Schools closed until March/April? (part 4) **Mod warning in OP 22/01**

Locotastic

meath4sam wrote: »

Not all teachers would feel this way I’m sure some would be happy to help the kids out.

I get the message most teachers would be against the idea. Would the teachers against the idea be happy if other teachers who may want extra cash or to help out, did return to school during June?

Do teachers not do similar activities during summer like camps grinds etc for extra cash. Would this not be the same.

I'm sure there would be plenty of teachers more than willing to do this for extra pay during the summer.

I think the logistics of organising it would be complex so department of education simply won't bother.

I'd have no problem sending mine to school this summer for an extra couple of weeks. Two years of their schooling has been effected now and I don't believe we'll have any sort of summer this year anyway.

It's just not something that is entertained by some teachers but you'd find many others who'd be happy to do it if it was an option.

jrosen

I’m not sure I think schools should open over summer. I wouldn’t send mine.
However I would like to see some system in place to identify kids who have fallen behind or who need some one on one and be proactive in making sure that happens.
We all know remote is not ideal, we can all acknowledge that some kids have managed better than others, we all accept some home situations are not supportive or conducive to home learning. The kids should not be the ones to suffer.

wirelessdude01

meath4sam wrote: »

Not all teachers would feel this way I’m sure some would be happy to help the kids out.

I get the message most teachers would be against the idea. Would the teachers against the idea be happy if other teachers who may want extra cash or to help out, did return to school during June?

Do teachers not do similar activities during summer like camps grinds etc for extra cash. Would this not be the same.

I obviously only speak for myself but after previous experience of the JP, I wouldn't touch something like you are suggesting with the longest pole known to the human race once The DES are involved in it. They consistently screw over people every year and will use every trick in the book to avoid paying the correct amount out when you eventually get paid in November.

There was a parent in our estate looking for someone to do the supplementary programme with her kids and not one out of the seven teachers in our estate would go near it. Main reason being how The DES consistently mess up payment for these type of programmes.

BonsaiKitten

meath4sam wrote: »

Not all teachers would feel this way I’m sure some would be happy to help the kids out.

I get the message most teachers would be against the idea. Would the teachers against the idea be happy if other teachers who may want extra cash or to help out, did return to school during June?

Do teachers not do similar activities during summer like camps grinds etc for extra cash. Would this not be the same.

I don't think the logistics of it work tbh. Let's say it was brought in and 50% of teachers in my school were willing to do it (that's a very generous number btw, I think would be less in reality). That means doubling the number of children in a class, giving a class size of 50 or 60 children. There's no meaningful catch-up happening there.

I wouldn't be against other teachers signing up but frankly, I think they'd be stupid to do it. If you want to make extra money over summer, July Provision has never been the best way to do it. At least not in any school I've worked at. This would involve taking on huge numbers of children and a huge workload for less money than I can make in grinds? No thank you.

am_zarathustra

Summer school happened in DEIS schools last year for the first time, primary and secondary. Any DEIS band school could run it for 10% of student, targeting those who fell behind, with an emphasis on return to school, socializing, numeracy and literacy. Department website has lots of info on it and it was well publicized at the time. An extended version of this could be run but even the week made a big difference to the kids but uptake was poor. The department are not easy to deal with on an ad hoc basis........or at all

July provision is always available to kids with specific issues, but as the poster above states there is choas when it comes to pay. Once I wasn't paid at all for one kid because paperwork was lost, complete nightmare, 1600eu just not paid, department though this was fine. Payroll is a nightmare and anything outside of the ordinary throws them for a loop. I did the summer school this year, I was paid in December. I don't need the money, I'd have done it anyway, but it's primarily young staff that can do thes jobs so they often can't afford to not be paid for 4 months.

meath4sam

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

I don't think the logistics of it work tbh. Let's say it was brought in and 50% of teachers in my school were willing to do it (that's a very generous number btw, I think would be less in reality). That means doubling the number of children in a class, giving a class size of 50 or 60 children. There's no meaningful catch-up happening there.

I wouldn't be against other teachers signing up but frankly, I think they'd be stupid to do it. If you want to make extra money over summer, July Provision has never been the best way to do it. At least not in any school I've worked at. This would involve taking on huge numbers of children and a huge workload for less money than I can make in grinds? No thank you.

From the comments here not all kids would need the extra days and not all parents want there kids in school. Some parents have there kids exactly where they need to be. As stated before my 4th class child is doing fine, but I’m sure not all in his class are where he is.

Surely in the time between now and summer the teachers and the department could come to an agreement get some resources available to teach in July .

The teachers can highlight the children who would benefit or require the extra days schooling. Parents notified and they decide if they want there children to attend extra school days.

I am not familiar with the July Provision maybe that is how it works already?

Maybe that’s a ideal world I’m thinking of, but is to much to ask for teachers, parents, department of education and unions to come together and provide what best for the kids that have lost out here due to a pandemic. I not looking for this exception every holiday.

deiseindublin

@meath4sam - I'm a bit confused about what you mean by 'delaying' holidays.

Do you want the kids in school in July and then take September off? How would that solve anything.

meath4sam

deiseindublin wrote: »

@meath4sam - I'm a bit confused about what you mean by 'delaying' holidays.

Do you want the kids in school in July and then take September off? How would that solve anything.

Quote: khalessi
Should doctors and nurses forgo their holidays this year to make up for the waiting lists in hospitals that were there pre Covid?


Cannot be compared due to the amount of holidays available to each profession. Not a dig a teacher holidays, but it’s fact teachers would still have 4 weeks off nurses doctors would not.

And I’m sure some nurses doctors have delayed holidays over the past 12 months.

As above post I never suggested delaying teachers holidays, I mentioned that nurses and doctors have delayed there holidays as a consequence of covid.

wirelessdude01

meath4sam wrote: »

Quote: khalessi
Should doctors and nurses forgo their holidays this year to make up for the waiting lists in hospitals that were there pre Covid?


Cannot be compared due to the amount of holidays available to each profession. Not a dig a teacher holidays, but it’s fact teachers would still have 4 weeks off nurses doctors would not.

And I’m sure some nurses doctors have delayed holidays over the past 12 months.

As above post I never suggested delaying teachers holidays, I mentioned that nurses and doctors have delayed there holidays as a consequence of covid.

So once again with the suggestion of unilaterally cutting the summer holidays to 4 weeks. You keep saying it isn't anything to do with holidays but you keep returning to it.

deiseindublin

Ok, so you want them to work extra weeks, but on a voluntary paid basis?

Tbh, that pretty much sounds like July Provision, which is quite difficult to source teachers for. There is talk that it will be greatly expanded this summer so keep an ear out for it in the media. Also, no harm to let your school know that you are worried about child's reading and progress in general. Should schools run JP they will have some discretion on who will participate.

Fwiw, I don't think the majority of parents would like their kids in over the summer, and even if they did it would be impossible to get consensus on which weeks etc. Would probably end up quite low numbers and a bad return on the investment. Targeting JP at those that need and want it would make more sense imo.

Mrsmum

Would it be fair to say, in a normal year, June (for primary obviously) would be a winding down month learning wise. Usually you'd have school tour, sports day, other fun stuff ? and just an easing off the pedal, I think. Maybe with all extras off the plate, I'm just thinking maybe June this year would be heavier on the learning and that may be helpful to those children a bit or alot behind. I suppose what I'm saying is if time is used differently this year, school may be kindof a longer year of learning for children anyway. If that makes sense !

Sammy2012

Mrsmum wrote: »

Would it be fair to say, in a normal year, June (for primary obviously) would be a winding down month learning wise. Usually you'd have school tour, sports day, other fun stuff ? and just an easing off the pedal, I think. Maybe with all extras off the plate, I'm just thinking maybe June this year would be heavier on the learning and that may be helpful to those children a bit or alot behind. I suppose what I'm saying is if time is used differently this year, school may be kindof a longer year of learning for children anyway. If that makes sense !

That would be very true. We would usually have almost all the curriculum covered by the beginning of June. And there will be none of the usual extras this year which is such a pity for the kids. They are the things they remember from school. But you are right in that there will be opportunity for the teacher to continue teaching and learning of different aspects of the curriculum right up to the last day if they feel the children need it.

meath4sam

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

So once again with the suggestion of unilaterally cutting the summer holidays to 4 weeks. You keep saying it isn't anything to do with holidays but you keep returning to it.

1- I was quoting an old post as someone asked a question
2- where else can we make up the time, there is a reason July provision is in July as it suits best
3- if there was an option to make up for lost time when would you suggest?

wirelessdude01

meath4sam wrote: »

1- I was quoting an old post as someone asked a question
2- where else can we make up the time, there is a reason July provision is in July as it suits best
3- if there was an option to make up for lost time when would you suggest?

But you keep harping on about reducing holidays to 4 weeks.

Was your daughter 'behind' starting into SI?

byhookorbycrook

“ Behind” how, exactly? Parents are the primary educators of their children. Education is more that the 3 Rs. Primary children need their holidays, now more than ever .

Locotastic

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

But you keep harping on about reducing holidays to 4 weeks.

Was your daughter 'behind' starting into SI?

It's effectively impacted two school years so I'd imagine a lot of children have missed a lot between this year and last.

For example someone in 2nd year now will probably be the first to sit a junior cert in 3 years by the time they do it.

Basically three months gone from 1st year another four months missed from 2nd year.

Remote teaching can't match what children would normally receive in school, it needs to be caught up on or allowances made for years to come.

So a little one in senior infants has missed a lot from the time they started school.

meath4sam

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

But you keep harping on about reducing holidays to 4 weeks.

Was your daughter 'behind' starting into SI?

I did suggest Easter but was told it was to soon, and not that I am aware off any issues with my daughter other than been a little shy in large crowds. School hasn’t highlighted any concerns

Again do you know of a better way of making up time or helping kids that require it.

I have suggested teachers get paid for extra work. I’m not suggesting you should just work your holidays for the benefits of the kids.

Locotastic

meath4sam wrote: »

I did suggest Easter but was told it was to soon, and not that I am aware off any issues with my daughter other than been a little in large crowds. School hasn’t highlighted any concerns

Again do you now of a better way of making up time or helping kids that require it.

I have suggested teachers get paid for extra work. I’m not suggesting you should just work your holidays for the benefits of the kids.

Proceeding with the Easter holidays is absurd imo and resulting in a hugely drawn out return to school.

byhookorbycrook

Locotastic wrote: »

It's effectively impacted two school years so I'd imagine a lot of children have missed a lot between this year and last.

For example someone in 2nd year now will probably be the first to sit a junior cert in 3 years by the time they do it.

Basically three months gone from 1st year another four months missed from 2nd year.

Remote teaching can't match what children would normally receive in school, it needs to be caught up on or allowances made for years to come.

So a little one in senior infants has missed a lot from the time they started school.

As a teacher , I’m pretty sure Aistear , reading and real life maths are easily replicated in a supportive home. A child not doing work on the life cycle of the frog aged 6 wouldn’t be an educational crisis .

wirelessdude01

meath4sam wrote: »

I did suggest Easter but was told it was to soon, and not that I am aware off any issues with my daughter other than been a little shy in large crowds. School hasn’t highlighted any concerns

Again do you know of a better way of making up time or helping kids that require it.

I have suggested teachers get paid for extra work. I’m not suggesting you should just work your holidays for the benefits of the kids.

As I said earlier. Put all your suggestions in writing to all your local politicians and see what responses you get. No one on here has ANY influence on anything with regards to educational policy, the standardised school year, what programmes are run outside of the school year or who fits the criteria for them.

hesaidshesaid

Locotastic wrote: »

Proceeding with the Easter holidays is absurd imo and resulting in a hugely drawn out return to school.

Or, it’s a handy way to see if numbers are rising and curb them somewhat in the hopes of keeping schools open for longer.

ETA: This will only work if people stick to the restrictions during the Easter hols.

iamwhoiam

I actually think the Easter holidays are needed . Both teachers and children and of course parents had a tough year . The little ones are delighted to be back but are also tired and weary . Its been hard on everyone and a break will refresh them
Now all we need is dry warmish weather and allowed travel outside the 5km
I don’t know about everyone else but I find thr 5kms very restrictive and would just love to see further afield now

Locotastic

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

As a teacher , I’m pretty sure Aistear , reading and real life maths are easily replicated in a supportive home. A child not doing work on the life cycle of the frog aged 6 wouldn’t be an educational crisis .

What about the 2nd year student I used in my example? Not all parents are in a situation where they can replicate what happens in school, especially when it comes to secondary.

Children's education has been severely disrupted, not to mention their social and mental development.

I can't believe that there isn't even a consideration being given to curtailing Easter or summer breaks in lieu of additional pay.

wirelessdude01

Locotastic wrote: »

What about the 2nd year student I used in my example? Not all parents are in a situation where they can replicate what happens in school, especially when it comes to secondary.

Children's education has been severely disrupted, not to mention their social and mental development.

I can't believe that there isn't even a consideration being given to curtailing Easter or summer breaks in lieu of additional pay.

One big flaw in that suggestion, government don't like to pay additional anything when it comes to education.

History Queen

Locotastic wrote: »

What about the 2nd year student I used in my example? Not all parents are in a situation where they can replicate what happens in school, especially when it comes to secondary.

Children's education has been severely disrupted, not to mention their social and mental development.

I can't believe that there isn't even a consideration being given to curtailing Easter or summer breaks in lieu of additional pay.

Schools will identify students who need additional help and provide it to thebest of their ability. As the always do. I am astonished at how many people don't appreciate the fact that educational disadvantage is not a new phenomenon and schools have yearsof experience dealing with it with very little help from the Department of Education.

I am curious as to how the additional school weeks will work in your view? Who teaches? What content is covered? Who attends?

TTLF

small update:

Mocks start tomorrow, fun.... can't wait. Whatever I'll just use it as exam practice.


but thank GOD we're back, you never realise how much you actually missed something once you have it again. I've been in school for 13 hours a day studying afterschool a ton and I'm getting lots of progress done studying

It's all going somewhat well..

Millem

TTLF wrote: »

small update:

Mocks start tomorrow, fun.... can't wait. Whatever I'll just use it as exam practice.


but thank GOD we're back, you never realise how much you actually missed something once you have it again. I've been in school for 13 hours a day studying afterschool a ton and I'm getting lots of progress done studying

It's all going somewhat well..

I didn’t think schools were allowed to have mocks?

Lillyfae

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

I have one kid who hasn't logged onto any zoom calls, even registered with Google classroom and their parents haven't responded to a single email myself and the principal have sent. Broadband isn't an issue as they are constantly gaming with others in the class.

I'll be damned if I'm going back over things just because they didn't even bother pretending to engage. They are the only one in my class who didn't.

Are you blaming a child for having parents who don’t care about their education?

average_runner

hesaidshesaid wrote: »

Or, it’s a handy way to see if numbers are rising and curb them somewhat in the hopes of keeping schools open for longer.

ETA: This will only work if people stick to the restrictions during the Easter hols.

Kids need a break at Easter in fairness. They be working hard at home during lockdown.


Teachers also need the break. Working from home is tougher as you focus more without breaks or interruptions.

JDD

I'm not sure kids - primary anyway - need the Easter break to be honest. My middle child is happy enough to be back at school and is full of energy. Nothing like what she'd be like at say, the last two weeks before Christmas or summer break when they all go a bit doolally.

The oldest, also primary, is due back next Monday. She gets her homeschooling work done by 11am every morning and literally chomping at the bit to get back to school. She misses her friends massively and is bored of the seesaw work. She'll only be in school for nine days before the Easter holidays after not being in school for nearly 12 weeks. It seems absurd.

Now, I realise teachers have been working hard since Christmas, and perhaps they need the break. I won't get into the argument of whether teaching remotely or teaching in the classroom is more tiring - I'm not a teacher so I will take your word for it that teaching remotely is more draining. But if that is the argument, then that should be called out, rather than dressing it up to say that Easter holidays are needed by the children.