Schools closed until March/April? (part 4) **Mod warning in OP 22/01**

mirrorwall14

harr wrote: »

Our child has additional needs and we are torn as what to do if his school reopens . His regression last year was heart breaking .. he is nearly a teenager and he basically regressed back to toddler state .. that’s not an exaggeration .
You have to factor in also that all other services stopped as well . No speech , no psychological no nothing , all stopped now nearly a year.
We worked so hard for 10 years only to see all that time and effort wasted in the space of 9 months.
I have had people call me irresponsible for even thinking about sending him back and telling me I am putting him in danger.
If the state was supporting us in other areas then yes no need to open special schools.
I have other kids who I am trying to home school all the while trying to do some sort of work with my special needs child who needs 24h care .. life is not easy and not looking for sympathy but trying to let others see what dilemma us parents are in ..
My sons class has 6 pupils and with staggering the times I can see the Reopening being possible with proper procedures put in place.
Our kids are now pawns in a political situation where the two sides are being as stubborn as the other.

I’d just like to be clear here, the unions are not being stubborn-the minister is. She has lied about consulting NPHET about her plans. She has lied about consulting with unions, a meeting which she is an hour late for and only stayed 5 minutes at is not consulting. She is bullheaded and causing massive angst between teachers and the book stops with her. This is her responsibility.

Her plan is genuinely just childcare. There is very in there that will be good for these children. It pits those with milder additional needs (who will now get no support) with those with severe needs. Her plan will pop all the bubbles in a school. Pods will be mixed etc.

Half in half out would have been the quickest, easiest solution for schools but they are insisting that it’s all or nothing which is completely mental.

The book stops with her and the Department of Education. It is their job to get all stakeholders on board. Not to leak everything to the media and try and bully everyone into submission

Locotastic

Choochtown wrote: »

I think it's generally accepted now that teachers are working longer hours at home than they would be if they were in school precisely because online learning has its limitations.

Should be no problem getting them back into their workplaces then once cases and contact tracing are back to manageable levels in 2-3 weeks time.

mirrorwall14

Locotastic wrote: »

Should be no problem getting them back into their workplaces then once cases and contact tracing are back to manageable levels in 2-3 weeks time.

Absolutely. And if Norma had bothered to wait one more week with maybe a return by next Monday I guarantee there wouldn’t have been this angst. Swab numbers are falling, hospitals are stabilising. A few more days to get testing of close contacts back then get schools open and the majority of parents and teachers would have been with them

But it is insane for the government to be saying stay at home because if you leave the house you will get the virus while simultaneously proposing putting our most vulnerable students back in schools with no close contact testing and high community transmission.

beggars_bush

Pigeon Chaser wrote: »

LOL. Teachers delusions have reached new heights this morning. Working longer hours? Get a grip of yourself.....

I know my 2 sisters and other half have said the same
Plans - page by page explanations
Videos
Slideahows
Answering queries
Feedback to each piece of work submitted
Zoom classes
Small group zoom classes for weaker pupils
Staff meetings on zoom

the kelt

paddyirish23 wrote: »

I feel for pain, my son is in a situation similar and has only 6 in the class, hence the frustration. Regression is fast and takes months if not years to turn around.
Online is out and home schooling can't happen as much as daughter also has special needs. Both of us work and have no choice but to take turns being out of work so the government and the unions can measure who's is bigger!
Just get it sorted and get back to bloody work like the rest of us. If parents don't send in their child fair enough but give us a choice!
Imagine doctors, nurses, guards, shop assistants all refusing to go back to work, christ, it's crazy!

The constant comparisons with guards, nurses, shop assistants etc is foolish.

These are all positions deemed necessary to keep the country running. When the pandemic hit teachers weren’t deemed necessary to keep the country running and that was at a time when the visits in the community was way less than it is now. So why should it be different now

I think the teachers are dead right imho, an utterly failed government who last bastion of any success is to get schools back fronted up by a disgrace of a minister who quite literally has no regard for your son’s health and well-being or anyone else’s for that matter hence her attempts to bully and force people back in to the community at the same time all the medical experts say don’t! The same government that has us in this current mess by their bull ignorance in pushing their own agenda and you want to give them another shot to do the same?

There’s more than you affected, we all are.

Pigeon Chaser

Choochtown wrote: »

I said "generally accepted". There's always a small percentage of people without the understanding or experience of the issues who may think otherwise. That is of course their perogative, however ineloquently they deem to express it.

Hopefully the schools reopen soon so. You must be exhausted with all the work you are doing.....


If you think there is a "general acceptance" out there that teachers are putting in more hours these days, you need to step out of your teachers bubble for a better perspective. Come join the rest of us in the real world...

khalessi

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

I’d just like to be clear here, the unions are not being stubborn-the minister is. She has lied about consulting NPHET about her plans. She has lied about consulting with unions, a meeting which she is an hour late for and only stayed 5 minutes at is not consulting. She is bullheaded and causing massive angst between teachers and the book stops with her. This is her responsibility.

Her plan is genuinely just childcare. There is very in there that will be good for these children. It pits those with milder additional needs (who will now get no support) with those with severe needs. Her plan will pop all the bubbles in a school. Pods will be mixed etc.

Half in half out would have been the quickest, easiest solution for schools but they are insisting that it’s all or nothing which is completely mental.

The book stops with her and the Department of Education. It is their job to get all stakeholders on board. Not to leak everything to the media and try and bully everyone into submission

In regards to bubbles and pods. This government insisted that this would keep cihldren safe and it is one of the reasons they say schools are so safe.

Yet now it seems ok to burst them. If a SET teacher is sick in mainstream. The class teacher will have to go into the school to replace them and the sub will take the online mainstream class, which puts these classes at risk on return as the teacher wont be allowed isolate.

I am in a bubble with 4 classes so me working in school would put all 4 classes at risk when schools reopen. Interesting Norma failed to mention this especially when there is a new more virulant strain.

Locotastic

Pigeon Chaser wrote: »

Hopefully the schools reopen soon so. You must be exhausted with all the work you are doing.....


If you think there is a "general acceptance" out there that teachers are putting in more hours these days, you need to step out of your teachers bubble for a better perspective. Come join the rest of us in the real world...

The tunnel vision is clear with some of the obvious questions asked in this thread. Issues that have been impacting people for months now only being realised.

JeffKenna

paddyirish23 wrote: »

I feel for pain, my son is in a situation similar and has only 6 in the class, hence the frustration. Regression is fast and takes months if not years to turn around.
Online is out and home schooling can't happen as much as daughter also has special needs. Both of us work and have no choice but to take turns being out of work so the government and the unions can measure who's is bigger!
Just get it sorted and get back to bloody work like the rest of us. If parents don't send in their child fair enough but give us a choice!
Imagine doctors, nurses, guards, shop assistants all refusing to go back to work, christ, it's crazy!

You speak of regression in your son being fast, I presume in that case he has improved considerably over the last number of years. Leaving covid aside, have you actually thanked the people who teach him and have helped him improve or is it just a case that it's their job?

jimmytwotimes 2013

Locotastic wrote: »

The tunnel vision is clear with some of the obvious questions asked in this thread. Issues that have been impacting people for months now only being realised.

*sighs*

Butson

JeffKenna wrote: »

You speak of regression in your son being fast, I presume in that case he has improved considerably over the last number of years. Leaving covid aside, have you actually thanked the people who teach him and have helped him improve or is it just a case that it's their job?

Nasty comment.

JeffKenna

Butson wrote: »

Nasty comment.

How so? Simple question if he appreciates their work so far as he's on here bashing them.

harr

JeffKenna wrote: »

You speak of regression in your son being fast, I presume in that case he has improved considerably over the last number of years. Leaving covid aside, have you actually thanked the people who teach him and have helped him improve or is it just a case that it's their job?

Terrible comment to a parent, parents have the upmost respect for all the professionals that have a part to play in a special needs child day to day life .
Really is a nasty cutting comment.. and yes truth be told it is their job at the end of the day .. but that doesn’t mean we aren’t grateful for the work they do.

JeffKenna

harr wrote: »

Terrible comment to a parent, parents have the upmost respect for all the professionals that have a part to play in a special needs child day to day life .
Really is a nasty cutting comment.. and yes truth be told it is their job at the end of the day .. but that doesn’t mean we aren’t grateful for the work they do.

You tell me where in that posters comment there was any respect for professionals who teach his son?

Pigeon Chaser

JeffKenna wrote: »

You tell me where in that posters comment there was any respect for professionals who teach his son?

Stop digging chief..

JeffKenna

Pigeon Chaser wrote: »

Stop digging chief..

You know what you're right, perhaps it was phrased poorly. Apologies for any offense called.

Mrsmum

JeffKenna wrote: »

You tell me where in that posters comment there was any respect for professionals who teach his son?

He (or she) is allowed to put his side of the story forward, you know. He is allowed to advocate on behalf of his child. He is as allowed as the teachers to be frustrated and annoyed. Perhaps he feels no one has any respect for his child. There are many sides to this. But whether he thanks his teachers or not is none of our business and completely irrelevant here.

Stateofyou

The HorsesMouth wrote: »

One thing that I don't think has been mentioned is the effect the doom and gloom media has had on this whole debacle.
I had a friend return from Dubai and said they couldn't believe the hysteria among people here.
No one is arguing that this isn't a serious situation we are in and I'm not to say what is safe and what isn't. But from the get go we have constantly seen scaremongering from the news outlets of this country. Which, in my mind, has fuelled this catastrophic, sense of doom type opinion that is out there among teachers, snas etc.
So on the one hand they are trying to scare us into staying at home and basically if you step outside your 5k you are going to see scenes similar to Bergamo in March. Yet on the other saying well children need special education and sure anyways schools are safe.
And people are simply not buying it. If there was a reasoned tone to the debate from the start maybe teachers and snas wouldn't be so fearful in the first place.
School is obviously being implemented in other countries around the EU in a safe manner..it can be done but I do not blame teachers and snas for been so scared when all they are being fed since March is fear and doom from George Lee et al.

Sorry, but I think this post is dripping in condescension and is insulting to people's intelligence. I don't think that was your intention but I'm actually shocked at a post like this. I will admit that at the onset of the virus when we didn't know much but we saw images of overwhelmed hospitals and trucks hauling bodies out of places in Italy, it was terrifying. That's the guts of a year ago now. Most of us are intelligent and rational human beings capable of understanding what the real issues are. I wouldn't say teachers are any more fearful than some of the rest of us. Who realise all we have at the end of the day is our health and our lives and we know what this virus is capable of. None of us want to roll that dice in the middle of a raging pandemic not yet under control with dire situations in our hospitals. Some people have underlying conditions. Some people have children who do. And some people live with those in a high risk group. And maybe all 3! We know what is risky, and what situations are not safe, because science and data. Give people some credit.

Stateofyou

Pigeon Chaser wrote: »

If instructed to return to the classroom by their employers, the teachers need to comply, simple as that. Failure to do so should mean a removal of pay.

What would we do if the Esb workers decided **** it, it's too dangerous to work.. Or the Gardaí, or indeed doctors & nurses?

Like it or not, teaching is an essential public service. Society requires various different arms of the public sector working in order to function. Get on with it, like the rest of us have.....

For the love of GOD they signed up for those jobs that have inherent dangers every day! And stop comparing apples with oranges. Like it or not, we are in the midst of a never before seen global pandemic, our hospitals are overwhelmed, and teachers ARE in fact teaching their students. They are getting on with it like the rest of us are who can and have to work from home. Or are you going to suggest I MUST go into the office as well because that's the exact job I signed up for? Give over.

wirelessdude01

Locotastic wrote: »

Should be no problem getting them back into their workplaces then once cases and contact tracing are back to manageable levels in 2-3 weeks time.

Did anyone say there would be?

wirelessdude01

beggars_bush wrote: »

Feedback to each piece of work submitted

This is the absolute killer. In class you can give whole class feedback.

I had one child yesterday where it took 20mins to give feedback on their maths. That is just one piece of work from one child.

Stateofyou

Pigeon Chaser wrote: »

I think teachers need to accept the reality that WFH is not possible for all. For second level it can be done. However, for younger pupils under 10 and those with special needs, it's not possible. It is a fallacy to suggest that any meaningful teaching is happening for that cohort.
Teachers reject the public health experts assertions that schools are safe and allege data manipulation. Who decides when it is "safe"? I maintain, nephet/DES should make these decisions, not teachers unions and not teachers..

I think the DES -who's actual responsibility it is - needs to accept the reality that a hybrid remote learning plan was actually best in this situation from the word go. We have discussed this here for the guts of a YEAR! It's always been obvious. But they apparently didn't think that was worth looking at.
Teachers aren't the only ones rejecting the "schools are safe" bs line. Lots of parents do. Mike Ryan from WHO also clearly states schools are not safe during times of high community transmission, FFS. 130k people who joined a fb group because the government's spin lines from murky data say this isn't good enough. And Unions, who's job it is to look after their members health and safety in the face of political games which our leaders treat children and our school community like political footballs.

wirelessdude01

JeffKenna wrote: »

You speak of regression in your son being fast, I presume in that case he has improved considerably over the last number of years. Leaving covid aside, have you actually thanked the people who teach him and have helped him improve or is it just a case that it's their job?

Not sure if you are a Mr/Mrs Bloggs or a teacher but either way that is an unacceptable and unnecessary comment which adds nothing to anything except flame things.

WicklaBlaa

JeffKenna wrote: »

You speak of regression in your son being fast, I presume in that case he has improved considerably over the last number of years. Leaving covid aside, have you actually thanked the people who teach him and have helped him improve or is it just a case that it's their job?

Completely irrelevant. Terrible comment lacking in empathy.

Stateofyou

paddyirish23 wrote: »

Maybe I've missed something here but if teachers are worried about going back to school with 20 or 30 in a class with little or no social distance possible why can't they go back and stagger the days for pupils so they can bring that number down by say 3rd?
Less in class and kids get some bit of education all the while social distance can be maintained? I just get the feeling as most parents do that some want to stay off as long as possible?
Am I being bias saying that, maybe but that's how I feel.
Unions not looking for solutions like above doesn't help the issue.

I'm a parent, you don't speak for me and I disagree with that statement. Teachers aren't "off," and if you were paying any kind of attention which you clearly aren't, they are overwhelmingly saying that they miss the classroom, their students and that remote teaching is much more time consuming.

It's an interesting suggestion you make. I will point out that the messaging from government is that they need people to stop moving as much as possible. That's why the schools are closed. The hospitals are currently in a bad place. We also have a new strain that from what we know so far is much more virulent and affects children more. Tony H. just after saying people from all age groups now are being admitted to hospital. I don't think it works now, but it should be looked at when in a position to reopen.

Also, staggered returns / hybrid school models have been discussed here and suggested by schools going back early last year. For some reason DES/Govt don't want to look at that. Too much hard work to figure out? I'd love to know.

Stateofyou

Mrsmum wrote: »

Can I ask a question of a teacher or sna whose normal job is in a special needs school with children who have the highest level of special needs - are you able to work with these children at all at the moment ? If you pretty much can't ( through no fault of your own) how would you feel about offering say the midterm or a week at Easter, when things are safer instead ? If you are somehow working away at the moment, that's fair enough.

What about teachers own families, their children's and spouses needs? Their own mental health and need for a break. How would you feel about giving up your own holidays for your employer to make up for lost productivity this year?

Wombatman

paddyirish23 wrote: »

Maybe I've missed something here but if teachers are worried about going back to school with 20 or 30 in a class with little or no social distance possible why can't they go back and stagger the days for pupils so they can bring that number down by say 3rd?
Less in class and kids get some bit of education all the while social distance can be maintained? I just get the feeling as most parents do that some want to stay off as long as possible?
Am I being bias saying that, maybe but that's how I feel.
Unions not looking for solutions like above doesn't help the issue.

The problem with this is, while the teacher is in school teaching say 1/3 of the class, the rest of the class will be inactive. The teacher can't teach a reduced set of students AND do online classes at the same time, although some might suggest it as a possibility.

At least with online learning the majority of students are active all the time.

Unfortunately many parents only see the problem from the perspective of their kids not being out of the house and in school. It's not really about whether they are learning or otherwise, it about freeing up parents to work or do other things.

SAMTALK

Well wasnt the minister for Education clever

Yes it's time to open schools oh but wait the teachers / sna's dont's agree. I have now handed problem to them so I won't look bad and they will !

Schools should be open as quick as possible, but holding a Zoom call and basically telling sna's teachers etc to social distance and wash hands is not very helpful

If the government want / need to open schools for special needs / teaching / childcare solution for health workers maybe get the vaccine to these places ASAP.

downthemiddle

There is no simple solution to this situation. The fears of parents are real, the fears of teachers are real, the fears of SNAs are real. It can only be resolved by consensus.
It will not be resolved by patronising people or by avoiding genuine engagement. If Norma genuinely cares about reopening schools she needs to listen to the concerns of all partners. She needs to engage in a meaningful manner.
There is no solution that will achieve wholesale approval but there will be no solution without dialogue.

Deeec

At the moment I feel the numbers are still to high to open schools under any circumstances. SNAs and Teachers are right to oppose the most recent plan as it is a complete contradiction to what we are being told which is clearly " stay at home''. I do have empathy though for the parents of special needs kids - there must be some other work around that can be found to alleviate some of the stress these families are under.

Also please can we all remember that we all have different experiences of remote learning. This of course is down to lack of concise instruction from the DES on how each school performs remote learning. People posting that teachers are not working is not correct or helpful in this conversation. The vast majority of teachers are working very hard to make remote learning the best it can be.

Also teachers don't assume that every teacher is working hard and shoot down a poster that suggests otherwise. Remember we are all having different experiences and some schools are still not providing an adequate remote learning service.

Im sick of coming on here and seeing the same comments and neither side accepting where the other side is coming from.