Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

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View wrote: »

There are four categories of countries in Europe:
1) EU countries,
2) EFTA countries - which essentially follow the vast majority of EU law, making them de facto EU countries,
3) CEFTA countries - mainly the ex-Yugoslavia ones and all of whom have applied for EU membership,
4) “Other countries” - almost all the CIS/Russian dominated ones.

The U.K. was in category 1. It is now in Category 4.

And, lastly, if the majority of right wing parties back and push an idea for overt nationalistic reasons, then it is a right wing idea.

This doesn't explain how so many left wingers hate the EU.

Being outside of the EU is just an ideology on it's own. And it's perfectly legitimate.

Peregrinus

Yes. Politics may be tribal (and perhaps becoming more so) but tribe is not necessarily defined exclusively by origin or by socioeconomic background.

Sam Russell

hotmail.com wrote: »

This doesn't explain how so many left wingers hate the EU.

Being outside of the EU is just an ideology on it's own. And it's perfectly legitimate.

There are 27 states in the EU. There are 193 states that are members of the UN.

That means there are 166 states that are not in the EU. I doubt there is any unifying ideology among those 166 states. Some want to be in the EU, some do not.

Only one was in the EU and has now left due to an ideology - I suppose you could count that as being a state that has an ideology (to be) on its own.

Seth Brundle

Are the chickens finally coming home to roost?

MPs agree – Brexit deal did not deliver 'frictionless' trade
AFTER FOUR months of pain for Scotland's fresh meat and seafood exporters, a cross party Westminster committee has officially confirmed what they already know – the UK government's Brexit deal did not deliver 'frictionless' trade with the European Union.

Scotland Food and Drink has welcomed the report – compiled by by the House of Commons Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee – as ‘hugely significant’, not least because it backed SFD's own call for the UK government to get back to the negotiating table with the EU and reach a new agreement on veterinary certification. As things stood, said SFD, arrangements at the border with the EU were 'unworkable and hugely damaging' to business viability.

https://www.thescottishfarmer.co.uk/news/19287031.mps-agree---brexit-deal-not-deliver-frictionless-trade/?ref=twtrec

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Sam Russell wrote: »

There are 27 states in the EU. There are 193 states that are members of the UN.

That means there are 166 states that are not in the EU. I doubt there is any unifying ideology among those 166 states. Some want to be in the EU, some do not.

Only one was in the EU and has now left due to an ideology - I suppose you could count that as being a state that has an ideology (to be) on its own.

The point I'm making is that I'm sure many of those that supported Brexit don't identify as right wing.

It's another characterisation manufacturered by EU lovers that annoyed many voters in England.

This is in the context of Labour recovering votes. They need to stop insulting voters.

Professor Moriarty

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Are the chickens finally coming home to roost?

https://www.thescottishfarmer.co.uk/news/19287031.mps-agree---brexit-deal-not-deliver-frictionless-trade/?ref=twtrec

Imagine, they had to set up a committee to come to that conclusion. Ludicrous is too kind a word.

Sam Russell

hotmail.com wrote: »

The point I'm making is that I'm sure many of those that supported Brexit don't identify as right wing.

It's another characterisation manufacturered by EU lovers that annoyed many voters in England.

This is in the context of Labour recovering votes. They need to stop insulting voters.

Many that supported Brexit did not know what they supported because there was no definition of what 'Brexit' was - it was all things to all voters. It was staying in the single market, it was stopping immigration, it was sending home all those Polish plumbers, it was getting out of the EU before Turkey joined, it was whatever you are having yourself. The only thing the Brexiteers had was that there were going to be no downsides to Brexit.

How could that be 'right wing' - it was just wrong headed.

The trouble with identifying voters as 'right' or 'left' fails to identify the difference between 'right' and 'wrong'.

Sam Russell

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Imagine, they had to set up a committee to come to that conclusion. Ludicrous is too kind a word.

They could have learnt all that from following this thread in all its iterations.

Professor Moriarty

Sam Russell wrote: »

They could have learnt all that from following this thread in all its iterations.

So true! An abundance of wisdom...

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Sam Russell wrote: »

Many that supported Brexit did not know what they supported because there was no definition of what 'Brexit' was - it was all things to all voters. It was staying in the single market, it was stopping immigration, it was sending home all those Polish plumbers, it was getting out of the EU before Turkey joined, it was whatever you are having yourself. The only thing the Brexiteers had was that there were going to be no downsides to Brexit.

How could that be 'right wing' - it was just wrong headed.

The trouble with identifying voters as 'right' or 'left' fails to identify the difference between 'right' and 'wrong'.

Ah there we go with Brexit voters being wrong.

That's an opinion you have, it doesn't make it true for the Brexit voters.

I don't think Brexit voters thought Brexit was going to be perfect. The anti EU feelings run hard and long in the UK. They have a different perspective on the EU to us. It's perfectly legitimate.

Leroy42

More positive news for CoL coming from Brexit.

This loss leads to a reduction in taxes, reduction in staff (and taxes), reduction in consumer spending etc.

CoL isn't going anywhere but I have never seen anybody argue that reducing trade is a good thing.

https://twitter.com/mrjamesob/status/1392039940905709569

Professor Moriarty

hotmail.com wrote: »

Ah there we go with Brexit voters being wrong.

That's an opinion you have, it doesn't make it true for the Brexit voters.

I don't think Brexit voters thought Brexit was going to be perfect. The anti EU feelings run hard and long in the UK. They have a different perspective on the EU to us. It's perfectly legitimate.

It is 'legitimate'. It's far from perfectly legitimate. How the referendum was conducted was shambolic and the public were consistently deceived by the likes of Johnson and Farage. Both of these facts degrade any real legitimacy.

Leroy42

hotmail.com wrote: »

Ah there we go with Brexit voters being wrong.

That's an opinion you have, it doesn't make it true for the Brexit voters.

I don't think Brexit voters thought Brexit was going to be perfect. The anti EU feelings run hard and long in the UK. They have a different perspective on the EU to us. It's perfectly legitimate.

He didn't say they thought it was going to be perfect. He said that they were free to think whatever they liked. Everyone had a particular version of Brexit.

Only the very smallest minority actually got what they wanted, so whether they were right-wing or left, it is obvious that they were wrong to pick the leave option as it hasn't delivered.

If one makes a decision, and things get worse it isn't just an opinion that they made the wrong choice.

One only has to look at the Brexit supporting press, the Brexit supporting MP's, to see that no one is happy with what they ended up with. and they all know the problems are really only starting.

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Professor Moriarty wrote: »

It is 'legitimate'. It's far from perfectly legitimate. How the referendum was conducted was shambolic and the public were consistently deceived by the likes of Johnson and Farage. Both of these facts degrade any real legitimacy.

Some people still don't accept leaving the EU is a legitimate opinion to have.

This just comes down to respecting other people's opinions at this stage, something EU lovers aren't capable of.

Professor Moriarty

hotmail.com wrote: »

Some people still don't accept leaving the EU is a legitimate opinion to have.

This just comes down to respecting other people's opinions at this stage, something EU lovers aren't capable of.

In what way is their decision being disrespected by "EU lovers"?

listermint

hotmail.com wrote: »

Some people still don't accept leaving the EU is a legitimate opinion to have.

This just comes down to respecting other people's opinions at this stage, something EU lovers aren't capable of.

It wasn't a legitimate opinion to have when you cant explain the reasons for it that are based in reality though. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Yes fine. If the opinion is baseless and groundless that makes that opinion baseless and groundless.

There are people that think the world is flat. Should I disrespect that or ...

Leroy42

hotmail.com wrote: »

Some people still don't accept leaving the EU is a legitimate opinion to have.

This just comes down to respecting other people's opinions at this stage, something EU lovers aren't capable of.

Again, this is entirely incorrect. People can have whatever opinion they want, but they also need to accept that their opinion is open to be questioned.

The problem with Brexit supporters is that, even now, 5 years later and with the deal in place, they still don't know what they want.

Very hard to accept that a personal opinion should be given credit when they can't say on what basis that opinion is. Why do you want to leave the EU?

If one was to say "I hate the flag", fair enough. But they understand that their favourite football team have colours and flags and that doesn't seem to upset them. Or that Scotland, Wales, England and NI all have their own flags but the Union Jack is supposed to be supported. That the EU flag does not reduce or negate the national flags of member states. Wouldn't be a reason for me but it is a reason. Is it worth it? I would say no and it is perfectly reasonable to ask that person do they understand the costs of making that decision based on their dislike of a flag.

Same with the Sovereignty line trotted out. What does it mean? What does 'getting it back' solve and is it worth it?

Why can't the government be upfront and acknowledge the serious impacts on the economy, on peoples freedoms when clearly that is what people wanted.

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listermint wrote: »

It wasn't a legitimate opinion to have when you can explain the reasons for it that are based in reality though. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Yes fine. If the opinion is baseless and groundless that makes that opinion baseless and groundless.

There are people that think the world is flat. Should I disrespect that or ...

Leaving aside the lies/exaggerations in the campaign, the principle of leaving the EU is a legitimate opinion to hold.

Many people in the different EU countries have this opinion.

I can't believe 5 years on and this still has to be said.

liamog

hotmail.com wrote: »

I don't think Brexit voters thought Brexit was going to be perfect. The anti EU feelings run hard and long in the UK. They have a different perspective on the EU to us. It's perfectly legitimate.

The issue I have with most anti EU feelings in the UK, is that they are not the result of an informed person understanding what the EU is. Year's of manipulation by certain media properties have made the EU the bogeyman, it's why most of the anti-EU arguments in this thread are so easily countered by explaining how the institutions actually work.

I have no problem with people who legitimately want to leave the EU, but they at least need to accurately understand what it is they are leaving, and construct their reasons based on fact.

hotmail.com

liamog wrote: »

The issue I have with most anti EU feelings in the UK, is that they are not the result of an informed person understanding what the EU is. Year's of manipulation by certain media properties have made the EU the bogeyman, it's why most of the anti-EU arguments in this thread are so easily countered by explaining how the institutions actually work.

I have no problem with people who legitimately want to leave the EU, but they at least need to accurately understand what it is they are leaving, and construct their reasons based on fact.

No they don't have to understand what it is they are leaving.

If they want to leave, even for bonkers reasons not based on fact, they can leave.

People have to respect this.

Christy42

hotmail.com wrote: »

Leaving aside the lies/exaggerations in the campaign, the principle of leaving the EU is a legitimate opinion to hold.

Many people in the different EU countries have this opinion.

I can't believe 5 years on and this still has to be said.

If you set aside the lies and exaggerations of the campaign you are leaving aside most of the opinion of leaving the EU. This has been repeated but yes fine leave the EU but think through the plan as to how you are going to do it. How are you going to guard your borders etc. People can have the opinion that they want to leave the EU. People can also have the opinion that it is a stupid idea if you don't have good reasons/plans to make it work.

All we have heard for years is that people have good reasons to leave the EU. No one will say what they are but just to be assured that people have a good reason to punch themselves in the face.

ancapailldorcha

hotmail.com wrote: »

People have to respect this.

Why?

I accept that everyone who can legally vote can vote as they please but not why I should have to show any respect.

hotmail.com

Christy42 wrote: »

If you set aside the lies and exaggerations of the campaign you are leaving aside most of the opinion of leaving the EU. This has been repeated but yes fine leave the EU but think through the plan as to how you are going to do it. How are you going to guard your borders etc. People can have the opinion that they want to leave the EU. People can also have the opinion that it is a stupid idea if you don't have good reasons/plans to make it work.

All we have heard for years is that people have good reasons to leave the EU. No one will say what they are but just to be assured that people have a good reason to punch themselves in the face.

Well grand, you accept that is an opinion people can hold.

The impression given by so many here and elsewhere, that you can't have an anti EU opinion at all.

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ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Why?

I accept that everyone who can legally vote can vote as they please but not why I should have to show any respect.

You must see yourself as a conservative and not liberal so.

Professor Moriarty

hotmail.com wrote: »

Well grand, you accept that is an opinion people can hold.

The impression given by so many here and elsewhere, that you can't have an anti EU opinion at all.

I have no problem with any anti EU opinion founded on fact.

ancapailldorcha

hotmail.com wrote: »

You must see yourself as a conservative and not liberal so.

No, I'm a committed Liberal.

Seth Brundle

hotmail.com wrote: »

The impression given by so many here and elsewhere, that you can't have an anti EU opinion at all.

That's not the case but the vast vast anti-EU opinions expressed here are based on the various lies or ignorance.

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ancapailldorcha wrote: »

No, I'm a committed Liberal.

Liberals show respect and respect people's opinions. (Well they used to).

ancapailldorcha

hotmail.com wrote: »

Liberals show respect and respect people's opinions. (Well they used to).

And conservatives used to respect democracy and refrain from violent coups but imported American nonsense is well beyond the scope of Brexit and the UK.

pleasant Co.

Goodness but this does look like a variation on the freedom of speech chatter that often pops up in crank threads. Say whatever your heart desires, do not be surprised or upset when someone else does the same and points out the erroneous nature of one's opinion.