Schools closed until March/April? (part 4) **Mod warning in OP 22/01**

History Queen

Locotastic wrote: »

Why should they be vaccinated before others?

Unless they otherwise fall into a priority group making them more at risk from serious illness from Covid then they should wait their turn like everyone else.

Vaccinating teachers as an entire sector means that others who might need it more (and let's face it, it's of benefit to us all that the vulnerable people get theirs as fast as possible) have to wait longer.

It is more beneficial for the country as a whole that we get the people in our health services, the elderly and those with underlying conditions done first.

It's shortsighted of the unions to expect teachers to skip the queue. Can't see beyond the end of their nose.

I think primary teachers and SNAs and special school and class staff have a strong case for vaccination. They mostly can't social distance and/or look after intimate care needs and/or are in close proximity for long periods of time with students from up to 30 other households who are unmasked. I've already said I don't think that I as a mainstream post primary teacher need any further prioritisation but I do feel my colleagues, in the cases I've outlined should be. That being said, looking at the groupings, I can only see them being moved up a step, maybe two?

jrosen

Ive been from the get go pro teachers being vaccinated early. It makes logical sense to me. Anyone to me who needs to work with large groups of people where social distancing can’t be adhered too should have been up the list.

Theboinkmaster

Locotastic wrote: »

Why should they be vaccinated before others?

Unless they otherwise fall into a priority group making them more at risk from serious illness from Covid then they should wait their turn like everyone else.

Vaccinating teachers as an entire sector means that others who might need it more (and let's face it, it's of benefit to us all that the vulnerable people get theirs as fast as possible) have to wait longer.

It is more beneficial for the country as a whole that we get the people in our health services, the elderly and those with underlying conditions done first.

It's shortsighted of the unions to expect teachers to skip the queue. Can't see beyond the end of their nose.

Because they are frontline essential services and being asked to sit in a room with 20-30 kids for 5-7 hours per days.

Because if the government had vaccinated them after medical staff in February then the schools might have been back 22 February or sooner.

Because getting teachers back to school gets kids back to school and their education and welfare is a absolute priority.

Because in the grand scheme of things it's not a lot of vaccines - i think 1-2 weeks of supply would have 100 % teachers done.

Because they are more at risk as cannot socially distance themselves as part of their essential work.

Zaney

jrosen wrote: »

Ive been from the get go pro teachers being vaccinated early. It makes logical sense to me. Anyone to me who needs to work with large groups of people where social distancing can’t be adhered too should have been up the list.

And again, who should they overtake?

I would propose that primary teachers could be moved into group 10 “Key workers in essential jobs who cannot avoid a high risk of exposure to COVID-19“

Secondary pupils are better able to social distance and wear masks, and secondary teachers are in the next group?

Maybe group 8 could be moved down? But really it would be more efficient to just vaccinate this group as everyone else in the long term care facilities are vaccinated as long as supplies are secure. And I want the fastest vaccination programme possible along with prioritisation of those most vulnerable.

Anyone have other suggestions?

Locotastic

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

Because they are frontline essential services and being asked to sit in a room with 20-30 kids for 5-7 hours per days.

Because if the government had vaccinated them after medical staff in February then the schools might have been back 22 February or sooner.

Because getting teachers back to school gets kids back to school and their education and welfare is a absolute priority.

Because in the grand scheme of things it's not a lot of vaccines - i think 1-2 weeks of supply would have 100 % teachers done.

Because they are more at risk as cannot socially distance themselves as part of their essential work.

I think you're missing the point on why schools are closed in the first place and all of the above won't change unless everyone in schools were to be vaccinated.

Schools weren't closed to protect teachers, it's about much more than that. Vaccinating teachers early won't have that big of an impact really.

Theboinkmaster

Locotastic wrote: »

I think you're missing the point on why schools are closed in the first place and all of the above won't change unless everyone in schools were to be vaccinated.

Schools weren't closed to protect teachers, it's about much more than that. Vaccinating teachers early won't have that big of an impact really.

Only because the unions are playing ball - they could have refused to go back to work unless vaccinated.

Icantthinkof1

Stateofyou wrote: »

Let's not pretend that your post is the blanket truth of every neglected kids experience. It's only been 2 months at home, neglected kids would be known to their school / social worker by now.

I am sorry your experience was not a good one in school and please know that I honestly never meant that my post portrayed the blanket of truth for every neglected child’s experience, I only meant that it was my experience.
I was lucky with the classes I was in and with the teachers I had
I understand that schools are not seen as a safe place for every child especially if a child is being bullied/ has/had an unsupportive teacher and you were right to point that out

thomasdylan

Warbeastrior wrote: »

Can I ask Thomas Dylan and Locotastic what your jobs are?

Are ye being asked to sit in a cramped room for 5 hours a day with upwards of 30 children that aren't wearing masks.

Doctors and nurses are more vulnerable yes but they are getting the vaccine. Would you call them selfish if they were 11th on the list and calling for them to get them sooner.

No other workforce in society is exposed to maskless individuals in small spaces.

If ye cant make room for us up the list, fair enough but we shouldn't be returning to school until we get it or community transmission drops significantly.

Children are proven now to catch the virus and spread it as easily as adults.

Would you be comfortable working in those conditions?

Edit: I see Thomas you are a in hospitals from a previous post which means that you are entitled to the vaccine sooner than later which is only fair. However, the fact we are 11th means we as school staff are incredibly exposed for a number of months before we even get near one.

Yeah I work in a hospital. I've worked when there was no PPE, when there was little known about Covid and we were seeing young healthcare workers dying in China and Italy. I've worked when there was **** PPE that had to be taped together. I've worked when there was enough PPE and even with PPE I believe infection rates for healthcare workers were still the highest for any occupation.

I am healthy and in my 30s. The main reason for me to get a vaccine is because it reduces my chance of getting Covid and passing Covid on to patients. Many patients have died from Covid acquired in hospital. I would very happily wait at the back of the queue for vaccination if it had benefits only for me and none for patients.

Vaccination priority should be made with the aim of reducing morbidity and mortality. If you need to vaccinate 10,000 teachers or 1,000 people with COPD/CKD etc. to save one life it's obvious who you choose.

khalessi

thomasdylan wrote: »

Yeah I work in a hospital. I've worked when there was no PPE, when there was little known about Covid and we were seeing young healthcare workers dying in China and Italy. I've worked when there was **** PPE that had to be taped together. I've worked when there was enough PPE and even with PPE I believe infection rates for healthcare workers were still the highest for any occupation.

I am healthy and in my 30s. The main reason for me to get a vaccine is because it reduces my chance of getting Covid and passing Covid on to patients. Many patients have died from Covid acquired in hospital. I would very happily wait at the back of the queue for vaccination if it had benefits only for me and none for patients.

Vaccination priority should be made with the aim of reducing morbidity and mortality. If you need to vaccinate 10,000 teachers or 1,000 people with COPD/CKD etc. to save one life it's obvious who you choose.

Was it you saying you worked in food prep?

thomasdylan

khalessi wrote: »

Why? They absoloutely should be vaccinated

Teachers should not be vaccinated ahead of those who are more likely to get Covid and die from it. Vaccinating teachers now would mean those for example who have schizophrenia or are on dialysis (who are both groups with very high relative mortality rates from Covid) are pushed back.

Vaccination decisions shouldn't be made based on who shouts the loudest.

thomasdylan

khalessi wrote: »

Was it you saying you worked in food prep?

No.

Locotastic

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

Only because the unions are playing ball - they could have refused to go back to work unless vaccinated.

A frontline essential service, as you see it, that has been mainly insulated from their usual workplace over the past year demanding to be vaccinated before returning to their usual workplace? Yes I can see why the unions didn't push that idea.

khalessi

thomasdylan wrote: »

Teachers should not be vaccinated ahead of those who are more likely to get Covid and die from it. Vaccinating teachers now would mean those for example who have schizophrenia or are on dialysis (who are both groups with very high relative mortality rates from Covid) are pushed back.

Vaccination decisions shouldn't be made based on who shouts the loudest.

Well they opened schools on that basis


Correct vaccinations should be based on those at risk and teachers have been shown to be at risk. We have B117 now as the dominant virus we know it is more virulant and vaccinating teachers and I would include gardai and prison officer who are frontline workers after doctors and nurses makes sense

E36Ross

Warbeastrior wrote: »

No other workforce in society is exposed to maskless individuals in small spaces.

You sure about that?

Bus driver for special needs kids here, None of which can wear masks.

I'd wager a Transit is a good bit smaller than a classroom with a lot less ventilation.

Warbeastrior

E36Ross wrote:

Bus driver for special needs kids here, None of which can wear masks.

Well that is an extension of the school set up and deserve the vaccine as well imo.
A lot of SNAs are on the bus as chaperones as well.

thomasdylan

khalessi wrote: »

Well they opened schools on that basis


Correct vaccinations should be based on those at risk and teachers have been shown to be at risk. We have B117 now as the dominant virus we know it is more virulant and vaccinating teachers and I would include gardai and prison officer who are frontline workers after doctors and nurses makes sense

I strongly disagree. Vaccination priority should be given to those likely to die from Covid. This is why people with some high risk conditions have been moved ahead in the vaccination order. Why would you vaccinate a 30 year old teacher with no medical issues when vaccinating a 40 year old getting dialysis three times a week is more likely to save a life?

Locotastic

khalessi wrote: »

Well they opened schools on that basis


Correct vaccinations should be based on those at risk and teachers have been shown to be at risk. We have B117 now as the dominant virus we know it is more virulant and vaccinating teachers and I would include gardai and prison officer who are frontline workers after doctors and nurses makes sense

You are confusing the risk of catching covid with the risk of getting seriously ill from Covid.

Doctors, nurses, healthcare workers etc all come into regular contact with 'at risk' people while doing their jobs.

Teachers for the most part don't. Those in your care while teaching are the least likely to have bad illness unless they fall into one of the vulnerable groups.

khalessi

Locotastic wrote: »

You are confusing the risk of catching covid with the risk of getting seriously ill from Covid.

Doctors, nurses, healthcare workers etc all come into regular contact with 'at risk' people while doing their jobs.

Teachers for the most part don't. Those in your care are the least likely to have bad illness unless the fall into one of the vulnerable groups.

Thanks for that explanation be lost without ya.

As is well known but sure once again with gusto, the child may not get sick but they can make the adults around them sick and last time I looked there were adult school staff in schools

Locotastic

khalessi wrote: »

Thanks for that explanation be lost without ya.

As is well known but sure once again with gusto, the child may not get sick but they can make the adults around them sick and last time I looked there were adult school staff in schools

Yes but unless they fall into a priority group they are not deemed 'at risk' and they should not look to skip the vaccine schedule.

It's about the effects of the illness rather than the chances of catching it.

Teachers are being vaccinated before the 'general population' this already recognises their risk of contracting covid, so I don't know who they expect to bump down the list to accommodate them.

khalessi

Locotastic wrote: »

Yes but unless they fall into a priority group they are not deemed 'at risk' and they should not look to skip the vaccine schedule.

It's about the effects of the illness rather than the chances of catching it.

It has been found in UK have found the rate of Covid infection was 1.9 times higher among primary and secondary teachers than the general population and it was two times higher among special school teachers.

For teaching assistants and other staff, rates were three times higher in primary schools and almost seven times higher in special schools.

So vaccinating teachers should be a thing.

Locotastic

khalessi wrote: »

It has been found in UK have found the rate of Covid infection was 1.9 times higher among primary and secondary teachers than the general population and it was two times higher among special school teachers.

For teaching assistants and other staff, rates were three times higher in primary schools and almost seven times higher in special schools.

So vaccinating teachers should be a thing.

It is a thing, thats why teachers are being vaccinated before the majority of the general population.

So who deserves to be bumped down the list to accommodate teachers if it's still not good enough for you?

Warbeastrior

khalessi wrote:

It has been found in UK have found the rate of Covid infection was 1.9 times higher among primary and secondary teachers than the general population and it was two times higher among special school teachers.

I saw this. 3x higher among SNAs who work with additional needs students.

khalessi

Locotastic wrote: »

It is a thing, thats why teachers are being vaccinated before the majority of the general population.

So who deserves to be bumped down the list to accommodate teachers if it's still not good enough for you?

I just said frontline workers including gardai and prison officers should be done after hospitals NH

CDC just released Ventilation guidance for schools, just in time for Dept to ignore it.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/community/schools-childcare/ventilation.html

Locotastic

khalessi wrote: »

I just said frontline workers including gardai and prison officers should be done after hospitals NH

So you want teachers and these workers done straight after frontline hospital workers?

Have you looked at the list of groups?

khalessi

Locotastic wrote: »

So you want teachers and these workers done straight after frontline hospital workers?

Have you looked at the list of groups?

I have but honestly no matter where teacher go you would have an issue, they should be done sooner then they are listed to be done.

Originally they were 11th and the time scale was Sept Oct then it was reviewed and july August now we have been moved to 12th position, which is daft, as that at best guess is summertime.

It has been shown that the number of cases in schools was not correct, this has also been corroborated in other countries same issues. Vacccinate teachers and frontline workers and all sorted.

astrofool

khalessi wrote: »

I have but honestly no matter where teacher go you would have an issue, they should be done sooner then they are listed to be done.

Originally they were 11th and the time scale was Sept Oct then it was reviewed and july August now we have been moved to 12th position, which is daft, as that at best guess is summertime.

It has been shown that the number of cases in schools was not correct, this has also been corroborated in other countries same issues. Vacccinate teachers and frontline workers and all sorted.

Sooo, if teachers aren't vaccinated by May/June, you're happy to wait till August? (which allows for the double dose vaccines or single dose J&J to be effective before you go back?). This would allow more private sector workers to get vaccinated and back to work.

khalessi

astrofool wrote: »

Sooo, if teachers aren't vaccinated by May/June, you're happy to wait till August? (which allows for the double dose vaccines or single dose J&J to be effective before you go back?). This would allow more private sector workers to get vaccinated and back to work.

Teachers should not have to work a school year without vaccination, they should be move up. No they would need to be injected during holidays otherwise that is a second year without vaccination but move them up

Locotastic

khalessi wrote: »

I have but honestly no matter where teacher go you would have an issue, they should be done sooner then they are listed to be done.

Originally they were 11th and the time scale was Sept Oct then it was reviewed and july August now we have been moved to 12th position, which is daft, as that at best guess is summertime.

It has been shown that the number of cases in schools was not correct, this has also been corroborated in other countries same issues. Vacccinate teachers and frontline workers and all sorted.

Teachers are currently 11th on the list, the only other place they can go is have groups 10 and 11 rolled in as part of the 9th or 10th group together which won't make much difference, as their position won't change much.

Teachers (unless they fall into an earlier group) are being vaccinated after:

1. Adults aged ≥65 years who are residents of long-term care facilities
2. Frontline healthcare workers
3. People aged 70 and older
4. Aged 16-69 and at very high risk of severe COVID-19 disease
5. Aged 65-69 whose underlying condition puts them at a high risk of severe disease and death
6. People aged 65-69, other healthcare workers, and key vaccination programme workers
7. Aged 16-64 and at high risk of severe COVID-19 disease
8. Residents of long-term care facilities aged 18-64
9. Aged 18-64 years living working in crowded accommodation where self-isolation and social distancing is difficult to maintain
10. Key workers in essential jobs who cannot avoid a high risk of exposure to COVID-19
11. People essential to education and who face disease exposure

There is no way that anyone before groups 9,10 and 11 can be moved down to accommodate teachers, you see why these groups are a priority?

It is about the risk of getting very ill that is and should be the main priority. This is and always has been about saving lives and not overwhelming our health service.

Locotastic

khalessi wrote: »

Teachers should not have to work a school year without vaccination, they should be move up. No they would need to be injected during holidays otherwise that is a second year without vaccination but move them up

Teachers have worked in their usual workplace for what three months or so out of the past year?

So at who's expense would you have them vaccinated earlier?

Who on that list do the teachers need it more than?

You expect someone else to make a decision like that when you can't even say yourself who you would have wait for the vaccine so that teachers can get it.

The groups are well thought out and it might possibly help save lives and our health service by vaccinating those most likely to get seriously ill.

khalessi

Locotastic wrote: »

Teachers have worked in their usual workplace for what three months or so out of the past year?

So at who's expense would you have them vaccinated earlier?

Who on that list do the teachers need it more than?

You expect someone else to make a decision like that when you can't even say yourself who you would have wait for the vaccine so that teachers can get it.

The groups are well thought out and it might possibly help save lives and our health service by vaccinating those most likely to get seriously ill.

I have said twice where teachers should be perhaps you missed it.
Let me help all frontline workers should be done together