteeing Freedom of Movement.

Your argument about the Irish government respecting or disrespecting the CTA makes no sense whatsoever. And do you seriously think that the British government was "respecting" the CTA, rather than being simply incompetent - like their recent dithering and delaying over prohibiting people entering from India, despite the raging pandemic there?

BonnieSituation

mick087 wrote: »

UK citizens not allowed to travel to Ireland during the pandemic
We was allowed to travel to the UK as normal.
Hence the loophole.

That's not true.

And even if it was, why does it matter?

beggars_bush

mick087 wrote: »

UK citizens not allowed to travel to Ireland during the pandemic
We was allowed to travel to the UK as normal.
Hence the loophole.

They've always been allowed to travel

Otherwise thousands of workers couldn't cross the border every day

wexfordman2

mick087 wrote: »

UK citizens not allowed to travel to Ireland during the pandemic
We was allowed to travel to the UK as normal.
Hence the loophole.

Ah, so, it was all in your head so.

Thanks for the clarification.

J Mysterio

This is just awful. Resonates personally for me also as have similar situation in my family. How can they treat people like this? UK citizens who have spent a majority of their lives in the UK: contributing with their energy, taxes etc.

https://twitter.com/BettsHelen/status/1393831439158976513?s=20

Today 'Lord' Frost saying EU not reciprocating UK desire for friendly relations. I mean really.

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1393895300130017283?s=20

Enzokk

J Mysterio wrote: »

This is just awful. Resonates personally for me also as have similar situation in my family. How can they treat people like this? UK citizens who have spent a majority of their lives in the UK: contributing with their energy, taxes etc.

https://twitter.com/BettsHelen/status/1393831439158976513?s=20

Today 'Lord' Frost saying EU not reciprocating UK desire for friendly relations. I mean really.

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1393895300130017283?s=20

That first tweet is so weird, I mean for me it makes sense if you have passport of a nation it means you are a citizen of that nation. They would not give a Argentinian a British Passport if they did not fulfill the criteria to obtain the passport. But it seems the UK does this, people can get a passport and not be a citizen apparently, and under Priti Patel who seems to want to outdo the nastiness of May, this means you should take your things and leave.

The second tweet, Frost is the biggest chancer out there it seems. He is denying the deal he negotiated and will use anything he can to show it to his advantage. No context at all with him with his public pronouncements. I wonder if he is like this in the negotiations? He seems very much at home with the current bunch,

https://twitter.com/mrjamesob/status/1393871903270576133?s=20

https://twitter.com/BEERG/status/1393871399824023554?s=20

Sam Russell

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Is that such a surprise the whole society is build on notion that some piggies are more equal than other? They literally have hereditary piggies as head of state and in upper house, with lower house full of piggies who went to same Etonian farm

Didn't Cameron have some dealings with a piggie while at Oxford?

BonnieSituation

J Mysterio wrote: »

This is just awful. Resonates personally for me also as have similar situation in my family. How can they treat people like this? UK citizens who have spent a majority of their lives in the UK: contributing with their energy, taxes etc.

https://twitter.com/BettsHelen/status/1393831439158976513?s=20

Today 'Lord' Frost saying EU not reciprocating UK desire for friendly relations. I mean really.

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1393895300130017283?s=20

On top of Frost's blood-boiling pronouncements you have this article in the Sunday Telegraph today:

https://twitter.com/SebDance/status/1393899564810256384


How can you go through the day being so oblivious to actual reality.

People have been committed for less.

I've said it before here. Best friend's plan was to retire in Portugal. His plan this year was to move to Italy. None of it is happening and he's moving back to England. The last time we talked about this stuff, he was banging on about the Common Agricultural Policy and vaccines.. He used to regret his vote but now it seems he doesn't.

Pandiculation

Well when you look back on the campaign, they were misled in an absolutely shockingly blatant way. Papers and commentators from the right leaning media were all involved in that and cheered it on and much of the middle ground seems to have just accepted what it was told.

Gove here with a rather unique insight into French, EU and International law. It’s unique in the sense that it’s shared by no one who knows anything about the subject.

https://twitter.com/mikegalsworthy/status/1278665768398454785?s=21

It’s all too late now but they were fed utter garbage.

fash

Anyone come across other sources or further information on the following?
.

BonnieSituation

fash wrote: »

Anyone come across other sources or further information on the following?
.

Time to pull the deal at this point. This is getting tiresome.

CelticRambler

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Time to pull the deal at this point. This is getting tiresome.

Not at all. Remember that Johnson signed the deal, which includes specific provisions for the UK to be punished if they act the eejit. They had the chance to walk away with no comeback, right up until Christmas but instead they opted for the "give us a good wallop if act the bollix" treatment. Their choice.

BonnieSituation

CelticRambler wrote: »

Not at all. Remember that Johnson signed the deal, which includes specific provisions for the UK to be punished if they act the eejit. They had the chance to walk away with no comeback, right up until Christmas but instead they opted for the "give us a good wallop if act the bollix" treatment. Their choice.

But then they pull the "We don't agree" card and on and on it goes.

Or a border poll. That also works.

Nody

BonnieSituation wrote: »

But then they pull the "We don't agree" card and on and on it goes.

Or a border poll. That also works.

You're assuming they would vote for unity though; if the vote goes against uniting nothing gets resolved.

Strazdas

fash wrote: »

Anyone come across other sources or further information on the following?
.

And replace the Protocol with what? This would immediately bring us back to 2019. These guys don't seem to be aware that will bring down a load of grief on themselves if they try and scrap the Protocol and force a hard border onto Ireland.

Joe_ Public

If they're still contemplating acting the maggot over the protocol, i guess we can assume they've basically given up all hope of a quick US trade deal, the much trumpeted "holy grail" of many an ardent brexiteer.