Donald Trump discussion Thread IX (threadbanned users listed in OP)

kowloon

Kevin McCarthy meeting Trump in Florida seems to suggest he's very much still in the game.

What.Now

Gbear wrote: »

What does that mean for the Democrats?

It's well and good talking about compromise when you're dealing with two legitimate political parties, but how does 1 legitimate party manage a fascist party?

I don't know that there's a huge amount of prescedent for resolving such a dilemma without resorting to war, or revolution later down the line, in the case that the fascist takeover succedes.

There is no compromise anymore and that can be seen from what the GOP has done through the last two administrations and following back as far back to the Clinton administration.

The Democrats need to use this 2 year period to work hard for the fight that is going to come, which will come very soon.

I believe that all is not lost. I think that a vast majority of the 74 million who voted for Trump can be brought back into the democratic system if the Democrats do what they are meant to do and treat people with dignity and provide them with a system of providing them with sustainable jobs and security.

StringerBell

Gbear wrote: »

What does that mean for the Democrats?

It's well and good talking about compromise when you're dealing with two legitimate political parties, but how does 1 legitimate party manage a fascist party?

I don't know that there's a huge amount of prescedent for resolving such a dilemma without resorting to war, or revolution later down the line, in the case that the fascist takeover succedes.

I honestly don't know, as I said there's no good option here for the democrats but I know which way they shouldn't go. I know which way leads to Republican control of Congress in 22 and the white House in 24.

They need to break the cycle, it's that old wasp and frog thing with the lame one winged wasp asking the frog for a lift across the river and promising the frog he won't sting him because that would be foolish they would both perish and half way across the wasp stings him, the frog looks and says why? The wasp says, cause I am wasp.

Everyone knows what the GOP are, and what they will do regardless of what the democrats do so they should at the very least make the good reforms that they can ram through, they will be criticised no matter what, just get in the game.

With some luck the GOP will eat itself alive in time. They have set out their stall, they have shown what they are and should be treated accordingly.

What.Now

StringerBell wrote: »

I honestly don't know, as I said there's no good option here for the democrats but I know which way they shouldn't go. I know which way leads to Republican control of Congress in 22 and the white House in 24.

They need to break the cycle, it's that old wasp and frog thing with the lame one winged wasp asking the frog for a lift across the river and promising the frog he won't sting him because that would be foolish they would both perish and half way across the wasp stings him, the frog looks and says why? The wasp says, cause I am wasp.

Everyone knows what the GOP are, and what they will do regardless of what the democrats do so they should at the very least make the good reforms that they can ram through, they will be criticised no matter what, just get in the game.

With some luck the GOP will eat itself alive in time. They have set out their stall, they have shown what they are and should be treated accordingly.

I fully agree with you. It is so obvious.

Tell me how

Gbear wrote: »

What does that mean for the Democrats?

It's well and good talking about compromise when you're dealing with two legitimate political parties, but how does 1 legitimate party manage a fascist party?

I don't know that there's a huge amount of prescedent for resolving such a dilemma without resorting to war, or revolution later down the line, in the case that the fascist takeover succedes.

I was wondering about this. Ordinarily you might say that the general populace would want to follow parties which at least pretend to be morally upstanding. But Trumps 74M is the elephant in the room here. It's clear from McCarthy going to Florida today and the press release from there afterwards that they still see him as influential and I suspect he sees a path through them towards not being impeached by the Senate.

I think the Democrats should plough on with the impeachment trial with full vigour and disclose as much as they can as to how planned it was and the roles everyone played. Everyone. Roger Stone, the Trump Children, Mike Flynn, Giuliani, Cruz, Hawley, Boebert, Brooks. All of them. Let everyone see this and then let the Republicans vote in favour of Trump so there is no confusion as to their true loyalties.

Biden has been very proactive in his first week in taking steps in relation to covid, climate, abortion and rights topics and I'm wondering if he will look to get all the big topical things worked on as soon as possible so that it doesn't hand Republicans easy campaign material for Nov 2022.

One thing for sure is the Republicans are throwing the hammer after the hatchet in relation to Trump.

aloyisious

StringerBell wrote: »

At this point you really do simply have to accept that the GOP are exactly where they want to be as a party ideologically.

Continuing to wait for them to "snap out of it" or finally free themselves of trump seems foolish at this point.

They are what they are, I understand there are no good options really for the democrats but they would be better served imo just refusing to deal with them on these terms. McConnell s vote the other day was no shock, they do not deal in good faith. **** them for want of a better expression, they are not going to have some road to Damascus moment, they get more extreme and further to the right every year.

Yeah, I have to agree with you. The GOP is so contaminated by Trump it cant even stop calling him president and leader of the party. Despite condemning Trump for his inciting of the capitol attackers, McConnell still voted YEA to try ensure it was on the record he didn't agree with Trump being tried for the same act during his term as president. Then their house minority leader, after accusing Trump of the same incitement, goes on a visit to Trump at his Florida home. I cant see the visit being made so he can ask Trump to rein in the Trump and QAnon GOP members in the house & cool their attitude there.

Neither seem to have the mettle to prevent their fellow party members aggressive behaviour towards others in and out of the senate and house.

amandstu

Is all this the result of impeaching Trump(which I agreed with)?

Has it taken away for now the breathing space the GOP would have had after the election to prepare for life after Trump?

They had to jump one way or the other too soon (and,so far have chosen badly-and to character)

aloyisious

amandstu wrote: »

Is all this the result of impeaching Trump(which I agreed with)?

Has it taken away for now the breathing space the GOP would have had after the election to prepare for life after Trump?

They had to jump one way or the other too soon (and,so far have chosen badly-and to character)

The management seem to have thrown away any power they had to control the all for one Trump-ism infecting the party. It can't have been outside the bounds of possibility for the GOP to tighten up on membership rules and restrict the anti-social habits of some from infecting the mass, a herd-immunity move so to speak.

Midlife

StringerBell wrote: »

I honestly don't know, as I said there's no good option here for the democrats but I know which way they shouldn't go. I know which way leads to Republican control of Congress in 22 and the white House in 24.

They need to break the cycle, it's that old wasp and frog thing with the lame one winged wasp asking the frog for a lift across the river and promising the frog he won't sting him because that would be foolish they would both perish and half way across the wasp stings him, the frog looks and says why? The wasp says, cause I am wasp.

Everyone knows what the GOP are, and what they will do regardless of what the democrats do so they should at the very least make the good reforms that they can ram through, they will be criticised no matter what, just get in the game.

With some luck the GOP will eat itself alive in time. They have set out their stall, they have shown what they are and should be treated accordingly.

The GOP are in a massive bind. Since they embraced Trumpism, they've lost the house, the senate and the presidency.

But they can't ditch him because they'll individually lose their seats.

It's a massive problem but they're welcome to it. I hope to sinks them for a couple of decades or so.

Collectively, as public representatives, they have no morality.

Gbear

StringerBell wrote: »

Everyone knows what the GOP are, and what they will do regardless of what the democrats do so they should at the very least make the good reforms that they can ram through, they will be criticised no matter what, just get in the game.

This has been true for a while. If they can't learn this after nearly all getting murdered by a fascist mob, then there's really no hope for them.

Pelosi is talking a good game and bringing up good points that suggest she's not failing to see the wood for the trees, and if she's doing it, then so are the rest of the party leadership.

However, the further it gets from the Capitol attack, the more the Republican establishment seems to be losing the tiny shred of courage they had, and the more they're closing ranks, and ultimately, there's probably not much that can be done without some bi-partisan support. If the personal cost of supporting Trump is less than the pursonal cost of defying him, virtually all elected Republicans will stick with Trump.

aloyisious

Gbear wrote: »

This has been true for a while. If they can't learn this after nearly all getting murdered by a fascist mob, then there's really no hope for them.

Pelosi is talking a good game and bringing up good points that suggest she's not failing to see the wood for the trees, and if she's doing it, then so are the rest of the party leadership.

However, the further it gets from the Capitol attack, the more the Republican establishment seems to be losing the tiny shred of courage they had, and the more they're closing ranks, and ultimately, there's probably not much that can be done without some bi-partisan support. If the personal cost of supporting Trump is less than the pursonal cost of defying him, virtually all elected Republicans will stick with Trump.

Where it comes to the strings that bind them & him, I almost wish that twitter would re-open his account and let him unbottle what's being building up inside him for weeks now. It just might uncork what they have been holding back on: reverting to the GOP pre 2015 or with him in it's Trump-party mode.

Water John

Absolutely pathetic of Kevin McCarthy prostrating himself in front of Trump.

hirondelle

I know it is on foot of a book launch, but interesting reading:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/29/trump-russia-asset-claims-former-kgb-spy-new-book

I should have added, the book claims the KGB identified Trump as a malleable potential sset 40 years ago, without ever thinking that he might become president some day and they were rather pleased with how much of a gobdaw he was.

Gbear

aloyisious wrote: »

Where it comes to the strings that bind them & him, I almost wish that twitter would re-open his account and let him unbottle what's being building up inside him for weeks now. It just might uncork what they have been holding back on: reverting to the GOP pre 2015 or with him in it's Trump-party mode.

Ordinarly I would say he should be given the rope to hang himself, but it's become clear that giving him a platform directly leads to violence, so Twitter are in a bind.

StringerBell

Water John wrote: »

Absolutely pathetic of Kevin McCarthy prostrating himself in front of Trump.

You often hear of these powerful men who are into cuckolding but you don't often see so many of them out themselves so publicly, over and over again. Himself, Cruz etc have not got one ounce of dignity.

aloyisious

Sky Documentary showed a video about Roy Cohn, the NY lawyer, [titled Bully. Coward. Victim. the story of Roy Cohn] last night showing the links between him and Trump, Dershowitz, Stone, how he got Trump's sister [Mary] made a judge by Ronnie Reagan. Club 54 in NYC was one of their meeting venues. A large part of the video is made of interviews with Cohn and some of his club mates, plus one between him and one of his clients, a NYC Mafia boss who reportedly controlled the supply of cement to building sites. Inferred in the video is that the connection was useful for Trump during a strike in NYC which stopped construction work everywhere except for Trump's buildings in the city.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=roy+cohn+documentary&docid=608000115136596945&mid=2161F1D1346551AFACCA2161F1D1346551AFACCA&view=detail&FORM=VIRE

Quin_Dub

StringerBell wrote: »

You often hear of these powerful men who are into cuckolding but you don't often see so many of them out themselves so publicly, over and over again. Himself, Cruz etc have not got one ounce of dignity.

None of them have any dignity or morals.

Their sole concern is obtaining power and keeping it.

As has been clearly demonstrated in recent weeks , there is nothing they will not say or do in the pursuit of that goal - Nothing.

StringerBell

Quin_Dub wrote: »

None of them have any dignity or morals.

Their sole concern is obtaining power and keeping it.

As has been clearly demonstrated in recent weeks , there is nothing they will not say or do in the pursuit of that goal - Nothing.

Oh for sure, the morals or principles part has been long gone but the dignity, out the window. I suppose in fairness that's been gone a good while too it's just incredible to watch.

Gaetz is another one.

Tell me how

Fairly harsh assessment on the current status of the Republican party from someone who, in fairness, was probably never a fan.

Link

With the electoral eviction of Donald Trump from the Oval Office, Republicans had a shot at redemption and resurrection.

They missed and failed — and deserve to spend the next several years in political purgatory. The chaos now enveloping what’s left of the Grand Old Party after four years of catering to an unstable president is theirs to own. Where conservatism once served as a moderating force — gently braking liberalism’s boundless enthusiasm — the former home of ordered liberty has become a halfway house for ruffians, insurrectionists and renegadewarriors.

............

The party’s end was inevitable, foreshadowed in 2008 when little-boy Republican males, dazzled by the pretty, born-again, pro-life Alaska governor, thought Sarah Palin should be a heartbeat away from the presidency. The dumbing down of conservatism, in other words, began its terminal-velocity plunge, with a wink and a pair of shiny red shoes. Palin cast a spell as potent as the poppy fields of Oz, but turned the United States into her own moose-poppin,’ gum-smackin’ reality show.

...........

To those Republicans who can read: You own all of this. The party isn’t doomed; it’s dead. The chance to move away from Trumpism, toward a more respectful, civilized approach to governance that acknowledges the realities of a diverse nation and that doesn’t surrender to the clenched fist, has slipped away. What comes next is anybody’s guess. But anyone who doesn’t speak out against the myths and lies of fringe groups, domestic terrorists and demagogues such as Trump deserves only defeat — and a lengthy exile in infamy. Good riddance.

From my perspective, the only thing I am surprised with is how such people got to take over the party in such a way. I think this is mostly down to two things, the two party state of US politics, and the use of the media, particularly Fox, to recognize this and to ramp up the rhetoric about anything but the most conservative of conservatives. This culminated in the 'You're either with us or against us' situation last November where, after his abysmal performance as President, 74M still voted for Trump to continue as President leading to reprobates in the party to fight for their affection like a pack of hyenas fighting for the scraps after a pride of lions have finished eating.

Interesting but worrying times ahead. The polarisation is likely to lead to continued swings in all 3 branches of Government with tit for tat legislation to counter that brought in by the immediate predecessor. As someone who would like to see them put their collective efforts and brains in to climate actions, healthcare and education reform (As Biden is trying to do at the moment (at least with respect to the climate) rather than spending most time and effort in pretty vitriolic exchanges between the two sides of both houses.

Recent interactions between AOC and Ted Cruz, and Cori Bush and MTG are entertaining but symptomatic of a very wide divide between them.
Recognizing this, does not exclude the instigators in this with the aforementioned Cruz and Green been just 2 who have taken the rhetoric close to and certainly supporting violence if not outright calling for it.

Nody

Tell me how wrote: »

Interesting but worrying times ahead. The polarisation is likely to lead to continued swings in all 3 branches of Government with tit for tat legislation to counter that brought in by the immediate predecessor. As someone who would like to see them put their collective efforts and brains in to climate actions, healthcare and education reform (As Biden is trying to do at the moment (at least with respect to the climate) rather than spending most time and effort in pretty vitriolic exchanges between the two sides of both houses.

Except one party does not think climate actions are required (it's all an hoax even though every single study that found there is no effect turns out to have calculation or data errors in them and when corrected shows the climate change effect), wants to remove funding for Healthcare (because we're rich so we're good) and education reform only if it means cutting funding for public education ('cause it socialism yo!). You can talk about cooperation but if one party refuses to deal with actual facts because it does not suit them you have to walk away and do what's required anyway.

amandstu

Can we be reassured that the demographic that voted for Trump is declining?

And has even less of a chance of electoral victories next time...

Was this their last chance? (and why they fought so hard against the tide of history and facts)

edit: "fought" being a kind description for what is/was shot through with dishonour

ancapailldorcha

amandstu wrote: »

Can we be reassured that the demographic that voted for Trump is declining?

And has even less of a chance of electoral victories next time...

Was this their last chance? (and why they fought so hard against the tide of history and facts)

I don't think so. I think it's a colossal act of hubris to treat Trumpism as a blip.

US politics seems to have been waiting for someone to tell it as it is to a certain demographic, ie to validate their worst feelings and prejudices. The division, the inequality, the perennial racism, etc... None of this is going away any time soon.

Complacency resulted in Trump in 2016. Let's hope that the Democrats get their act together for 2024 and the Republicans can at least recognise the problem they have.

Ben Done

amandstu wrote: »

Can we be reassured that the demographic that voted for Trump is declining?

And has even less of a chance of electoral victories next time...

Was this their last chance? (and why they fought so hard against the tide of history and facts)

edit: "fought" being a kind description for what is/was shot through with dishonour

It's not just demographics though - gerrymandering, voter suppression, microtargeting etc are all still there to tip the scales for the GOP.

If there was no Stacey Abrams, the Dems wouldn't have the Senate.
They need a Stacy Abrams in every swing state, and maybe a Latinx version for the likes of Texas and Florida to combat this.

dilallio

amandstu wrote: »

Can we be reassured that the demographic that voted for Trump is declining?

And has even less of a chance of electoral victories next time...

Was this their last chance? (and why they fought so hard against the tide of history and facts)

edit: "fought" being a kind description for what is/was shot through with dishonour

A paper published in the Personality and Social Pyschology Bulletin asserts that

Precarious manhood (PM) theory posits that males are expected to actively maintain their reputations as “real men.” We propose that men’s concern about failing to meet masculine standards leads them to embrace policies and politicians that signal strength and toughness—or what we term political aggression. Three correlational studies support this claim. In Study 1, men’s fear of failing to meet masculine expectations predicted their support for aggressive policies (e.g., the death penalty), but not policies lacking aggressive features (e.g., affirmative action). Studies 2 and 3 utilized Google searches to assess the relationship between regional levels of PM and real-world electoral behavior. The use of search terms related to masculine anxieties correlated with Donald Trump’s vote share in the 2016 general election (Study 2) and, confirming preregistered predictions, with Republican candidates’ vote shares in 2018 congressional elections (Study 3). We close by discussing potential sources of variation in PM.

Fits the profile of guys walking around with AR-15s strapped to their chests.

aloyisious

amandstu wrote: »

Can we be reassured that the demographic that voted for Trump is declining?

And has even less of a chance of electoral victories next time...

Was this their last chance? (and why they fought so hard against the tide of history and facts)

edit: "fought" being a kind description for what is/was shot through with dishonour

No, I don't think anyone can be reassured that the demographic that voted for Trump is declining. The signs coming from within the GOP itself at power levels is that they recognize there is a danger to it from both Trump-ists and from QAnon-types annoyed by GOP pre-Trump politics but are not yet admitting it, rather the reverse as if they are scared to face it down as it's a threat to their personal futures.

There's no evidence or guarantee yet that that voting demographic has itself recognized and felt repulsed by the actions of the Trump-ists and QAnon-types stepping forward under cover of the party and Trump to attack the Capitol. Taylor-Greene is a volunteer for that group intent on continuing the attack committed on the 6th Jan. Failing a groundswell coming from within her state against her actions, I cant see McCarthy having the courage to face Taylor-Greene and her allies down in the GOP house party.

In the senate Mitch won't even face down the "fake Trumpers" like Cruz who are using this for their own advantage to the cost of the party, Cruz presumably seeing himself as heir-apparent to Trump as the leader.

Itssoeasy

You can’t just assume the trump base will go away. On Nicole Wallace’s show on MSNBC last night she had on a reporter who went and covered Matt gaetz going to Wyoming to rally against Liz Cheney and from her reporting it’s not even a case of a difference of opinion on a common set of facts, it’s like a cult. Many people she interviewed had their beliefs about trump and nothing was changing them. This reporter removed her mask a few times to talk to people because she said they go angry about her wearing it and wouldn’t talk to her. The quotes she gave were frightening that a group of people in a country like the USA can be this removed from even basic reality.

Tell me how

amandstu wrote: »

Can we be reassured that the demographic that voted for Trump is declining?

And has even less of a chance of electoral victories next time...

Was this their last chance? (and why they fought so hard against the tide of history and facts)

edit: "fought" being a kind description for what is/was shot through with dishonour

Don't think so. The 2 party polarisation and the fact that there will always be a need for an alternative in politics means that if the GOP put up Roger Stone in 2024, he'd still get 60M votes.

Because of Trump getting 74M votes, with his behaviour and position as it was, has told Republican strategists that there is only one way to go. But the likes of Mitt Romney who is more central while still obviously being on the conservative side seems to be in the minority in that party right now.

Their big hitters are Cruz, Graham, McConnel, McCarthy, Pence, Halley, Hawley, Gaetz and they are supported by the attention seekers of Boebert, MTG, Cawthorn who say things the others are mostly holding back from at the moment.

The last few weeks have shown the direction the party has gone on as clearly as a truck with 2 Maga flags doing a uturn on I95 and heading for Mar-a-Lago.

prawnsambo

Itssoeasy wrote: »

You can’t just assume the trump base will go away. On Nicole Wallace’s show on MSNBC last night she had on a reporter who went and covered Matt gaetz going to Wyoming to rally against Liz Cheney and from her reporting it’s not even a case of a difference of opinion on a common set of facts, it’s like a cult. Many people she interviewed had their beliefs about trump and nothing was changing them. This reporter removed her mask a few times to talk to people because she said they go angry about her wearing it and wouldn’t talk to her. The quotes she gave were frightening that a group of people in a country like the USA can be this removed from even basic reality.

To be fair, we're only a couple of weeks out from the inauguration and they were there to see Matt Gaetz - who has to be up there with the worst of the Trumpers in the GOP.

aloyisious

It looks like Trump has lost two of his defence team, Karl Bowers and Deborah Barbier tonight, according to CCN. Bowers is described as his lead lawyer and Barbier was recruited for the team recently. Its being described as a mutual agreement departure from the team.

Itssoeasy

aloyisious wrote: »

It looks like Trump has lost two of his defence team, Karl Bowers and Deborah Barbier tonight, according to CCN. Bowers is described as his lead lawyer and Barbier was recruited for the team recently. Its being described as a mutual agreement departure from the team.

He’s lost another one it seems. So that’s three members of his legal team. It’s been reported that he wanted to argue there was massive voter fraud and that the election was stolen from him. Maybe the lawyers knew that’s not a good legal basis to defend the former president on.